Should LL Incentivize Use of Smaller Textures By Charging More to Upload Large Ones?

[Qie Niangao]

1 hour ago, Profaitchikenz Haiku said:

But not for clothing items where you would need Bake on Mesh?

No, I think that's the same texture-picker, or at least I use local textures all the time for testing alpha masks to use in BoM.

There are some other uses of textures that I'm not sure about, purely scripted applications such as particle systems for example. There may be a way to reference the un-uploaded local texture by its temporary UUID, hence making it available for script use, but I've never tried to figure that out. On the other hand, textures only ever referenced by UUID can be snuck into SL for free permanently through the web interface to Profiles, as long as it's okay to have it as a profile pic for a while. I guess that little loophole might close when the viewer loses web profiles altogether (which might also b0rk all the creepy greeting boards that ask to use your picture on a poster of most recent customers).

[Silent Mistwalker]

The search feature used for FS' s preferences happens to be fairly robust and finding things using the search is quite easy. So what if you have to take an extra 30 seconds to go through several tabs to find the exact one you want since some share terms out of necessity.

People should be at least a little smarter than the programs they use.

[Silent Mistwalker]

On 10/18/2021 at 1:43 PM, Beq Janus said:

At the moment, those of us who try to be sensible with textures will do this either through local textures or perhaps the beta grid.

Or on our own little OS grid where everything is free! lol

[Jennifer Boyle]

On 10/18/2021 at 10:52 AM, Silent Mistwalker said:

Please stop trying to fix things that are not broken. They should be fixing what actually is broken and completing things left half done (EEP) instead of nickel and diming us to death. LL is not hurting for profit.

When I logon in a region where I spend over 50% of my time with bandwidth and cache size set to the maximum via a 1,000 Mbps connection, and my OS, program files, and cache are on SSDs, and I have this system:

CPU: AMD Ryzen Threadripper 2950X 16-Core Processor  (3493.49 MHz)

Memory: 130946 MB
Concurrency: 32
OS Version: Microsoft Windows 10 64-bit (Build 19043.1288)
Graphics Card Vendor: NVIDIA Corporation
Graphics Card: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1080 Ti/PCIe/SSE2
Graphics Card Memory: 11264 MB

And I watch gray for many seconds after I logon, nothing is broken?

 

 

[Coffee Pancake]

37 minutes ago, Jennifer Boyle said:

And I watch gray for many seconds after I logon, nothing is broken?

nope, that's the systems we have working as designed.

 

[Sammy Huntsman]

41 minutes ago, Jennifer Boyle said:

When I logon in a region where I spend over 50% of my time with bandwidth and cache size set to the maximum via a 1,000 Mbps connection, and my OS, program files, and cache are on SSDs, and I have this system:

CPU: AMD Ryzen Threadripper 2950X 16-Core Processor  (3493.49 MHz)

Memory: 130946 MB
Concurrency: 32
OS Version: Microsoft Windows 10 64-bit (Build 19043.1288)
Graphics Card Vendor: NVIDIA Corporation
Graphics Card: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1080 Ti/PCIe/SSE2
Graphics Card Memory: 11264 MB

And I watch gray for many seconds after I logon, nothing is broken?

 

 

Look you cannot penalize someone for their textures, I mean you can tell the creator to better optimize their meshes and textures. But to penalize them, you might as well tell them they need to follow a strict set of guidelines. And for some creators, that would hinder their creativity. Also I don't think have a dictatorship when it comes to creations would work. As you are telling them that they have to stay within certain confines, that and most creators would opt for the cheaper route. We might as well be in the old days of SL then, with lower grade textures. 

[Sammy Huntsman]

5 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

nope, that's the systems we have working as designed.

 

I think the better option is to offer classes to maybe help designers better optimize their mesh and textures. So we don't run into this problem. 

[Coffee Pancake]

2 minutes ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

I think the better option is to offer classes to maybe help designers better optimize their mesh and textures. So we don't run into this problem. 

