"Linden Dollar assessment"?

[StephanieBell]

Just a reminder for anyone concerned or interested:

Governance User Group

The Governance User Group meeting is a public meeting intended for discussion & education of issues involving Governance such as in-world abuse, Abuse Reports, Forum Reports, Marketplace Reports, etc. Kristin Linden will be your moderator. Please bring your questions & requests. 

Meetings at 1:00pm SLT inworld at http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Havenhurst/84/158/21 

Next meeting: March 17, 2020 

[MarquisdeSadeJustine]

no one should have a large amt on their credit cards just sitting there...

[sashaspooky]

11 hours ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

Is LL able to recover the money they're refunding all of you somehow? Or is it just coming out of their pockets now?

I believe, though could be wrong, that LL is just paying us out of pocket and refunding the lost Lindens to the account owner as well.  Until LL decides to examine the dashboards of the people involved with this fraud, there is very little they can do to trace the stolen items back to the original hacker.  The AVs that are doing the buying are alts of the hacker and most likely make the purchases have it gifted to a second alt AV, then will transfer it over to the "mastermind".  Yesterday, I had a sale which looked suspicious.  When I checked the name of both the account holder and the giftee, neither showed up in the search.  This is very strange, but could just be another attempt by the hacker to cover their tracks.  use an alt to access an account, transfer money to an alt who will buy the items and then gift to a second alt.  once done, both alts are deleted and there is nothing left to trace, the account owner may notice the missing money, but will only have a record of Lindens being transferred.  So unless LL accesses the accounts of the missing alts, there will just be a case of missing money.

[Bitsy Buccaneer]

12 hours ago, sashaspooky said:

I believe, though could be wrong, that LL is just paying us out of pocket and refunding the lost Lindens to the account owner as well.  Until LL decides to examine the dashboards of the people involved with this fraud, there is very little they can do to trace the stolen items back to the original hacker....  So unless LL accesses the accounts of the missing alts, there will just be a case of missing money.

Is this being taken into consideration at all by those who are continuing to list items for the hackers to steal?

[MarquisdeSadeJustine]

LL should be putting safeguards in their system, they aren’t. They refund our money using the 10% MP fee they charge everyone for using it. It’s their biggest source of revenue, I don’t think they want the gacha community to pull their items off the MP, only for others to possibly follow (there is inworld you know), I’m sure they have done the math. Are you hinting, with that comment that we should be concern that it’s coming out of LL’s personal pockets?? Its their business, there are avenues that are faulty... fix the problem. 

[OxfordLennox]

21 hours ago, MarquisdeSadeJustine said:

no one should have a large amt on their credit cards just sitting there...

You are right. Someone told me that person used a 4000 US$ balance of her credit card to buy lindens. It's ok if he was just stealing lindens in the accounts which is not still not intheir pockets. But this is stealing the money from their pockets.

[OxfordLennox]

6 hours ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

Is this being taken into consideration at all by those who are continuing to list items for the hackers to steal?

I don't know what does that mean. Does anyone list their items for being stolen? We just put their items to sell. I'd rather to have my items back instead of lindens to tell the truth.

[Alternate Monday]

6 hours ago, MarquisdeSadeJustine said:

LL should be putting safeguards in their system, they aren’t ... Are you hinting, with that comment that we should be concern that it’s coming out of LL’s personal pockets?? Its their business, there are avenues that are faulty... fix the problem. 

yes this!  We really should be asking LL to put in something like 2FA for every account.  I've seen small companies implement it, why can't LL?  Massive amounts of money move through many of these accounts and it's not as if 2FA is a revolutionary procedure now.  Most people are used to doing it. 

The majority of you guys are so worried about yourselves and getting your money back etc, but are not focusing on the real problem: account security.  If we could rely on LL, we wouldn't have to worry as much about hackers.  Also keep in mind that LL is overturning assessments FOR NOW, but who is to say this will continue?  They won't do it forever.  Like MarquisdeSade pointed out, it's coming out of their own pockets and is probably a net negative.  

Edited March 16, 2020 by Alternate Monday

[Bitsy Buccaneer]

3 hours ago, OxfordLennox said:

I don't know what does that mean. Does anyone list their items for being stolen? We just put their items to sell. I'd rather to have my items back instead of lindens to tell the truth.

If expensive gachas weren't on offer on MP, then this vector would no longer be available for the thieves. Passing stolen money from account to account leaves a trail LL can follow. With money laundering being a RL concern, they have to have robust, legally required procedures to watch out for it.

Whether you intend to or not, by listing expensive gachas all of you are providing a way for the thieves to get around these stop guards.

7 hours ago, MarquisdeSadeJustine said:

Are you hinting, with that comment that we should be concern that it’s coming out of LL’s personal pockets?? Its their business, there are avenues that are faulty... fix the problem. 

I asked questions. I think who is losing out through this is an important aspect to consider for both practical and ethical reasons. It's your choice whether you do or not.

