ChinRey Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 (edited) 13 hours ago, animats said: I have to think about this. Chin Rey runs Greater Coniston, which is a nice little town in SL. I've been there and looked around. I've driven through it. It's attached to neighboring sims and fits with them. It's part of the big world. A place with a wall at the edge of town is a prison. Big standalone operations, like New Babbage (13 sims) and Crack Den don't feel cramped. Lionheart has their own continent. Those work. There may be a minimum size for viability. Some of the little-world systems let you have a lot of area, but they would probably choke if you filled them up densely like New Babbage. The Fruit Islands estate is perhaps the best example. It's an area with a conistent and well maintained theme that is broad enough to appeal to many SL'ers, it has plenty of good public space and lots of room for private land and a clear distinction between the two, it's quite popular and it is, according to the owner, intended to be what SL ought to be (in her opinion of course). It's certainly an example of what SL could have been if the social/geographic structure had been planned and maintained right from the start. But you were comparing SL to other virtual realities in terms of space. A 4x4 km simulator is the nominal equivalent of 256 sims. If we consider the oversized scale of most SL builds, it's more like 400-500 SL sims. No continuous (thematically and geographically) area of Second Life is anywhere near that size. But: 13 hours ago, animats said: I got that feeling in SineSpace. They have a nice desert sim with a racetrack. It looks like it goes on for miles, but if you go off the track, you hit the edge in about a minute. So all you really can do is go around the track. That's the problem with those places of course, they are one trick ponies with little or no variety. It's exactly the opposite problem to the one we have on the larger SL continents. Edited December 15, 2018 by ChinRey 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chic Aeon Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 Just wanted to note that the truly huge available spaces in Sansar ARE actual usable spaces :D. While I have not experimented, someone mentioned testing the maximum expanse and spent an hour walking with a friend and didn't reach "the edge". How practical is this? Hard to say at the moment but there are plans on the Roadmap that would (could) make this a viable area size. I can't think of many reasons to have all that space except of course for sailing or driving. Filling that area would take many builders many years -- if it were a city for example. 1867 -- very much a WIP is the only really LARGE area that I know of. Of course I spend most of my time building, not exploring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 13 hours ago, KanryDrago said: 19 hours ago, Luna Bliss said: 1200 Experiences in Sansar now, and no doubt many more that haven't been published or made visible. The number of experiences is irrelevant if no one goes there. The reason I mentioned the fact that there are 1200 Experiences at the present time was not to give proof of Sansar's present viability...it was to counter the notion that animats expressed regarding who builds the Experiences. He said: "in little world systems, who does the building? If you don't have a huge pro team like an AAA game title, who builds up your sim. In SL, the users do". So I was pointing out that typical SL builders (who build in mesh or are good designers with mesh content purchased on the MP) could (and do) have nice spaces in Sansar already -- we do not need to depend on a "huge pro team like an AAA game title" to complete projects. The more complex scripting functionality isn't there yet, of course, to make the kind of games you would want, but there's no reason it can't/won't be. Please keep in mind, Sansar is in Beta. But, thinking further about the concurrency figures and what they mean, what if there were 10,000 Experiences...would the 1/3 cut of sales Sansar would take from the MP purchases needed to build those 10,000 Experiences make Sansar viable even if we saw low concurrency in those Experiences? It's possible, though not sure what the number of Experiences needed would be. This does seem to be their business model as far as we know...to make their money via content sales vs land sales as in SL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 13 hours ago, KanryDrago said: I am sure the people making them enjoyed it, the rest of us just went meh and didnt bother visiting If we're talking about the viability of Sansar I don't think it really matters if SL'rs don't like Sansar. Think about a furniture store that needs a link on their website to a virtual reality displaying their wares, where their customer can walk around the furniture and view it from all angles. Or a museum that puts a link on their website to their virtual reality world that enhances their museum or provides more information. Or a business that needs to train their employees in certain aspects that would best be learned if one felt they were really there, and links to the virtual training areas are provided to employees. Perhaps a musician who wants to enhance their created experience visually, and so has a link on their website to the Experience. Or a fan of a certain time period that wants to create it in 3D, maybe have a community or homes for other fans of that time period. NONE of the above Experiences require high concurrency to fit the needs of the businesses, but they are there to enhance it when needed. And, a platform such as Sansar could provide this service cheaper and easier than other companies could. Of course you have to believe that VR will be a big part of our online future, and there's every indication that it will be. So go ahead and express your frustration at how Sansar doesn't fit your gaming needs in its present state. I agree, it's not there yet -- if I want to play a game I'll head to Oculus or Steam and not Sansar. But for you to say it's a failure at this stage when it's still in Beta, and because it's not exactly what ONLY you want Sansar to be... is absurd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KanryDrago Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said: If we're talking about the viability of Sansar I don't think it really matters if SL'rs don't like Sansar. Think about a furniture store that needs a link on their website to a virtual reality displaying their wares, where their customer can walk around the furniture and view it from all angles. Or a museum that puts a link on their website to their virtual reality world that enhances their museum or provides more information. Or a business that needs to train their employees in certain aspects that would best be learned if