The Old Lie: "Dulce et Decorum Est"

[Selene Gregoire]

 

[Luna Bliss]

1 hour ago, Phorumities said:

19 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

I don't believe she's mocking anyone at all.

You can disapprove of war while at the same time honor those who were courageous enough to die for what they believed in.

soooo what is your opinion on removing monuments honoring the men that fought for the Confederacy?

The issue is not whether they are deserving of honor. The issue is what these statues and flags symbolize to the people and their descendents who endure/endured the horrors of oppression.

You might be surprised to learn I have sympathy for these Confederate soldiers. Reading the sermons from preachers in the ultra-Christian population of that period we can see how soldiers believed they were fighting for a reality layed out in the Bible. Blacks were seen as inferior to whites and needing subjegation, and their proof was the acceptance of slavery in the Bible. They were willing to sacrifice for a cause beyond themselves, and that is a noble mindset, but unfortunately one that was misapplied as a justication to trample on the 'other'.

We make excuses for some errors in the past, assign less culpability to them when we say they were "a man of his times". This doesn't justify present day insensitivity toward those who were/are victimized by their mistakes however.

But yes, bring forth some stories of Confederate soldiers as was suggested. I don't base my interest or sympathy only on those who are perfect.

[Phorumities]

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

You're really kind of hellbent and determined to start a fire here, aren't you?

Please stop baiting Luna and Love. No one here has suggested restrictions on who gets memorialized. How they get memorialized, and the function of the statues that you mention, is quite another issue, and has nothing to do with what we've been discussing here.

In fact, it deserves its own thread: why don't you start one?

Luna made a blanket statement. I was asking for clarification. Is that called baiting now?

As for Love I generally ignore his posts. I wish I could say he does the same with mine.

And as a reminder, you might be OP but you have no control over where the thread goes once its started.

I suppose that could be an interesting feature though.

[Phorumities]

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

The issue is not whether they are deserving of honor. The issue is what these statues and flags symbolize to the people and their descendents who endure/endured the horrors of oppression.

You might be surprised to learn I have sympathy for these Confederate soldiers. Reading the sermons from preachers in the ultra-Christian population of that period we can see how soldiers believed they were fighting for a reality layed out in the Bible. Blacks were seen as inferior to whites and needing subjegation, and their proof was the acceptance of slavery in the Bible. They were willing to sacrifice for a cause beyond themselves, and that is a noble mindset, but unfortunately one that was misapplied as a justication to trample on the 'other'.

We make excuses for some errors in the past, assign less culpability to them when we say they were "a man of his times". This doesn't justify present day insensitivity toward those who were/are victimized by their mistakes however.

But yes, bring forth some stories of Confederate soldiers as was suggested. I don't base my interest or sympathy only on those who are perfect.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think there are any slaves still alive from that time, so there are no victims to show sensitivity towards.

Its obviously time for some Abraham Lincoln quotes but they would be reported as inflamatory,  combative and trolling so I'll just pass and leave you to live in your world of black and white.

 

 

Edited November 12, 2018 by Phorumities
added stuff

[Love Zhaoying]

15 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think there are any slaves still alive from that time, so there are no victims to show sensitivity towards.

They have descendants.

Edited November 12, 2018 by Love Zhaoying
Spelling is fun

[Love Zhaoying]

20 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

As for Love I generally ignore his posts. I wish I could say he does the same with mine.

I am honored. I read your posts when I’m in the mood. 

[Fionalein]

29 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

 Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think there are any slaves still alive from that time, so there are no victims to show sensitivity towards.

Its obviously time for some Abraham Lincoln quotes but they would be reported as inflamatory,  combative and trolling so I'll just pass and leave you to live in your world of black and white.  

 

Because you pretend to not getting the difference - dude! - No, she didn't ask you to post historical texts from the Union that made some southerners angry - she asked you to post some texts originating in the Confederation ... That's a big difference, ...

Here you do it again and on purpose. I do not know why you refuse to stop derailing threads - PLEASE DON'T! 

Edited November 12, 2018 by Fionalein

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

I do not know why you refuse to stop derailing threads - PLEASE DON'T! 

Some people don’t take direction well. Fun fact, I heard this morning that “Memorial Day” was created following the Civil War. “Veterans Day” is basically the same day as “Armistice” day (WW1), 11th day, 11th month, 11th hour, etc. 

[LittleMe Jewell]

It takes two (or more) to argue.  Maybe everyone should simply start totally ignoring comments that they see as baiting, rather than further derailing the thread by responding.

