Second Life on Steam?

[animats]

"Old stuff" is not a big problem in SL. Marketplace, though... I hate it when I click on "see product in world" and I'm falling in midair because some merchant's skybox has been deleted, or I'm inside someone's house, or I'm wandering around somewhere looking for the store, or the teleport fails because the sim is gone. That's just lame. Marketplace needs an automated system which detects when the destination of an SL link changes ownership and asks the merchant to confirm that the link is still valid.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

24 minutes ago, Pamela Galli said:

As I said,  common knowledge for those who make the slightest effort to be well informed

Pamela, I think, with respect, that you much overstate the ease of access to this kind of information.

To find information about things I've been doing (customizing my avatar, doing photography, etc.), I've had to

• Post questions on the forums
• Watch YouTube videos
• Wade through a half dozen independent users' blogs
• Look at the SL wiki
• Ask questions of in-world groups (such as the Genus, Slink, and Firestorm support groups)

And unlike a real noobie, I walked in already aware of the existence of these kinds of resources.

Having to work that hard to find the answer to what is often a pretty basic question seems to me much more than making the "slightest effort."

Edited December 12, 2018 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Scylla Rhiadra]

2 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

It's undoubtedly true that SL's reputation with the general public suffers because trolling/griefing YouTubers get more attention than they deserve -- "more than they deserve" exactly because what they're showing is so rare and utterly unrepresentative of what one actually experiences in Second Life. Not sure what's to be done about that -- can't really reduce trolling and griefing much lower than the negligible level it already is, so maybe try to popularize videos of more positive SL experiences. A bit dog-bites-man, though, so it's hard not to end up sappy.

Yes. LL's PR team -- does LL even have a PR team??? -- could do waaaaay better than they have done marketing SL, and in raising its positive profile in the media. Most of the best video, text, and image I've seen that communicate the positive potential of SL have come, unsurprisingly, from users (and I don't mean Drax). At the VERY least, LL could push this stuff harder.

 

2 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Also, it surely was the case that SL was once more crowded, and that did indeed create a very different vibe. There was a time when the Lab simply couldn't print enough Mainland nor Estate sims to meet demand. (Yeah, I'm ancient. So sue me.) Having all those folks bumping into each other all the time really was exciting. Left to our own devices, though, with land relatively abundant, folks spread out very thin on the ground. Gatherings still happen of course -- clubs are still a thing -- but SL is not exactly the social platform in the way we expected it to be.

It's inarguable that use and concurrency are down, even if it seems to have stabilized somewhat in recent years.

But I also think there has been a culture change in SL. When I started in 2008, I found no fewer than three dynamic, popular, and welcoming chat sims within my first week. These weren't clubs or groups, they were sims designed as chat places, and each developed a strong and really worthwhile community.

I'm sure such still exist, somewhere, but I'm damned if I've been able to find them. Such communities now seem be purely "special interest" ones, built around some variety of sexuality or identity. And even the clubs . . . I was at one of the most popular blues clubs in SL last night, a place I also used to frequent somewhat in 2013-14. Four years ago, it was a chatty, welcoming place. Last night -- and this is not an aberration, because it's been my fourth visit there in a month -- there were over 40 avatars there. I was there for nearly an hour before I heard one single word in open chat. The place was a frickin' morgue, populated with well-dressed, silent, animated corpses.

What the hell has happened to SL as a social medium????

2 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Finally (for now), the platform has evolved enough to make a pretty baffling mix of available products both on Marketplace and in-world. Lots of stuff is downright obsolete, but even stuff that's new is insanely hyper-specialized. Imagine a newbie trying to get a nicer texture on his avatar. First he has to find out that's called a "skin" -- and then he goes skin shopping. He comes upon a very nice looking face skin. Oh, but it only works on a particular brand and model of mesh head. And there's no corresponding body skin for the mesh body he's been saving to buy. Eventually he discovers the "skin" concept in SL is best represented by a very sparsely populated multidimensional array of incompatibilities through which folks have discovered maybe one or two happy paths, qualifying them as experts to their skin-shopping friends. Now explain Bento animations and why that facial AO script that was standard a few years ago doesn't actually do anything anymore. It's not merely difficult to learn, it's damned near impossible.

Qie said much the same thing a while ago, and I seconded it then: I'm going to underline and bold it again because it's so important.