[Alternate Monday]

41 minutes ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

If expensive gachas weren't on offer on MP, then this vector would no longer be available for the thieves. Passing stolen money from account to account leaves a trail LL can follow. With money laundering being a RL concern, they have to have robust, legally required procedures to watch out for it.

Whether you intend to or not, by listing expensive gachas all of you are providing a way for the thieves to get around these stop guards.

What stop guards?  LL does not have any stop guards to deter thieves.  Many games have had this problem of hackers / thieves laundering money through a marketplace ie. Steam, Blizzard, and they have stopped it with things like 2FA or using a separate authenticator process for the accounts themselves.  

You shouldn't be sitting there accusing and haranguing people of using the marketplace as it was suppose to be used.  Instead, be productive and ask LL to give us a way to secure our accounts better.  

[Bitsy Buccaneer]

1 hour ago, Alternate Monday said:

What stop guards?  LL does not have any stop guards to deter thieves. 

In the bit you quoted from me:

1 hour ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

Passing stolen money from account to account leaves a trail LL can follow. With money laundering being a RL concern, they have to have robust, legally required procedures to watch out for it.

Money trail. Passing stolen money from account to account. They have to, legal requirements to prevent/reduce money laundering. The gacha scam is a way of breaking that trail. You're all being used to facilitate it.

I'm talking about one aspect of this, not the whole picture. I'm not accusing or haranguing either. I brought up an overlooked aspect of the situation and have attempted to clarify readers' misunderstandings of it. And my word, you lot are quick to misunderstand it.

[Alternate Monday]

2 minutes ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

Money trail. Passing stolen money from account to account. They have to, legal requirements to prevent/reduce money laundering. The gacha scam is a way of breaking that trail. You're all being used to facilitate it.

I'm talking about one aspect of this, not the whole picture. I'm not accusing or haranguing either. I brought up an overlooked aspect of the situation and have attempted to clarify readers' misunderstandings of it. 

I think you have a different understanding of a traceable trail than I do.  It's not just the money trail from account to account (relatively easy to follow), there's also a huge digital trail that LL can follow (more difficult and complex, yet doable) through the marketplace and to different accounts.  So in no way is the trail "breaking" at any point; it just gets more complex.  

What is the point of talking about one minute aspect about this situation that is completely irrelevant anyways?  You talk about how sellers shouldn't put up their items because they facilitate money laundering.  That's so irrelevant and what do you think the marketplace was implemented for?  For people to put their items up for sale.  

Again, I reiterate, stop being useless.  Be productive and focus on the root of the problem, account security.  If we had account security, you wouldn't be talking about "money laundering" because hackers wouldn't be able to get into accounts as easily and stealing RL money.  Other games have forced users to secure their accounts; LL should do the same.  

11 minutes ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

And my word, you lot are quick to misunderstand it.

Don't gaslight me.  We know what you meant.  Stick with it.  

[M Tater]

3 hours ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

If expensive gachas weren't on offer on MP, then this vector would no longer be available for the thieves. Passing stolen money from account to account leaves a trail LL can follow. With money laundering being a RL concern, they have to have robust, legally required procedures to watch out for it.

Whether you intend to or not, by listing expensive gachas all of you are providing a way for the thieves to get around these stop guards.

241/5000

 

 

 

It is LL's obligation to offer security on its platform, whether in the market or in SL. We pay to have security, and it is no small feat.
We shouldn't have that concern, as we are busy making sales, buying and reselling the items.

[M Tater]

I totally agree with what you said.
Linden has to resolve this issue as urgently as possible.

[MarquisdeSadeJustine]

1 hour ago, Alternate Monday said:

I think you have a different understanding of a traceable trail than I do.  It's not just the money trail from account to account (relatively easy to follow), there's also a huge digital trail that LL can follow (more difficult and complex, yet doable) through the marketplace and to different accounts.  So in no way is the trail "breaking" at any point; it just gets more complex.  

What is the point of talking about one minute aspect about this situation that is completely irrelevant anyways?  You talk about how sellers shouldn't put up their items because they facilitate money laundering.  That's so irrelevant and what do you think the marketplace was implemented for?  For people to put their items up for sale.  

Again, I reiterate, stop being useless.  Be productive and focus on the root of the problem, account security.  If we had account security, you wouldn't be talking about "money laundering" because hackers wouldn't be able to get into accounts as easily and stealing RL money.  Other games have forced users to secure their accounts; LL should do the same.  

Don't gaslight me.  We know what you meant.  Stick with it.  

Well said, and thank you 🙂

[Bitsy Buccaneer]

12 hours ago, Alternate Monday said:

Don't gaslight me.  We know what you meant.  Stick with it.  

Can you take a moment to listen to yourself there?

You're claiming to know better than I do what I meant.

Do you see the problem with that?