Changes to content will have no impact on how the current systems operate. From a data perspective there isn't really anything separating "excellent content" from "my first mesh" from "that thing I found in some 3D object library".

It's all just an list of assets that need to be iterated over, fetched, decoded and shoved on screen.

It's easy to blame content creators as they made the stuff that's failing to load, really we should be looking at the dump truck and delivery driver.

[Sammy Huntsman]

3 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Changes to content will have no impact on how the current systems operate. From a data perspective there isn't really anything separating "excellent content" from "my first mesh" from "that thing I found in some 3D object library".

It's all just an list of assets that need to be iterated over, fetched, decoded and shoved on screen.

It's easy to blame content creators as they made the stuff that's failing to load, really we should be looking at the dump truck and delivery driver.

Even with that, I still don't think we should impede creativity. By basically penalizing them and making them spend more money to even upload a texture. I mean if it were handled like a mesh upload, the costs of uploading textures would be exponentially more. 

[Coffee Pancake]

7 minutes ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

Even with that, I still don't think we should impede creativity. By basically penalizing them and making them spend more money to even upload a texture. I mean if it were handled like a mesh upload, the costs of uploading textures would be exponentially more. 

I agree completely .. the cost to upload as it stands is simply there to act as a tiny brake.

I would still like to see these sinks removed as part of the premium package.

They're not as some believe, a source of income for LL. L$ is a token they create and destroy on the fly, it's not money.

[Beq Janus]

33 minutes ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

Even with that, I still don't think we should impede creativity. By basically penalizing them and making them spend more money to even upload a texture. I mean if it were handled like a mesh upload, the costs of uploading textures would be exponentially more. 

Such schemes would do little in any case. As has been noted here and in threads like this before, a commercial creator cares nothing about a few lindens in the cost as they make it back on their sales. Those it impacts more are the small time creators who (to be frank) we should not be worrying about at all, if you are only selling a few units or, making things for yourself or your RP group or whatever then you are not really part of the problem. 

The problem lies in the economics of supply and demand in SL. To sell many units you have to "look gorgeous" and taking pride in optimisation etc does not typically lead to more sales. A few years ago now I added the LOD preview ability to FS, the idea was to allow people to easily see how badly designed meshes were, I know of many people that (like me) use this as one of the determinants before a purchase. It hasn't really made much difference overall though (sadly). My current objective is to arm people with far better tools to evaluate the quality of items, to easily see what slows them down and allow them to make informed choices. Will it make a difference? I doubt it, but perhaps, just perhaps, a few creators will start to think carefully about how they structure their items. I don't have high expectations, but every little counts.

If we could get to a point where people (consumers specifically) compared items on the basis of looks and efficiency and made informed choices then we'd really have turned the corner.

Edited October 21, 2021 by Beq Janus

[Silent Mistwalker]

1 hour ago, Jennifer Boyle said:

When I logon in a region where I spend over 50% of my time with bandwidth and cache size set to the maximum via a 1,000 Mbps connection, and my OS, program files, and cache are on SSDs, and I have this system:

CPU: AMD Ryzen Threadripper 2950X 16-Core Processor  (3493.49 MHz)

Memory: 130946 MB
Concurrency: 32
OS Version: Microsoft Windows 10 64-bit (Build 19043.1288)
Graphics Card Vendor: NVIDIA Corporation
Graphics Card: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1080 Ti/PCIe/SSE2
Graphics Card Memory: 11264 MB

And I watch gray for many seconds after I logon, nothing is broken?

 

 

 

Not on LL's end.

Your connection is way faster than mine.

Processor    Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-10400F CPU @ 2.90GHz   2.90 GHz
Installed RAM    16.0 GB (15.9 GB usable)

NVIDIA GeForece GTX 1660 Super (6GB GDDR6) 

 

My old tower has a GTX 1050 OC 4GB the CPU is an AMD 3.2 GHz and I never had any issues with SL. So you have to wait a few seconds for everything to load fully. That's not LL's fault. 

There's a lot of info out there that can help tweak performance, including on the FS website.