When I came back two months ago, I had the advantage of an excellent understanding of the system avatar, attachments, editing objects, and rigged and unrigged mesh clothing and hair. I was also very familiar with the UI of the two most popular viewers in SL. I knew how to do all the basic stuff, and a fair amount that isn't so basic.

I was still completely confounded by the complexity of mesh heads, limbs, and bodies, fit mesh, appliers and layers, all available in widely different forms and employing some really different capabilities and user tools. I'm all mesh now, with two mesh heads to my name, and I'm still trying to make everything work properly together.

And then there's the price point issue: given the cost of a complete mesh "look" (body, head, clothing, Bento-enabled AO, makeup and eyebrow appliers, etc.), many new users are leery about jumping in head-first: just trying to match mesh applier skins with system skins can be a huge deal.

Qie if anything understates the problem: the current "system" (she said laughingly) for avatar customization is absolutely INSANE. Surely, for most games and MMOs, creating an avatar look is treated as a brief, simple, but enjoyable task that merely prefaces the play that follows? Yes, I know that there are many people here for whom avatar customization and style is the main point of the platform. But here, just putting together an avatar that isn't a public embarrassment can take a noobie days, if not weeks. And that's assuming that you know enough to look for help from somewhere like the forums.

There has been a tendency for people to respond to these kinds of criticism with the implication that those who give up on learning this utterly byzantine mish-mash of arcane technologies for making yourself look half-decent are "soft," need instant gratification, or are not made of the "right stuff" for SL.

SL requires patience! And grit! And smarts!

It all reminds me a little of one of those semi-legendary university courses, where you are asked to look to the person to your left, and then to the right, and told that only one of you three will survive until spring. Is this really the way to run a platform????

Maybe anyone who survives the first two weeks, and the avatar customization process, should be awarded the special Elizabeth Warren Badge, with "She Persevered!" writ in gold across it.

Edited December 12, 2018 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Pamela Galli]

28 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

• Post questions on the forums
• Watch YouTube videos
• Wade through a half dozen independent users' blogs
• Look at the SL wiki
• Ask questions of in-world groups (such as the Genus, Slink, and Firestorm support groups)

 And unlike a real noobie, I walked in already aware of the existence of these kinds of resources.

I learned most everything  I know by asking in the forums (if not on Google). I have been told that no one who runs a business could really be as dumb as I am. What I did not do is make a long list of basic things I have learned and presume forum members and Lindens have not, and post it in a random thread. If I wanted to post that kind of thing I would start a thread like the one Selene recently did. 

I do have web pages like my Homeowners Guide that is designed for new residents, where I post that kind of info. 

Edited December 12, 2018 by Pamela Galli

[Chic Aeon]

Somewhere around 2006  the moon moved across the Second Life sky with 1,000.000 written on it. It was a pretty exciting occurrence. 

That was for 1,000,000 registered users. 

The definitions of registered users or active users isn't the same as the definition for concurrency.  So that may be the issue here.

SL was on STEAM for a short period of time long ago. It didn't work out well and was taken off. I talked to one of the Sansar folks mentioning "that failure" before Sansar went on STEAM and he said they were well aware of that and had done their homework this time. 

Whether it works well or not, we are getting a lot of new users and the folks that have been there awhile are getting to take advantage of a lot of special newness made FOR the STEAM folks (mostly anyway). So it's all good.

 

 

[animats]

What would it take to get SL up to a level where it could succeed on Steam? A list:

• Simplify avatar building. This is mostly a standards and documentation thing. LL might have to work closely with the major body vendors. Marketplace for clothing and skins should work like auto parts sites, where you tell the site what car you have and it shows you parts that fit.
• Keep the frame rate up. Minimum 30FPS or bust! SL lacks modern level of detail machinery. Sansar has such machinery.  Separate out fixed non-animated objects and draw them in big groups. Consider upping the minimum hardware spec for Steam users. It's all technically possible.
• Physically  based rendering. Get the Sansar look in SL. It's mostly viewer side, with some extra numbers for each face and better shader programs in the GPU.
• Fix, fix, fix. All those known bugs people work around - fix them. Use a reliable connection between viewer and sim for everything but movement updates. Chase down all viewer out of sync bugs that cause garbage textures, half-dressed avatars and such. Fix region crossings. Fix the slowdown in texture loading after early textures load. Any bug a non-creator user can see must be fixed. No excuses.
• Simplify the user menus. Separate out all the building, land management, and developer stuff.
• Improve search at least to the level of Google 10 years ago, so users can find places, people, and items. One search bar for everything.
• New users start with some kind of quest or task that takes them around the world. They get to pick, but they have to do something.
• Paying customers get a starter house on day one. They can then move if they want.
• Real game testing, where the player and screen are recorded and someone reviews the recordings and notes everything that went wrong.

