Voice Being Hearsay

[MajikVixen Lorefield]

Hiya!

I saw something interesting on someone's profile the other day, and I wanted to know how debatable or true it is...

Basically, they were a DJ or something, and they said that it's against TOS to record voice in SL, therefore, anything you may want to report in SL from a voice conversation or whatever, is hearsay and not permissible in court or to LL or the like.

I can't find anything that may relate it to a DMCA or anything to make sense of what that brief profile glimpse I got actually said...  https://www.lindenlab.com/tos & https://www.lindenlab.com/legal/community-standards

...Can the smart people here chime in and shed some light on this for me, pretty please?

Thanks! 😁

[Rowan Amore]

5 minutes ago, Chroma Starlight said:

Okay, you need to understand something. There is always a higher authority than any man or document or system on Earth. The terms of service exist as a reflection, an echo, of that authority's will. No matter what any man or document or system may believe or intend, there are things that must never be done, and predation of the vulnerable is without any doubt one of them.

But LL is NOT that higher power.  I think you're again, missing the point entirely and just sailed off on a tangent.  The more you type, the less you make sense regarding the OP.

Edited August 23, 2020 by RowanMinx

[Rolig Loon]

Oh, my.  The poor OP is going to get terribly confused by all of this. 

The bottom line, as Nick and Rowan are pointing out, is that the TOS and the Community Standards (which are our local Law of the Land) are limited to saying what Linden Lab can do, and that does not include punishing you for things that happen outside of SL and its forums.  There are also technical limits to what sorts of observations they can use to decide if someone has violated the TOS. On the other hand, the Ultimate Bottom Line, as Chroma has emphasized, is that there are some things that we all know are just plain wrong (or at least Not Nice).  We shouldn't do them anywhere, regardless of whether Linden Lab has any power to whack us for them. 

The OP, concerned about whether she can expect Linden Lab to punish someone for what's reported in a voice recording, is clearly asking about the letter of the law.  I'm pretty sure that she knows the difference between right and wrong (or nice and not nice).  So, dear OP, the answer is that there are practical and legal limits to what Linden Lab can do, even if you and they know that someone has not been nice.  You can't expect them to accept a voice recording of a conversation in world.  If you're on the receiving end of nasty words in Voice, the advice from Nick and Rowan boils down to "Grit your teeth and bear it."  If you're dishing out hurtful words, the advice from Chroma (and Thumper) is "If you can't say somethin' nice,  don't say nothin' at all."

[Nick0678]

8 hours ago, Chroma Starlight said:

Okay, you need to understand something. There is always a higher authority than any man ...

Sorry i had people moving stuff around and painting my house in RL so didn't have time to look SL forum and internet for replies and such stuff. The weather is perfect with very low humidity levels so the paint will dry quickly and that is good.

Of course there is a higher authority , i won't disagree with you on thtis, actually we were at the beach bar together last night, had some beers and chips and watched Champions League Final, Paris St-Germain vs  Bayern Munich. It ended 0-1.

Told me it wont interfere with SL things because it's rather busy at the moment making sure that 7.5 billion people all over the planet won't kill each other in a World War or something similar, so Second Life users should just read the TOS and they will be fine. Didn't seem to actually worry that much , to be honest the exact words it used were "Well Nick if they don't follow the TOS  they might get banned but then again we are just talking about some pixels and they can make a new account, i don't have time to worry about that stuff".

Feel free to answer and i will forward your reply to that authority as soon as i am done painting the rest of my house.

[Nick0678]

SL doesn't have the ability to Report a Voice conversation, which means you will have to use a thrid party application, that also means someones  words can be modified/edited and that sound clip would have to be analyzed by 3rd party companies that check authenticity of telephone conversations (continuity etc) = someone might be banned from SL only if a Linden actually hears them saying stuff such as hate speech etc otherwise you can't use voice recordings.

Regarding the voice recording part depends on the country. In some countries you could end up in court for recording someone without their permit, in others nobody cares. So have a look at your local laws.

[bigmoe Whitfield]

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Edited August 24, 2020 by bigmoe Whitfield
to many typos.