one felt they were really there, and links to the virtual training areas are provided to employees. Perhaps a musician who wants to enhance their created experience visually, and so has a link on their website to the Experience. Or a fan of a certain time period that wants to create it in 3D, maybe have a community or homes for other fans of that time period. NONE of the above Experiences require high concurrency to fit the needs of the businesses, but they are there to enhance it when needed. And, a platform such as Sansar could provide this service cheaper and easier than other companies could. Of course you have to believe that VR will be a big part of our online future, and there's every indication that it will be. So go ahead and express your frustration at how Sansar doesn't fit your gaming needs in its present state. I agree, it's not there yet -- if I want to play a game I'll head to Oculus or Steam and not Sansar. But for you to say it's a failure at this stage when it's still in Beta, and because it's not exactly what ONLY you want Sansar to be... is absurd. No one likes Sansar, a glance at the number of visitor stats tells us that even months after going beta it interests no one. Creators can build all they want but if visitors don't turn up then they will lose interest. 5 years work and a maximum concurrent rating of 72 hell there are crap blogs with more followers than that. Sansar is a zombie that needs burying it never came to life. It is an ex parrot You are the shopkeeper here Edited December 15, 2018 by KanryDrago 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 (edited) 32 minutes ago, KanryDrago said: No one likes Sansar, a glance at the number of visitor stats tells us that even months after going beta it interests no one. Creators can build all they want but if visitors don't turn up then they will lose interest. 5 years work and a maximum concurrent rating of 72 hell there are crap blogs with more followers than that. Sansar is probably not going to take off unless VR in general takes off. Once VR is more common and VR applications are more appreciated then Sansar could indeed provide a needed service. Whether they develop the PR needed to accomplish that, or whether they have the funding to complete the goal......these are the worries I have. I don't see the fact that it's taken years to get to this point or that they have low concurrency as proof of failure. We don't know their budget, or the number of staff that would be needed to cause it to manifest sooner (they are not a huge company after all). They started from scratch, not using a game engine created by another company, and while this will provide greater flexibility it increases the complexity so takes longer. And we don't even know if high concurrency is as much of a factor as it is within SL or other gaming platforms. Sansar is not Second Life, Steam, or Oculus...it's always best to compare apples to apples and not oranges. The thing is there are no other apples to compare Sansar too...Sansar is unique. Edited December 15, 2018 by Luna Bliss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KanryDrago Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: Sansar is probably not going to take off unless VR in general takes off. Once VR is more common and VR applications are more appreciated then Sansar could indeed provide a needed service. Whether they develop the PR needed to accomplish that, or whether they have the funding to complete the goal......these are the worries I have. I don't see the fact that it's taken years to get to this point or that they have low concurrency as proof of failure. We don't know their budget, or the number of staff they have working on the project (they are not a huge company after all). They started from scratch, not using a game engine created by another company, and while this will provide greater flexibility it increases the complexity so takes longer. And we don't even know if high concurrency is as much of a factor as it is within SL or other gaming platforms. Sansar is not Second Life, Steam, or Oculus...it's always best to compare apples to apples and not oranges. The thing is there are no other apples to compare Sansar too...Sansar is unique. there are approximately 4 million vr head set users out there....Sansar can muster 72. In addition this is only since Sansar enabled pancake mode so its base users number any one with a reasonably specced pc now not merely vr headset owners. Oh wow that 72 looks even better now...not Edited December 15, 2018 by KanryDrago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, KanryDrago said: there are approximately 4 million vr head set users out there....Sansar can muster 72. In addition this is only since Sansar enabled pancake mode so its base users number any one with a reasonably specced pc now not merely vr headset owners. Oh wow that 72 looks even better now...not Kanry, I don't think you're reading what I write. I've basically said Sansar is creating something that will be needed in the future, and so listing stats of what's happening right now is moot. It's also absurd to say something is a failure that is still in Beta. You keep viewing Sansar through 'SL eyes', or a typical gamers eyes. Sansar is not that, though elements of gaming and SL features will be incorporated. *BTW, pancake mode has always been enabled...it's how I visited Sansar many months (a couple years?) ago. Edited December 15, 2018 by Luna Bliss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 Oh well, Kanry, at least you're not a flatscreener ;0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KanryDrago Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 3 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: Kanry, I don't think you're reading what I write. I've basically said Sansar is creating something that will be needed in the future, and so listing stats of what's happening right now is moot. It's also absurd to say something is a failure that is still in Beta. You keep viewing Sansar through 'SL eyes', or a typical gamers eyes. Sansar is not that, though elements of gaming and SL features will be incorporated. *BTW, pancake mode has always been enabled...it's how I visited Sansar many months (a couple years?) ago. No I am viewing sansar through the eyes of someone who loves vr. Sansar isnt needed for anything it is crap 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, KanryDrago said: No I am viewing sansar through the eyes of someone who loves vr. Sansar isnt needed for anything it is crap Sansar is not needed for YOU, but it could be needed for other applications facilitated by Sansar. Did you read above where I listed various VR applications it could be used for (and already is being used for....VR is big in the educational and medical industries) ? Edited December 15, 2018 by Luna