"The Sansar experiment has taught us what we need to do to improve our core product, Second Life. Now we have to do it." - something Ebbe needs to be saying before his investors decide a new CEO is needed.

[Rolig Loon]

2 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

just putting together an avatar that isn't a public embarrassment can take a noobie days, if not weeks. And that's assuming that you know enough to look for help from somewhere like the forums.

This is a valid point.  It's the big reason why I delayed for quite a long time before taking the plunge into getting a mesh body and, later, a mesh head myself -- and I know my way around after 12 years. 

2 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

There has been a tendency for people to respond to these kinds of criticism with the implication that those who give up on learning this utterly byzantine mish-mash of arcane technologies for making yourself look half-decent are "soft," need instant gratification, or are not made of the "right stuff" for SL.

This also is a decent point.  I think it's a fair observation that many (most?) of the regular denizens in these forums are not only old-timers in SL years (like me) but also in their late 30s or beyond in RL (like me).  We no longer have statistics on the average age of SL residents, but I suspect that it's quite a bit higher than it was when I joined in 2007.   Without intending to make a classist value judgment about it, I think that there are some generational differences between many of us and some of the newcomers who wander in from popular gaming platforms. That may explain -- but not excuse -- why some of us tend to jump rather quickly from "Welcome to SL" to "This is not a game, so suck it up and quit whining,"  in much the same way that we get impatient with younger people and outsiders of any stripe in RL.  We have survived, so you can too.  Quit your bellyaching.  Get off my lawn.

I don't see any easy solutions here.  SL's free market economy means that we will always have different products and brands competing for market share.  Creators are imaginative people. Linden Lab keeps introducing new tools that open up creative opportunities too.  Things change so rapidly that there's little hope of having all of the new bodies, heads, HUDs, and attachments be compatible with each other, or of even having some central information site that might help newbies make sense of the mess.  (Sort of like RL, actually.)   The best we can do, individually, is to develop a greater tolerance for people around us who are even more confused than we are. 

[Pamela Galli]

29 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said:

The best we can do, individually, is to develop a greater tolerance for people around us who are even more confused than we are. 

I don’t see people here being impatient with people who have made their own effort to investigate how to do something, and come here for more info. When people here are impatient, it has nothing to do with a persons SL or RL age per se  but with their sense of entitlement, their finger pointing and blaming, their insults, their know-it-all refusal to try tested advice, etc. 

When I come to the forums for help, it is with a great sense of gratitude for the time, effort, and knowledge I am asking people to freely give. That is only fair. It is just inconceivable to me to instead abuse and insult.

Edited December 12, 2018 by Pamela Galli

[Rolig Loon]

2 minutes ago, Pamela Galli said:

When I come to the forums for help, it is with a great sense of gratitude for the time, effort, and knowledge I am asking people to freely give. That is only fair. It is just inconceivable to me to instead abuse and insult.

I agree, Pam.  I'm not trying to excuse poor behavior on anyone's part.  That's not the point of my observation.  You've known me long enough to know that my own way of responding to people like that is to simply not offer the help that they may have asked for.  Life is to short for me to waste time tossing insults back at every lout I run across. 

My point really was that many frustrated  newcomers come with genuine questions about how to make sense of our arcane world and are met with curmudgeonly brief answers and a tone that implies that they should just go away and figure things out for themselves.  I catch myself doing that sometimes, especially when a question seems astonishingly naive or the OP seems terminally thick.  If I am careful, I bite my tongue before making a snarky reply.  Sometimes, I screw up. My point is that I can do better, and so can many of the rest of us SL elders.

[Klytyna]

55 minutes ago, animats said:

What would it take to get SL up to a level where it could succeed on Steam? A list:

Uhoh, here comes another "turn SL into a single 30gb download style UE4 based MMOFPS game with missions!" attack...