[Chroma Starlight]

Whether you communicate in text or in voice, or you utilize out-of-band protocols such as a 3rd party IM network, e-mail, telephone call, ground post letter, carrier pigeons, smoke signals, or face-to-face exchange, Linden Lab and this virtual society nevertheless expect you to comply fully with both the words of as well as the spirit behind the terms of service and the community guidelines. There are no technicalities, loopholes, lawyer weasel words, excuses, technical exceptions or justifications. This isn't a game, these are people's real lives, and the standard of your conduct, especially if you're part of a mainland community governance zone, must be stellar. If anyone believes that they have discovered an exception for themselves or some way to exploit this without being caught, they're acting in bad faith, and people acting in bad faith have no reasonable expectation of protection from the harmful intent in their words and the way their communications violate the agreements no matter how they may have been communicated.

Edited August 23, 2020 by Chroma Starlight

[Nick0678]

1 hour ago, Chroma Starlight said:

Whether you communicate in text or in voice, or you utilize out-of-band protocols such as a 3rd party IM network, e-mail, telephone call, ground post letter, carrier pigeons, smoke signals, or face-to-face exchange, Linden Lab and this virtual society nevertheless expect you to comply fully with both the words of as well as the spirit behind the terms of service and the community guidelines. There are no technicalities, loopholes, lawyer weasel words, excuses, technical exceptions or justifications. This isn't a game, these are people's real lives, and the standard of your conduct, especially if you're part of a mainland community governance zone, must be stellar. If anyone believes that they have discovered an exception for themselves or some way to exploit this without being caught, they're acting in bad faith, and people acting in bad faith have no reasonable expectation of protection from the harmful intent in their words and the way their communications violate the agreements no matter how they may have been communicated.

Yeah well .. nope.

If someone you met in SL calls you on skype, discord, phone, whatsapp, viber, e-mail, slvoice call or whatever it's up to you to block them. Linden Lab can't monitor those things and won't do anything about it because simply doesn't know anything about it, it's not their job to get plenty of lawsuits due to banning people based on accusations or whatever and fact is that if you choose to record someone in Second Life to have "proof" it can get you in a lot of trouble.. such as you getting banned instead of them if you post it in Second Life or this forum. So it's wise for people to be careful when ti comes to Terms Of Service.

[Chroma Starlight]

14 minutes ago, Nick0678 said:

If someone you met in SL calls you on skype, discord, phone, whatsapp, viber, e-mail, slvoice call or whatever it's up to you to block them. Linden Lab can't monitor those things and won't do anything about it because simply doesn't know anything about it, it's not their job to get plenty of lawsuits due to banning people based on accusations or whatever and fact is that if you choose to record someone in Second Life to have "proof" it can get you in a lot of trouble.. such as you getting banned instead of them if you post it in Second Life or this forum. So it's wise for people to be careful when ti comes to Terms Of Service.

Why would you block them if none of their individual statements are overtly actionable or cogently offensive when taken in isolation, only in aggregate and over time does the terms-of-service violating activity fully manifest, usually somewhere subliminal in your cognition. Why would you block them if Linden Lab is actively promoting them in their publications as a paragon of what a mainland community governed society should look like and work like because perhaps in part because they've surrounded themselves so completely with earnest but vulnerable individuals who are not fully conscious of their role in the larger pattern of wrongful manipulation at a high and often subliminal level and whom are either completely wrapped around the perpetrator's claws or are systemically driven away by them as dangerous or disruptive "filthy outsiders."  Why would you block them if you believe that a functional society must communicate in good faith, must act like adults and do the difficult challenging thing of forgiving differences in hopes people will in good faith intend to do better, to be better, and since everyone around them seems to believe in them, and anyway, that's your entire online and offline social graph for eleven years, you're not just going to walk away from all your friends and the people you love, especially since you're moving now into the gender transition phase of your life and you rely upon your society to support you, and it's the only one you've got because you're living in isolation in a place that is not non-cisgender friendly.

Do you believe that Linden Labs intends for you to be preyed upon? Do you think they've given anyone this right? They have not. Your sophistry is toxic, Nick, and you are wrong.

 

Edited August 23, 2020 by Chroma Starlight

[Nick0678]

Just now, Chroma Starlight said:

Why would you block them if none of their individual statements a......? Do you think they've given anyone this right? They have not. Your sophistry is toxic, Nick, and you are wrong.