Bliss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KanryDrago Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 6 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: Oh well, Kanry, at least you're not a flatscreener ;0 Here is a challenge for you so you can show people I am wrong Tell us who you think are going to be the long term consumers (not creators) of Sansar and tell us why you believe that they will goto Sansar for that in a way that is not easily rebutted for example 1) Gamers Rebuttal: There are loads and loads of custom made games out there for both pancake and VR that have better graphics, better stories and better mechanics than anything Sansar will ever provide Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KanryDrago Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: Sansar is not needed for YOU, but it could be needed for other applications facilitated by Sansar. Did you read above where I listed various VR applications it could be used for (and already is being used for....VR is big in the educational and medical industries) ? Yes there is a lot of educational stuff for VR guess what they are writing their own custom stuff not trying to use Sansar, for much the same reason people dont use wordpress to provide study courses Same with medical software. VR apps are easy to create with unity and unreal engine now supporting it. People dont need Sansar to do it and like most jack of all trades pieces of software it is master of none. You really think that someone is going to create surgical software in Sansar? Edited December 15, 2018 by KanryDrago 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 1 minute ago, KanryDrago said: Here is a challenge for you so you can show people I am wrong Tell us who you think are going to be the long term consumers (not creators) of Sansar and tell us why you believe that they will goto Sansar for that in a way that is not easily rebutted for example 1) Gamers Rebuttal: There are loads and loads of custom made games out there for both pancake and VR that have better graphics, better stories and better mechanics than anything Sansar will ever provide I've already provided links to websites that demonstrate how VR is being used by education, medicine, and the arts. Now why they would go to Sansar….if it's a cheaper & easier solution than going to a big name company who creates VR for businesses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 3 minutes ago, KanryDrago said: Yes there is a lot of educational stuff for VR guess what they are writing their own custom stuff not trying to use Sansar Why would they be using Sansar? Sansar is not ready. But when it is, and if it's cheaper, I can imagine them utilizing Sansar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KanryDrago Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said: I've already provided links to websites that demonstrate how VR is being used by education, medicine, and the arts. Now why they would go to Sansar….if it's a cheaper & easier solution than going to a big name company who creates VR for businesses. I dont dispute VR will be used for these things what I am telling you is that Sansar won't be. There is plenty of educational vr apps already out, there is even a surgery app out on oculus. Guess what they didnt use Sansar. Why because Sansar is a one size fits no one solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 4 minutes ago, KanryDrago said: jack of all trades pieces of software it is master of none Like I've said before, Sansar does not need to be the best. It just needs a decent amount of people to see it as a solution, and have the right price point. Not all solutions will need to be complex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KanryDrago Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said: Why would they be using Sansar? Sansar is not ready. But when it is, and if it's cheaper, I can imagine them utilizing Sansar. oh ffs, Sansar is in beta....Beta means this is what we plan to release with a few tweaks. The labs think Sansar is more or less ready Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 2 minutes ago, KanryDrago said: there is even a surgery app out on oculus. Guess what they didnt use Sansar. Why because Sansar is a one size fits no one solution. Sansar is in Beta. Sansar is in Beta. Sansar is in Beta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KanryDrago Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 Just now, Luna Bliss said: Like I've said before, Sansar does not need to be the best. It just needs a decent amount of people to see it as a solution, and have the right price point. Not all solutions will need to be complex. yes and absolutely no one sees it as a solution. If they did you would have some evidence of it. All you have instead is a slowly dwindling number of SL creators playing with it and the odd user drifting in looking around and not coming back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 1 minute ago, KanryDrago said: oh ffs, Sansar is in beta....Beta means this is what we plan to release with a few tweaks. The labs think Sansar is more or less ready never heard that definition of 'Beta', and never heard LL say Sansar is more or less ready Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KanryDrago Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said: Sansar is in Beta. Sansar is in Beta. Sansar is in Beta. See above Beta = ready all but a few minor tweaks 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KanryDrago Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: never heard that definition of 'Beta', and never heard LL say Sansar is more or less ready Would anyone care to weigh in and confirm for Luna the meaning of Beta? from wikipedia Beta, named after the second letter of the Greek alphabet, is the software development phase following alpha. Software in the beta stage is also known as betaware.[3] Beta phase generally begins when the software is feature complete but likely to contain a number of known or unknown bugs. Note the words feature complete Edited December 15, 2018 by KanryDrago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 1 minute ago, KanryDrago said: yes and absolutely no one sees it as a solution. If they did you would have some evidence of it. Why would there be evidence of it at this point? Are you privy to some time-frame the rest of us don't have access to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solar Legion Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 (edited) Quote See above Beta = ready all but a few minor tweaks No Kanry, that is Public Beta. Which Sansar is not ready for but was pushed to anyway. Now, get a room you two. Edited December 15, 2018 by Solar Legion 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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