57 minutes ago, animats said:

Simplify avatar building. This is mostly a standards and documentation thing. LL might have to work closely with the major body vendors. Marketplace for clothing and skins should work like auto parts sites, where you tell the site what car you have and it shows you parts that fit.

And first wave of kamakazi foolishness... Limit peoples choices by having a set list of approved bodies that the "system recognises"...

I can see that going down a treat with content creators, being told what bodies they are allowed to make addons for, because somebody wants to make SL easier for teen-leet-gamerz...

1 hour ago, animats said:

Keep the frame rate up. Minimum 30FPS or bust! SL lacks modern level of detail machinery. Sansar has such machinery.  Separate out fixed non-animated objects and draw them in big groups. Consider upping the minimum hardware spec for Steam users. It's all technically possible.

In a game with pre baked environments that seldom if ever change, but thats not SL.

1 hour ago, animats said:

Physically  based rendering. Get the Sansar look in SL. It's mostly viewer side, with some extra numbers for each face and better shader programs in the GPU.

Oh hell no, Project Stupid's rendering looks like crap, it's all either way to over contrasted, or washed out and desaturated. Now this *could* be because all the environment builders are crap, but... It's more likely that it's because the render engine is a piece of crap.

1 hour ago, animats said:

Fix, fix, fix. All those known bugs people work around - fix them. Use a reliable connection between viewer and sim for everything but movement updates. Chase down all viewer out of sync bugs that cause garbage textures, half-dressed avatars and such. Fix region crossings. Fix the slowdown in texture loading after early textures load. Any bug a non-creator user can see must be fixed. No excuses.

Fixing bugs is good, but, with your usual flair for talking tech-illiterate nonsense, you seem to assume that LL's control over the global web is good enough to ensure "reliable connections"...

1 hour ago, animats said:

Simplify the user menus. Separate out all the building, land management, and developer stuff.

Ah... No, leave the UI alone, crippling the UI to hide "techy stuff" hurts a creative based system, if people cant find the tools they need they get pissed off, Those Zen UI's, UI's without a UI, are strictly for thumb-typers who voice spam while aiming their pervecam with one hand and rummaging in their baggy "kewl dudz" pants with the other.

1 hour ago, animats said:

New users start with some kind of quest or task that takes them around the world. They get to pick, but they have to do something.

No... Start putting in missions, and next thing that happens is some clueless "leet gamer" type will want the missions expanded to include "proper epeen vs epeen killing" and SL becomes some bad imitation of an MMOFPS game.

1 hour ago, animats said:

Real game testing, where the player and screen are recorded and someone reviews the recordings and notes everything that went wrong.

But who would the player be? The problem isn't that they don't fix what the player notices is going wrong...

The problem is that the test player is the same person who a) wrote whats being tested, and B) seldom if ever actually sees how things work on the live grid with real users, because c) they seldom stray off the beta grid except to waste an hour at one of those Snob Clique meetings, once a week.

1 hour ago, animats said:

"The Sansar experiment has taught us what we need to do to improve our core product, Second Life. Now we have to do it."

We knew that, 4 years ago, the answer was "stop wasting SL revenues on Project Stupid", and they still havn't learned that, as it's still open...

Come back next year when they close it down.

 

[Callum Meriman]

1 hour ago, Rolig Loon said:

  I think it's a fair observation that many (most?) of the regular denizens in these forums are not only old-timers in SL years (like me) but also in their late 30s or beyond in RL (like me).  We no longer have statistics on the average age of SL residents, but I suspect that it's quite a bit higher than it was when I joined in 2007.

Logically.

If we started playing SL in 2006 when we were 18 or in our 20s we are now in our 30s. Most of the experienced residents will now be (well) over 30. People who were 40 when it started are now close to 60!

Some new players will be young but as less and less people join the game, these younger people are rarer.

The population has aged along with the game. We have seen a lot of our friends pass away through disease, accident, or old age - just like real life.

[animats]

1 hour ago, Klytyna said:

Quote

In a game with pre baked environments that seldom if ever change, but thats not SL.

SL's environments don't change that much. While SL doesn't get to pre-bake a game level as you would for UE4 or Unity, it could do background processing to group objects. The background processing which builds the pathfinding mesh is like that. It runs maybe a minute behind the world state. Some of the newer MMOs do some dynamic organization of assets server side as a background task. There are also some things that could be done in the viewer to collect and impostor objects, and Beq Janus is looking into some of them. The "can't be done" old-timers in SL need to keep up with the technology if they want to criticize.