 

Ok you need to understand something. It doesn't matter what my sophistry is and stuff like that.

I just posted a photo from the Terms Of Service and it is very clear what can be done and what can't be done. I am not a judge nor Linden Lab owner and never will be so my sophistry has nothing to do with it. There is the TOS that dictates what is right and what is wrong and it's wise for people to know it in order to avoid putting themselves in trouble.

I will post the TOS link and users should read and learn it so they will know what is allowed and what isn't instead of making personal judgements and assumptions.

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Residents'_privacy_rights

[Chroma Starlight]

1 hour ago, Nick0678 said:

Ok you need to understand something...

...There is the TOS that dictates what is right and what is wrong and it's wise for people to know it in order to avoid putting themselves in trouble.

Okay, you need to understand something. There is always a higher authority than any man or document or system on Earth. The terms of service exist as a reflection, an echo, of that authority's will. No matter what any man or document or system may believe or intend, there are things that must never be done, and predation of the vulnerable is without any doubt one of them.

Edited August 23, 2020 by Chroma Starlight

[Chroma Starlight]

Just now, RowanMinx said:

But LL is NOT that higher power.  I think you're again, missing the point entirely and just sailed off on a tangent.

No, quite the opposite. You don't have to look far to find that higher authority because it emerges from within yourself, whether or not you acknowledge it or listen. Linden Lab is perfectly well in possession of that same presence, there's no need to outsource.

[Rowan Amore]

2 minutes ago, Chroma Starlight said:

No, quite the opposite. You don't have to look far to find that higher authority because it emerges from within yourself, whether or not you acknowledge it or listen. Linden Lab is perfectly well in possession of that same presence, there's no need to outsource.

This is me rolling my eyes at you once again...

 

[Chroma Starlight]

Just now, RowanMinx said:

This is me rolling my eyes at you once again...

Your honest forthrightness is to be commended, people who say what they really think are a blessing for this world.

[MajikVixen Lorefield]

22 hours ago, Nick0678 said:

Where did you find this?

Oh, nevermind, I see when I keep reading, thank you: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Residents'_privacy_rights

 

Edited August 24, 2020 by MajikVixen Lorefield
I got excited and replied before reading on :p

[Rolig Loon]

22 minutes ago, MajikVixen Lorefield said:

Where did you find this?

Oh, nevermind, I see when I keep reading, thank you: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Residents'_privacy_rights

 

Also

https://www.lindenlab.com/legal/community-standards

[MajikVixen Lorefield]

1 minute ago, Rolig Loon said:

Also

https://www.lindenlab.com/legal/community-standards

*nod nods*  I, uh, linked that at the beginning, but you know, it went over my head a bit... Would you mind pin-pointing what paragraph this voice thing relates to in there?

[Rolig Loon]

Just now, MajikVixen Lorefield said:

Would you mind pin-pointing what paragraph this voice thing relates to in there?

It's not really all that long.  One page, in fact.  And right in the middle....

Disclosure

Sharing personal information about other users, either directly or indirectly, without their consent—including, but not limited to, gender, religion, age, marital status, race, sexual orientation, alternate account names (including account statuses, such as whether it is on hold, suspended, or active), and real-world location beyond what is provided by them in their user profile—is not allowed. Except for the purpose of reporting abuse or any violation of policies to Linden Lab, the remote monitoring, posting or sharing of conversations without a participant’s consent are prohibited.

[MajikVixen Lorefield]

1 minute ago, Rolig Loon said:

It's not really all that long.  One page, in fact.  And right in the middle....

Disclosure

Sharing personal information about other users, either directly or indirectly, without their consent—including, but not limited to, gender, religion, age, marital status, race, sexual orientation, alternate account names (including account statuses, such as whether it is on hold, suspended, or active), and real-world location beyond what is provided by them in their user profile—is not allowed. Except for the purpose of reporting abuse or any violation of policies to Linden Lab, the remote monitoring, posting or sharing of conversations without a participant’s consent are prohibited.

Ohh, okay, I see what you mean now.  I was actually thinking of something completely different, which is why I didn't even think about it.  Thanks!