Best way to tell someone their shape is a little off

[Wildcat Furse]

I wouldn't tell it either, it is their avatar .... of course if they would ask for advice I will help them anytime :smileywink: *meows*

[Venus Petrov]

I know better than to go around 'offering' unsolicited advice.  When I was a n00b, I made my own shape which was really just playing with the sliders.  I decided to purchase a shape (nomod) and stuck with it for awhile until I wanted something better (aka mod).  I got something that was kind of sporty over three years ago now and have modded the shape to suit me. 

I recall when a close friend saw me nearly two years ago for the first time in awhile and she told me that my avatar was 'fat'.  I laughed.  Just goes to show, the only person you really need to satisfy is yourself.

[Mila Edelman]

 

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Venus Petrov wrote:

I know better than to go around 'offering' unsolicited advice.  When I was a n00b, I made my own shape which was really just playing with the sliders.  I decided to purchase a shape (nomod) and stuck with it for awhile until I wanted something better (aka mod).  I got something that was kind of sporty over three years ago now and have modded the shape to suit me. 

I recall when a close friend saw me nearly two years ago for the first time in awhile and she told me that my avatar was 'fat'.  I laughed.  Just goes to show, the only person you really need to satisfy is yourself.

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Regarding only needing to satisfy yourself, if you're not selling, that's true. But I'm thankful every day that my friends held an intervention about the avatar I used in my adverts. They truly cared that I was able to maximize sales, and I was failing at that, because people got the impression that my clothes might make you look fat, as I looked in my adverts, when I wore my "me" shape. Sales have since skyrocketed.

When I have someone complaining to me, though, that they don't like how they look, even if it's a stranger, I will usually offer to help find ways for them to be happy with their looks (when I say I felt out the situation regarding the woman who looked like a blow-up doll, I mean it). Why stick with a look you're desperately unhappy with? Honestly, some n00bs don't know that they CAN change their shape. It's not that they're stupid. It's that they just haven't learned all the ins and outs yet.

[Venus Petrov]

I agree with you, Mila.  If someone asks for help, I am happy to help where I can.  I still recall the 'station' on Orientation Island where we learned that we could modify our shapes.  I spent hours messing around with the sliders.  Unfortunately, I think most n00bs these days are tossed into the larger SL world with fewer tools (or they are so eager to get out, they do and then find themselves full of questions...hell, I still have questions!).

[Penny Patton]

I don't offer criticism unless asked. It's generally considered impolite and most people are very attached to their appearance, taking any criticism very personally even if you've only the best intentions.

That said, nearly every single avatar in SL has glaring proportion issues due to a lack of tools and poor starter shapes. We can't expect every single person in SL to have a professional artist's understanding of anatomy, which is why the appearance editor should come with tools, guides and a set of well proportioned body templates to help people create their ideal shape.

 Until that happens, and I'm not holding my breath, pretty much every avatar on your screen, with scant few exceptions, will have serious anatomy issues. Tiny heads, hands, and feet, absurdly long legs and stubby arms are all common.

There are no built-in tools to check proportions by, no way to "lock" proportions so you don't accidentally go well beyond human norms. The only way to make an avatar with good proportions is to head to a sandbox (or land you have build rights on), set down a pose stand, and manually check/adjust your proportions using prims. This is a very time consuming process. To my knowledge, there's only 2 or 3 people in SL who have put this kind of work into their shapes.

[Mila Edelman]

Yeah, I'm noticing an increasing number of new users who have no idea about what's going on (even with some really basic movement tools). When I joined, we were dropped at some help place. We had to go through a tutorial thing before we could do anything else. Of course, as n00bs back then, we also got system hair and system clothes only. Hehe, they were awful. However, I'd take starting out ugly ANY day over getting a slightly better avatar to start, but not knowing what the heck I'm doing.

[Mila Edelman]

I think this is also an unfortunate problem with user perception. So merchants are often boxed into using avatars that look "off" to appeal to the most customers. When I had thighs that were of a normal shape and size, I looked squatty and fat to the customers. I think so many of them were used to seeing Amazonian women that they forgot some of us don't choose that route.

As much as I'm thankful for my friend for making the new shape for modeling, because it did wonders for my sales, and I wouldn't know where to begin making something distorted, I don't like wearing it because I feel mildly ridiculous with thighs that long.