Quote

Oh hell no, Project Stupid's rendering looks like crap, it's all either way to over contrasted, or washed out and desaturated. Now this *could* be because all the environment builders are crap, but... It's more likely that it's because the render engine is a piece of crap.

The people creating in Sansar seem to like it. I haven't seen anyone else saying it's worse than SL. There is an issue with retraining artists for physically based rendering, but it's not that hard.  Physically based rendering renders into a much larger intensity range than the screen can show, and then that's mapped into 0..255 for display. That remapping is tricky, because it's fake - the display has less intensity range than RL, so something has to give. Remapping ("gamma") can be optimized for "can see as much detail as possible" or for "looks like RL when you're being dazzled by the sun". This is to some extent a matter of taste.

Quote

Fixing bugs is good, but, with your usual flair for talking tech-illiterate nonsense, you seem to assume that LL's control over the global web is good enough to ensure "reliable connections"...

I mean reliable connections in the networking sense - all the data gets there in the right order, without duplication, without error, but possibly with retry delay. SL's networking does not do this. Messages are sent as either "reliable" or "unreliable". The "reliable message" mechanism with UDP has some retries, but isn't really reliable.  After a few  (3, I think) retries, it gives up. It also does not guarantee in-order delivery. That's by design, but in retrospect not a good design decision, because the number of message types has grown over time and there are poorly understood sequence dependencies. Easier to just make those go away all at once than find each individual race condition bug.

The unreliable messages are for events for which latency is critical. The latency critical ones are mostly about movement. Not all seem to be processed in ways for which message loss is harmless. I'd send all the reliable messages over a TCP connection, with delayed ACKs off and the Nagle algorithm on for optimal latency. Fewer messages should be sent in unreliable mode - mostly ImprovedTerseObjectUpdate (no parent change) from sim to viewer, and AgentUpdate from viewer to sim. If one of those is missed, it's not too bad, because another update should be along shortly. This would eliminate execution of the out of order receipt cases in llviewerobject.cpp, for which the code is troublesome, and fix some race conditions.

(If you have no idea what I'm talking about, and care, read the SL message protocol. I spent about a month reading message logs, so I have some idea of what's going on for server to viewer object updates.)

Quote

Those Zen UI's, UI's without a UI, are strictly for thumb-typers who voice spam while aiming their pervecam with one hand and rummaging in their baggy "kewl dudz" pants with the other.

Huh?

Quote

No... Start putting in missions, and next thing that happens is some clueless "leet gamer" type will want the missions expanded to include "proper epeen vs epeen killing" and SL becomes some bad imitation of an MMOFPS game.

One of the greeters at Caledon Oxbridge told me that new users think he's a quest giver. Might not be a bad idea. New users do need a bit more direction. There's not much disagreement about this. LL hasn't been very good at coming up with ways to do it, although they've tried.

Quote

But who would the player be? The problem isn't that they don't fix what the player notices is going wrong... The problem is that the test player is the same person who a) wrote whats being tested, and B) seldom if ever actually sees how things work on the live grid with real users, because c) they seldom stray off the beta grid except to waste an hour at one of those Snob Clique meetings, once a week.

That's not how user testing is done. You go outside for testers. It's fairly easy to test the first hour or two of a new game, because random people off the street can be used. SL's first two hours are its weak point.

 

Edited December 13, 2018 by animats

[Qie Niangao]

2 hours ago, animats said:

• Paying customers get a starter house on day one. They can then move if they want.

That's very interesting.

Soon to be empty are some mini-continents designed for the old 512sq.m. Linden Homes. They're pretty dreadful by current standards (in size and prim allotment, if nothing else), but might be just the place to park new paying members (for some level of "paying") to get them accustomed to having a place to decorate.

Very interesting indeed.

[animats]

1 minute ago, Qie Niangao said:

That's very interesting.

Soon to be empty are some mini-continents designed for the old 512sq.m. Linden Homes.

Giving a new user a house gives them a stake in staying. It gets them used to the idea that SL is about land and place. It gives them something to do on day one. A good something.

Maybe first month's rent is free. But until you pay, objects in your inventory are no-transfer, so you can't hop from one free account to another and keep your stuff. Try before you buy.