[Bitsy Buccaneer]

11 hours ago, Ferba Ferraris said:

241/5000

 

 

 

It is LL's obligation to offer security on its platform, whether in the market or in SL. We pay to have security, and it is no small feat.
We shouldn't have that concern, as we are busy making sales, buying and reselling the items.

You shouldn't have this concern, but the situation is what it is.

Bigger solutions like hacking reduction/prevention will take time to implement. In the meantime, your habits are allowing people to steal real life money from the Lindens. Can you at least recognise that?

[MarquisdeSadeJustine]

2 hours ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

You shouldn't have this concern, but the situation is what it is.

Bigger solutions like hacking reduction/prevention will take time to implement. In the meantime, your habits are allowing people to steal real life money from the Lindens. Can you at least recognise that?

And what “habits” are those? We are allowing people to steal real life money from the Lindens???? Thieves are hacking into established accounts when the people are off-line and using their credit cards to buy lindens. THIS is the problem, what are you not understanding? 

Edited March 17, 2020 by MarquisdeSadeJustine
changed response

[sashaspooky]

I just received an email telling me a full set of Jian animals were sold and sent as a gift to a different party.  Went into SL to search for the account holder. and there is no record of that person.  Also checked the person who it was sent to, also no record.  This is the second time a sale was done this way with no record of either party involved and I never heard anything about the first instance, so if this is a hack job, the hacker has stepped up his game by using 2 alts to do the dirty work and just blitzing accounts for money and moving on using an alt to shop and transfer.  As with the first instance, I am hanging on to the notices incase there is an issue concerning it as time goes.  Just a warning, keep an eye on your sales notices.

[MarquisdeSadeJustine]

18 hours ago, sashaspooky said:

I just received an email telling me a full set of Jian animals were sold and sent as a gift to a different party.  Went into SL to search for the account holder. and there is no record of that person.  Also checked the person who it was sent to, also no record.  This is the second time a sale was done this way with no record of either party involved and I never heard anything about the first instance, so if this is a hack job, the hacker has stepped up his game by using 2 alts to do the dirty work and just blitzing accounts for money and moving on using an alt to shop and transfer.  As with the first instance, I am hanging on to the notices incase there is an issue concerning it as time goes.  Just a warning, keep an eye on your sales notices.

Do you have the names blocked? You might not be able to find them in search if so.

[Sabina Naminosaki]

deleted

 

Edited March 28, 2020 by Sabina Naminosaki

[OxfordLennox]

Hello there. Griefer thief is on board. He just sent me and my friend June Marais lots of gifts from other Marketplace shops.

I am sending the list of the items and from which stores now. Just letting all the people the items are safe and in my inventory. I am waiting for LL response. If they want me to return the items I'll do that. Or I am allowing them to login to my account to return the items to the sellers.

https://gyazo.com/253481fd5f7572719ad619e9b79c1859

https://gyazo.com/9daa50b9aa97b4ecab865ea3323539d5

https://gyazo.com/f92fa56bea571bd383a925343eccfbcb

https://gyazo.com/b823826c00db54ae713e5ab95880e5c4

https://gyazo.com/fbab18cbdf966774a1eef00135f13644

https://gyazo.com/b659a78610efa967b3e7b4fae1a3a0b3

https://gyazo.com/62169f0f5ac5d24cfd6c671b0cc497fa

https://gyazo.com/cd32b202dd76c86c9e0c7a1f765fcc2f

https://gyazo.com/97595c35de973e3dbf206206646acbd4

https://gyazo.com/87fe66f0086115dcd2e120c7fdb658c5

We will handle this together this time. Just stay calm. Thank you.

 

EDIT: I just got a total of 66 pieces.

https://gyazo.com/4a5763001f719c156775608cd0f83ab9

Edited April 2, 2020 by OxfordLennox

[June Marais]

Hi,

i was sent many gift from different stores on MP too, i don't know this person and all items are in my inventory safe now. I am not sending you your items right now, waiting for Lindens decision for further investigation.

https://gyazo.com/06f799b11cf7a4ff1ace1c6cac40231b

https://gyazo.com/e137ed965583ae14c241111d9b0eb375

https://gyazo.com/abe29d14c5e637d955fa243a27b6a70f

https://gyazo.com/34a420900cc88710bbaca38a0f4ebb84

Also this person is using my name is not me : june marais (AyakaReBorn Resident)

thank you

 

[OxfordLennox]

Another gift is arrived from another account.

https://gyazo.com/0eeeee65cea7e94e9a00f5684216df21

[Tanja Byron]

It's just terrifying and stressful for us resellers but I also see shops on MP selling copybotted items gradually disappearing.
They open new accounts and new shops, but they hate work and listing them is a lot of work for them, sometimes hundreds of pages in a few days.

Thank you for your intervention and your commitment, dear LL employees and also a thank you to all honest resellers who work to make it difficult for the fraudsters!