(yes, I realize that this response is, in and of itself, a continuation of the unwanted derailment).

Edited November 12, 2018 by LittleMe Jewell

[Skell Dagger]

From They Shall Not Grow Old. I wish Gyazo could capture the audio as well, but the subtitles will have to suffice.

https://i.gyazo.com/bb27813e3943ac7a4de500c2bdf70ec3.mp4

https://i.gyazo.com/821dd8849937409ffe1458314ba0ad13.mp4

Warning on the last one, for distressing content. This moment, I don't mind admitting, was the one that wrought tears from me:

https://i.gyazo.com/18ae88089d8621348b89e35acb75fe10.mp4

[Theresa Tennyson]

57 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think there are any slaves still alive from that time, so there are no victims to show sensitivity towards.

There are exactly as many slaves alive from that time as there are Confederate soldiers alive to honor.

[Love Zhaoying]

23 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

It takes two (or more) to argue.  Maybe everyone should simply start totally ignoring comments that they see as baiting, rather than further derailing the thread by responding.

(yes, I realize that this response is, in and of itself, a continuation of the unwanted derailment).

Sounds nice, I’ll give it a go!

[Love Zhaoying]

If you’re a Veteran, thanks for you service!

[Scylla Rhiadra]

45 minutes ago, Skell Dagger said:

From They Shall Not Grow Old. I wish Gyazo could capture the audio as well, but the subtitles will have to suffice.

https://i.gyazo.com/bb27813e3943ac7a4de500c2bdf70ec3.mp4

https://i.gyazo.com/821dd8849937409ffe1458314ba0ad13.mp4

Warning on the last one, for distressing content. This moment, I don't mind admitting, was the one that wrought tears from me:

https://i.gyazo.com/18ae88089d8621348b89e35acb75fe10.mp4

These are wonderful, and upsetting, all at the same time. And the colourized (?) footage is astonishing.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

From the Diary of Sgt. Henry W. Tisdale, 35th Regiment, Massachusetts Volunteer Infantry (pub. 1926)

This is all good, but I've italicized a bit in the middle that I found particularly affecting.

From the entry for October 29, 1862

"At near 4 PM September 14th our brigade was ordered to the front, a rough march of some 4 miles brought us to the scene of conflict, climbing steep hills, some almost mountains crossing rough fields through corn fields and some of the way at double quick.  On our way meeting many wounded being carried to the rear and as we neared the battleground here and there a dead body was to be seen.  At little after 5 PM were upon the ground where the booming of artillery the screaming of shot and shell and rattling of musketry told us we were mid the stern realities of actual battle.  The sight of the wounded sent a kind of chill over me but in the main feelings of curiosity and wonder at the scene about me took hold of my mind. Were drawn up in the line of battle in a cornfield and then advanced through a sort of wooden field to a thick wood where we met the rebels or a few scattering ones for their main body was on the retreat.  In entering the wood came upon a large number of rebel dead lying in a ravine, presenting a sad and sickening sight.  They were making an advance upon our lines, but when crossing the ravine, were met by a volley from the 17th Michigan which so thinned their ranks that on that part of their line they made a precipitate retreat.  Just after we entered the wood was wounded by a rifle ball passing through my left leg just opposite the thighbone.  As the ball struck me it gave me a shock which led me to feel at first that the bone must have been struck and shattered and for a moment did not dare to move for fear it was so.  Found on moving that the bone was not injured and that I had only a flesh wound, which relieved my mind and thankfulness to God that I was not maimed or dangerously hurt came. I think that the shot must have been fired by some straggling rebel or sharpshooter in a tree, as we had not yet got up to within reach of the rebel lines. Found myself in a few moments growing weak and tying my towel above the wound to stop its bleeding tried to make for the rear where the surgeons were.  As I was limping off a wounded rebel who was sitting against a tree called me and asked me if I did not have something to eat. Exhibiting a loaf and going to him I opened my knife to cut off a slice when he placed his hands before his face exclaiming “Don’t kill me” and begging me to put up the knife and not to hurt him.  Assuring him I had no intention of hurting him I spoke with him a little.  Found he had a family in Georgia, that he was badly wounded and was anxious to have me remain with him and help him off.  But found I was growing weaker from loss of blood and that the surging to and fro the troops about us made it a dangerous place so limping and crawling was obliged to leave him and move for the rear.  Soon came across some men detailed to look out for the wounded who placed me in a blanket and took me to the rear to the surgeon.  The place where the wounded were brought was near a cottage, near which had been the battle- ground of the forenoon.  Was fortunate enough to be placed upon a straw bed in the garden just outside the house and had my wound promptly dressed.  The cottage had a memento of the fight in the shape of a hole through its roof made by a cannon ball. The fighting continued till late in the evening, our regiment losing but a few wounded among them our colonel lost his left arm and George E. Whiting of our company one of his feet.  He bore the amputation manfully.  The house and outbuildings and the ground adjoining them were filled and covered with wounded rebel and union mingled, all being cared for as best they could be, many moaning piteously throughout the night or until death put an end to their sufferings.  Friend Sabin R. Baker of our company took care of us of the regiment doing what he could and adding much to our comfort amid the confusion and suffering existing about."