PS: My RL shape though, my hands ARE that small. I get all of the family antique jewelry because I'm the only one that can wear it.

[Clarissa Lowell]

 

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Bree Giffen wrote:

I think the next time I see someone with small hands I will first set my hand shape to something large like 100. Then I will walk up to them and say hello. When they comment on my hands I will say, "Yes, I think you're right but I think yours are too small! Let's change our hand size together shall we?...Excellent, now we both have normal hands! Dancing? No thanks I've got to go sailing!"

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Why sail? With hands set to 100 you would always win at thumb wrestling. :smileyvery-happy:

 

[Minareth Irata]

 

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Bree Giffen wrote:

I think the next time I see someone with small hands I will first set my hand shape to something large like 100. Then I will walk up to them and say hello. When they comment on my hands I will say, "Yes, I think you're right but I think yours are too small! Let's change our hand size together shall we?...Excellent, now we both have normal hands! Dancing? No thanks I've got to go sailing!"

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Brilliant! So gotta try that.

 

[Peewee Musytari]

So I guess it wouldn`t be cool to say:

"Wow I really admire your confidence being able to go out in public with an ass that size and not care what people think"

[Mila Edelman]

That's not always an insult, either.

I recall the first time I'd ever seen a large woman walk into my store. She was very pretty and I admired her willingness to use a realistic shape, and not one formed in the plastic surgery offices of Beverly Hills.

Hell, I told her so! I ended up talking to her for quite a bit, and I rented some shop space on a sim she ran.

[Pussycat Catnap]

 

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Mila Edelman wrote:

Yeah, I'm noticing an increasing number of new users who have no idea about what's going on (even with some really basic movement tools). When I joined, we were dropped at some help place. We had to go through a tutorial thing before we could do anything else.

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Its not that there are more of them, but that 'we' are no longer among them.

I got dropped into help island too, and it still took me a day to figure out how to TP out, and a long time to figure out assorted things about the UI, building, moving about, preferences, and so on.

Its easier to forget how confusing it was when you started the further you get from that point.

 

[Mila Edelman]

 

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:

 

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Mila Edelman wrote:

Yeah, I'm noticing an increasing number of new users who have no idea about what's going on (even with some really basic movement tools). When I joined, we were dropped at some help place. We had to go through a tutorial thing before we could do anything else.

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Its not that there are more of them, but that 'we' are no longer among them.

I got dropped into help island too, and it still took me a day to figure out how to TP out, and a long time to figure out assorted things about the UI, building, moving about, preferences, and so on.

Its easier to forget how confusing it was when you started the further you get from that point.

 

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Not really. It's not my perception that there are more or less n00bs, or that, because they can't do what I do now, the number is higher. Just a higher percentage of new users who weren't given the basic tutorials. I have been in contact with the "new user" crowd for quite a few years now, due to several projects, and I'm pointing out an increase in new users who aren't trained in the same basic things we were.

I still have to recall and recount the story of a friend of mine. He's actually my RL partner's good friend.

He wanted to come to SL to see what it's all about, and to check out my business. I thought that was kind of cool, because few from my first life bother to come see what I do for a living (those of you that have, many blessings on you). It's mostly just an esoteric notion to most. I got a real wake-up call when I gave him download instructions and waited awhile. I figured he'd be going through the tutorial.

To my surprise, I got an out-world IM from him a short while later, asking me why I'd sent him to download software to go play on an adult-oriented island. He wasn't dropped in a tutorial. He wasn't dropped on a place that was helpful. He was dropped, with no learning, onto an adult area (back before those were segregated). That *I* would send him to a place like that was just unthinkable. This was, sadly, becoming commonplace.

[Pussycat Catnap]

That's really no different from before.

That you may have gotten extensive tutorials puts you among some rarer crowd. Most of us just landed on help island.

Today's such island is at least a directed tour.

From there we end up anywhere, and that can very well be some adult place or some store or whatever.

 

Most people used to go from the tutorial / help island place to an infohub picked from a destination screen there, if anywhere. Now they go from the orientation island to some random plot picked from the screen there, and get an infohub set as their home. The difference is... not really existent.