Maybe "basic premium" - half the price of premium, half the house size, half the stipend.

[Callum Meriman]

Why not just give a randomly chosen 512 home for 45 days, gratis, full stop. One per email address.

Why make people pay at day 1? Put the hook in their mouths and then at 45 days, show them premium.

 

Edited December 13, 2018 by Callum Meriman

[bigmoe Whitfield]

Max concurrency I remember at one time being online before the system tanked was 87,000,  I've only seen those numbers once in my 11 years, but the userbase we have now is great, we love SL. 

[animats]

1 hour ago, Callum Meriman said:

Why not just give a randomly chosen 512 home for 45 days, gratis, full stop. One per email address.

Why make people pay at day 1? Put the hook in their mouths and then at 45 days, show them premium.

You may be on to something. Sansar does that.

Getting new users into housing on day one gives them a place and a role in SL, something that many new users report SL doesn't offer them. SL has many signups but terrible retention. This could help.

It needs spam filtering, so that someone can't create many alts and tie up too much land. That's solveable.

 

[Ethan Paslong]

5 hours ago, Callum Meriman said:

 People who were 40 when it started are now close to 60!

go wash your mouth with soap!!!

40 + 15 is certainly NOT close to 60!!!

[Ethan Paslong]

4 hours ago, Callum Meriman said:

Why not just give a randomly chosen 512 home for 45 days, gratis, full stop. One per email address.

hmm you know how creative SL users are .. create a gmail and alt every six weeks and you can live for free...

[Fionalein]

4 hours ago, Callum Meriman said:

Why not just give a randomly chosen 512 home for 45 days, gratis, full stop. One per email address.

Why make people pay at day 1? Put the hook in their mouths and then at 45 days, show them premium.

 

Only if they offer it as optional and "free for the first 45 days" and explain clearly it won't be permanent unless they sign up for premium...

PS: I would not have invested anything into a home I had no idea wether I can afford to keep it later

Edited December 13, 2018 by Fionalein

[Selene Gregoire]

38 minutes ago, Ethan Paslong said:

go wash your mouth with soap!!!

40 + 15 is certainly NOT close to 60!!!

Yea it is. 5 years isn't that long once you hit 55. Believe me, I know. The last 4 years have literally flown by and left me wondering where the heck they went. 

It's true that time seems to pass more quickly the older you get. Whoosh 💨 there it went. Now get off my lawn! ✊

[Callum Meriman]

1 hour ago, Ethan Paslong said:

go wash your mouth with soap!!!

40 + 15 is certainly NOT close to 60!!!

<3

When one is 9 one looks forward to double digits. OMG 10! Woohoo. I am a big boy now!
When one is 12, one counts half years "I am 12 and a half, almost 13!"
When one is 16, well... all those things like driving unlock
When one is 18, Finally alcohol (unless you are American)
When one is 30, Ummm, what happened? All my friends got married.
When one is 40, Nooo, take it back, I want to stay 39!
When one is 50, Ouch, this damned well hurts
When one is 60, Hmm, when did they start hiring children as policemen?
When one is 70, Ha! You can't imagine what's coming yet
When one is 80, Yay! Seniors discounts at the local all-you-can-eat restaurant.
And so on.

[Fionalein]

17 minutes ago, Callum Meriman said:

When one is 16, well... all those things like booze unlock
When one is 18, Finally a car

Germanized it for you

We let them learn control their drinking habits before we allow them into cars.

 

[ChinRey]

8 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

That's very interesting.

Soon to be empty are some mini-continents designed for the old 512sq.m. Linden Homes. They're pretty dreadful by current standards (in size and prim allotment, if nothing else), but might be just the place to park new paying members (for some level of "paying") to get them accustomed to having a place to decorate.

Ummm, that is exactly what the Linden Homes were made for. And they still work that way today. Most of the houses are taken by long time residents of course (what makes you think the sims will be empty soon btw?) but there are always plenty of vacancies.

[Fionalein]

22 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

Ummm, that is exactly what the Linden Homes were made for. And they still work that way today. Most of the houses are taken by long time residents of course (what makes you think the sims will be empty soon btw?) but there are always plenty of vacancies.

Qie might think the brute squad™ will come and mass relocate the beggars - er basic premium owners to SSP.