http://www.civilwardiary.net/

[Phorumities]

31 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

There are exactly as many slaves alive from that time as there are Confederate soldiers alive to honor.

The whole purpose of memorials to remember the deeds of the soldiers after they are long gone. It's a remembrance of our past, our history, actually.

The best way to destroy a nation is to destroy any memory of its history.

As I've said before, it's not the stars and bars "they" really hate and want to eliminate, its the stars and stripes.

 

[Love Zhaoying]

Today I learned: most Civil War memorials were built not following the War, but along with the Jim Crow movement. Interesting!

https://www.history.com/news/how-the-u-s-got-so-many-confederate-monuments

Edited November 12, 2018 by Love Zhaoying

[Phorumities]

1 hour ago, Fionalein said:

Because you pretend to not getting the difference - dude! - No, she didn't ask you to post historical texts from the Union that made some southerners angry - she asked you to post some texts originating in the Confederation ... That's a big difference, ...

Here you do it again and on purpose. I do not know why you refuse to stop derailing threads - PLEASE DON'T! 

And yet again, I'm simply replying to a post someone made. If someone names me in a post, I'm entitled to reply.  

The point is, too many people see the civil war as good guys vs bad guys.  Evil black-hating southerners, vs good black loving northerners. NOTHING could be further from the truth. Unfortunately painting everything in such simple terms does nothing to add to understanding..

I was suggesting posting a few Lincoln quotes that if they were more widely known, "they" would be demanding to tear down the Lincoln Memorial.

 

 

 

Edited November 12, 2018 by Phorumities
removed a word left behind by mistake while composing the post

[Selene Gregoire]

Quote

XIV. Chancellorsville chapter: In the afternoon I went over to the corps field hospital, where the doctors were busy in probing for balls, binding up wounds, and in cutting off arms and legs, a pile of which lay under the table. One drummer boy was brought in to be operated upon, who had both hands shattered by the explosion of a gun barrel. He has picked up a gun barrel on the field, and was holding it in the fire to have a little fun, when it exploded. His hands were shattered all to pieces, saving nothing but a thumb on one hand, and a thumb and finger on the other. When the doctors had him on the table and under the influence of cloraform [chloroform], they picked out the pieces of bone with their fingers. One of the men died at this hospital who had been shot through the breast and was held by a vivandiere of one of the regts. in her lap, until he was dead.

On the 5th the ambulance train began to carry away the badly wounded, all the men who could help themselves having to stay behind. When the last ambulance had gone, myself and another member of the Regt. who was hit in the leg the same as myself took up our quarters on the door steps of a house, with the raining pouring down and wet to the skin. About 12 o’clock at night we were awakened by the doctors who had returned with the ambulances and were told that we would be taken away. As we could hobble along, we started to go ourselves, but two of the doctors got hold of each of us and carrying us to the ambulance put us in. We were now out of the rain and felt quite comfortable, although wet through. My friend, who always had the cleanest rifle in the Regt. had brought it off the field with him intending to carry it along. He was ordered to throw it away by the doctors, and much against his will, it was left behind. In the ambulance with us with a badly wounded man, who lay on a bed, and every jolt of the ambulance over the corduroy road would make him cry out with pain. As we had an all night ride over corduroy roads and stumps of trees, it was not very pleasant even for me.

 

Quote

XV. Hospital chapter: [Editor’s note] Bellard’s wound prevented him from witnessing the outcome of the battle of Chancellorsville. Hopelessly confused by the way the fighting developed and more befuddled than usual from the concussion of a shell that landed near him, Hooker pulled his troops back from Chancellorsville to a strong defensive position and then, on May 6, withdrew his army north of the Rappahannock. Meanwhile Lee also drove Sedgwick’s troops back across the river near Fredericksburg.