[Sammy Huntsman]

2 minutes ago, Beq Janus said:

Such schemes would do little in any case. As has been noted here and in threads like this before, a commercial creator cares nothing about a few lindens in the cost as they make it back on their sales. Those it impacts more are the small time creators who (to be frank) we should not be worrying about at all, if you are only selling a few units or, making things for yourself or your RP group or whatever then you are not really part of the problem. 

The problem lies in the economics of supply and demand in SL. To sell many units you have to "look gorgeous" and taking pride in optimisation etc does not typically lead to more sales. A few years ago now I added the LOD preview ability to FS, the idea was to allow people to easily see how badly designed meshes were, I know of many people that (like me) use this as one of the determinants before a purchase. It hasn't really made much difference overall though (sadly). My current objective is to arm people with far better tools to evaluate the quality of items, to easily see what slows them down and allow them to make informed choices. Will it make a difference? I doubt it, but perhaps, just perhaps, a few creators will start to think carefully about how they structure their items. I don't have high expectations, but every little counts.

But thing I have an issue is, you are literally controlling and telling a creator what they should do with their textures. I mean I am all for regulations, but this one can hurt creativity. And Yeah it could hurt them, the prices add up, that and they also have other expenses they have to pay. 

[Coffee Pancake]

2 minutes ago, Beq Janus said:

A few years ago now I added the LOD preview ability to FS, the idea was to allow people to easily see how badly designed meshes were, I know of many people that (like me) use this as one of the determinants before a purchase. It hasn't really made much difference overall though (sadly)

It's not even lead to a reduction of objects rezzed in world at point of sale.

[ChinRey]

6 hours ago, Beq Janus said:

A few years ago now I added the LOD preview ability to FS, the idea was to allow people to easily see how badly designed meshes were, I know of many people that (like me) use this as one of the determinants before a purchase. It hasn't really made much difference overall though (sadly).

It has helped a little bit though as has all the info and advice various users have volunteered on this forum and elsewhere.

[Jennifer Boyle]

I am very gratified that a question from a very ordinary SL resident like me could catalyze such an informative discussion among technical stars like it has.

Thank you, and please keep going.

[Qie Niangao]

11 hours ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

My old tower has a GTX 1050 OC 4GB the CPU is an AMD 3.2 GHz and I never had any issues with SL. So you have to wait a few seconds for everything to load fully. That's not LL's fault. 

Right, but it's really not the user's machine, either, nor the network connection. Texture downloads take longer the bigger the textures being downloaded, even for the fastest hardware on the fattest pipes.

Yes, one big texture beats many little textures (especially after download, when rendering) but there's still a problem that many SL textures are way higher resolution than they'd be if designed by the Central Committee of SL Graphics Excellence, long may she wave.

And in lieu of that Committee, the proposal is an economic incentive to only spend pixels where they matter.

Would it work? Probably, but would it work well enough to justify all the development and drama? I'm dubious.

But would it constrain creativity? Meh. Does Land Impact accounting constrain creativity? Sure does. And it's the nature of the medium now. If texture-upload economics were tweaked, it wouldn't affect the medium as much as the raised LI limits or last tier pricing change.

But if it actually changed anything, I'd be interested to see how creative SL artists would take advantage of the proposed lower fees on very small textures. Wouldn't you?

[Maryanne Solo]

4 hours ago, Jennifer Boyle said:

I am very gratified that a question from a very ordinary SL resident like me could catalyze such an informative discussion among technical stars like it has.

Thank you, and please keep going.

Yes it can be a fascinating place le fora. The ooollldddd, (punch em up, knock em down, drag em out), forum was my second online forum ever and it necroed into this one, which always has a wealth of info from some outstanding contributors.

[Silent Mistwalker]

4 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

But if it actually changed anything, I'd be interested to see how creative SL artists would take advantage of the proposed lower fees on very small textures. Wouldn't you?

Not really since what I make isn't jewelry or anything that small.

My failing eyesight is barrier enough when trying to create textures smaller than 512. Please don't start with the "just reduce the size after". I've been down this road too many times to have any desire to discuss it for the millionth time.