For the Fifth New Jersey Infantry the Chancellorsville battle provided costly. Bellard’s reckoning of casualties is slightly inaccurate; the regiment actually suffered 121 casualties—13 officers and men killed, 102 wounded, and 6 missing in action.

Hospitalized during the summer of 1863, Bellard took no part in the Gettysburg campaign. Nor was he able to participate in putting down the draft riots in New York (July 13- 16), which broke out in protest against the new Union Policy of conscription.

By fall, however, he was well enough to serve in the Invalid Corps, which had been established in April 1863 to permit officers and men unfit for full combat duty to perform limited infantry service. The first battalion of the Invalid Corps consisted of those who would handle a weapon. The second battalion received the worst crippled, who were used as nurses and cooks around hospitals. By December 1863 the Corps numbered 20,000 men.

**********

We arrived at Potomac Creek Hospital at noon on the 6th, wet through and hungry, but after getting something to eat I felt better. In the tent were men with their legs off, some with arms off, and men with all kinds of wounds. The most cheerful one of the lot was a man with his hand cut off at the wrist. As it had commenced to superate [suppurate], of course it did not smel[l] very sweet, and every little while he would poke it under some one’s nose, and tel[l] him to smel[l] of that.

On the 7th our brigade got back to camp, bringing in with them seven stand of colors captured from the rebels in the last engagement. The 5th Regt. taking the battle flag of the 19th N.C., the body of which was a brownish red, and the stripes blue, with the names of 8 battles painted on one side and 4 on the other. The loss to our Regt. was 105 wounded, 13 killed and 8 missing. Of the last named, the chances were that they were killed, making a total of 126 officers and men out of a Regt. that mustered previ[o]us to the battle 315 all told. My company was represented by wounded only, to wit. Corpl. Rapp severe in shin, Privates Austin, bruised by a piece of shell on the breast, Bellard, slight in knee, musket ball, Dugan, severe in groin, piece of shell, Flick, severe in shoulder, musket ball, Heslin [Heslen], severe in leg, musket ball, Heatl[e]y, slight in finger, musket ball, Reilly [Riely], slight in leg, musket ball, Robinson, severe in knee, musket ball, Sweitzer [Switzer], slight in thigh, musket ball, and VanBuskirk, slight in arm musket ball with Fenton, missing.

 

 

Gone for a Soldier: The Civil War Memoirs of Private Alfred Bellard

More excepts on the pdf here: https://www.nlm.nih.gov/exhibition/lifeandlimb/pdfs/transcriptbellardmemoirs.pdf

[Fionalein]

8 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

And yet again, I'm simply replying to a post someone made. If someone names me in a post, I'm entitled to reply. stop 

And so again are they in return - you start an argumentation ping pong with the ultimate goal to disrupt the discussion that has nothing to do with it, thus getting legit threads on totally unrelated topics locked - if that's not trolling on purpose I have no idea what is...

Edited November 12, 2018 by Fionalein

[Pamela Galli]

11 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

And yet again, I'm simply replying to a post someone made. If someone names me in a post, I'm entitled to reply. stop 

The point is, too many people see the civil war as good guys vs bad guys.  Evil black-hating southerners, vs good black loving northerners. NOTHING could be further from the truth. Unfortunately painting everything in such simple terms does nothing to add to understanding..

I was suggesting posting a few Lincoln quotes that if they were more widely known, "they" would be demanding to tear down the Lincoln Memorial.

 

 

 

This is like trump always saying “Not many people know [thing that most high school graduates know that he didnt].

Edited November 12, 2018 by Pamela Galli

[Selene Gregoire]

Quote

Life of a Confederate Soldier In the Words of Sam Watkins

The Weariness of a Long March

After the Battle of Perryville (October 8, 1862):

Along the route it was nothing but tramp, tramp, tramp, and no sound or noise but the same inevitable, monotonous tramp, tramp, tramp, up hill and down hill, through long and dusty lanes, weary, wornout and hungry. No cheerful warble of a merry songster would ever greet our ears. It was always tramp, tramp, tramp. You might, every now and then, hear the occasional words "close up"; but outside of that, it was but the same tramp, tramp, tramp. I have seen soldiers fast asleep, and no doubt dreaming of home and loved ones there, as they staggered along in their places in the ranks. I know that on many a weary night's march I have slept, and slept soundly, while marching along in my proper place in the ranks of the company, stepping to the same step as the soldier in front of me did. Sometimes, when weary, broken down and worn out, some member of the regiment would start a tune, and every man would join in....

...the boys would wake up and step quicker and livelier for some time, and Arthur Fulghum would holloa out, "All right; go ahead!" and then would toot! toot! as if the cars were starting—puff! puff! puff and then he would say, "Tickets, gentlemen; tickets, gentlemen" like he was conductor on a train of cars. This little episode would be over, and then would commence the same tramp, tramp, tramp, all night long. Step by step, step by step, we continued to plod and nod and stagger and march, tramp, tramp, tramp. After a while we would see the morning star rise in the east, and then after a while the dim gray twilight, and finally we could discover the outlines of our file leader, and after a while could make out the outlines of trees and other objects. And as it would get lighter and lighter, and day would be about to break, cuckoo, cuckoo, cuckoo, would come from Tom Tuck's rooster. [Tom carried a game rooster, that he called "Fed" for Confederacy, all through the war in a haversack.] And then the sun would begin to shoot his slender rays athwart the eastern sky, and the boys would wake up and begin laughing and talking as if they had just risen from a good feather bed, and were perfectly refreshed and happy. We would usually stop at some branch or other about breakfast time, and all wash our hands and faces and eat breakfast, if we had any, and then commence our weary march again. If we were halted for one minute, every soldier would drop down, and resting on his knapsack, would go to sleep....

We march on. The scene of a few days ago comes unhidden to my mind. Tramp, tramp, tramp, the soldiers are marching. Where are many of my old friends and comrades, whose names were so familiar at every roll call, and whose familiar "Here" is no more? They lie yonder at Perryville, unburied, on the field of battle. They lie where they fell. More than three hundred and fifty members of my regiment, the First Tennessee, numbered among the killed and wounded—one hundred and eighty-five slain on the field of battle. Who are they? Even then I had to try to think up the names of all the slain of Company H alone. Their spirits seemed to be with us on the march, but we know that their souls are with their God. Their bones, today, no doubt, bleach upon the battlefield. They left their homes, families, and loved ones a little more than one short twelve months ago, dressed in their gray uniforms, amid the applause and cheering farewells of those same friends. They lie yonder; no friendly hands ever closed their eyes in death; no kind, gentle, and loving mother was there to shed a tear over and say farewell to her darling boy; no sister's gentle touch ever wiped the death damp from off their dying brows. Noble boys; brave boys! They willingly gave their lives to their country's cause. Their bodies and bones are mangled and torn by the rude missiles of war. They sleep the sleep of the brave. They have given their all to their country. We miss them from our ranks. There are no more hard marches and scant rations for them. They have accomplished all that could be required of them. They are no more; their names are soon forgotten. They are put down in the roll-book as killed. They are forgotten. We will see them no more until the last reveille on the last morning of the final resurrection. Soldiers, comrades, friends, noble boys, farewell! we will meet no more on earth, but up yonder some day we will have a grand reunion. (pp. 67-70)
 

Sam R. Watkins, born on June 26, 1839 near Columbia, Tennessee, attended Jackson College at Columbia prior to his enlistment as a private in the First Tennessee Infantry, Company H in the spring of 1861. Watkins served throughout the duration of the war, and was promoted to fourth corporal for picking up a Union flag from the battlefield during the Battle of Atlanta, July 22, 1864. In 1881, 20 years after the war began, Watkins wrote his memoirs of the war, recounting his engaging saga in "Co. Aytch": A Side Show of the Big Show. Watkins died on July 20, 1901.

More here: http://dragoon1st.tripod.com/cw/files/soldier_watkins.html

[Scylla Rhiadra]

There used to be . . . I don't know, 7 years ago? . . . a sim set up by Oxford University that was devoted to the poets of the Great War, and that featured a sort of recreation of the trenches of the Western Front. I've got a pic somewhere of me dressed in a nurse's uniform that was freely available there. And it had interactive elements that included excerpts from both poems and, I think, war diaries.

Anyone know if it, or anything like it, is still around?

[Fionalein]

7 minutes ago, Pamela Galli said:

This is like trump always saying “Not many people know [thing that most high school graduates know that he didnt].

please don't further feed her... 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

5 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

the boys would wake up and step quicker and livelier for some time, and Arthur Fulghum would holloa out, "All right; go ahead!" and then would toot! toot! as if the cars were starting—puff! puff! puff and then he would say, "Tickets, gentlemen; tickets, gentlemen" like he was conductor on a train of cars. This little episode would be over, and then would commence the same tramp, tramp, tramp, all night long. Step by step, step by step, we continued to plod and nod and stagger and march, tramp, tramp, tramp.

This is brilliant (and this part really amusing), Selene. Thank you for sharing!