Some people used to land in community gateways and go through a tutorials, then get an infohub as their home but be able to leave to some destination chosen from a screen at that community gateway. Today some people still do this, but not as many as its not one of the choices when making an account - you have to have been told to do it and how ahead of time. But the difference between the best of those tutorials; perhaps Caledon, and the official Orientation Island - while significant in design is not really teaching much more. Its just more thourough.

 

I would still argue its a matter of perspective.

 

[Kelli May]

I wouldn't normally offer advice, especially without being asked. At times I've expressed my opinion about poor proportions in SL avs, without being specific about anyone, but even then it can sound like one is being critical of those listening.

People have occasionally offered advice on my av shape, which I consider to be quite realistically proportioned. Maybe I'm wrong, or they're expecting to see more of a 'fantasy woman' shape? I don't want to get into that kind of argument. I was once told "you'd be cute if you were taller". My av is 5'10", taller than about 80% of RL women, and back then I'm sure it was closer to 6'2". I've been told I need bigger boobs, a smaller butt, a larger butt, a slimmer waist, shorter arms, longer legs, narrower shoulders, less muscle, less fat... but also complimented for the same 'deficiencies'.

The SL appearence editor is a big culprit. For realistic height and proportions, you have to be brave with some of the sliders and go well away from the median settings. It'd make sense (in terms of interface design) for a setting of 50 in most osliders to give you figure of human proportions. Just try it! 50 in height, head size, leg, arm, neck, torso and hip length will put a female av at 183cm (a shadow over 6 feet) tall. That might not sound so bad, but check the proportions. 9 'heads' tall (humans are normally around 7 - 7.5), with short arms and over-long legs. No coincidence that these are the commonest problems I've seen in SL avs. 

[valerie Inshan]

I will certainly not say anything to a total stranger without being asked. But if my partner Ajja appears with some ridiculous watermelon head or big paws instead of hands, He'd better edit his appearance fast!!! :smileyvery-happy:

[Deltango Vale]

Here is a very good article:

http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2011/04/secrets-to-a-sexy-second-life-shape.html#more

Personally, I dislike the 'perfect' avatar. As with RL, one needs to work with flaws to create character.

[Penny Patton]

"Personally, I dislike the 'perfect' avatar. As with RL, one needs to work with flaws to create character."

I agree completely with this statement. However, it is important to note that there's a huge difference between "a perfect shape" and understanding/working with good human proportions. I haven't seen it in this thread, but often when the topic comes up there are those who confuse "human proportion" with "everyone looking the same" and that's just not true. You only need to look out your window, or walk down the street to see that.

[Eanya Dalek]

I stopped saying anything to anyone about their avatar when I realized that viewers and computer systems have a lot to do with what you see on your screen.  They may be looking absolutely perfect on their end and wonder what your thinking?  Lag of course can make someone look incomplete as well.  Hope this helps.

[Bree Giffen]

I've been taking pics recently and I've gotten a few obviously male avatars who have been ruthed. Yes Ruth is alive and well it seems! I wonder if being ruthed is a special case where you can tell someone how they look without hesitation. I've never met a person who has said they wanted to be ruth-shaped.

[Mila Edelman]

 

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Kelli May wrote:

I've been told I need bigger boobs, a smaller butt, a larger butt, a slimmer waist, shorter arms, longer legs, narrower shoulders, less muscle, less fat... but also complimented for the same 'deficiencies'.

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The "bigger boobs" part cracked me up. Not because someone had the nerve to say it (yay anonymous world--I've had men say that to me, too), but I've heard it before.

My "me" shape has 34D's. She has 34D's because I have 34D's (I developed early). In real life, they're noticeably large, especially next to my small waist. It's been an obstacle in my life, because in meeting new people, few look at my face. And then there's the stereotype about blondes with large chests. There's also the back pain, and the danger of taking out small children if I turn around too quickly (it's happened, sorry to my nephew). But I got my grandmother's shape, and it's a reminder, every day, of where and who I come from.

But compared to the 42NNN's I see walking around, I must seem nearly flat-chested! I see my "me" shape when walking around, it's ME exploring. Great, fun. To have some random men in clubs tell me I should add to the chest, I look at myself and go, "Really? Do I NEED more back pain?"

 

[Penny Patton]

There was a thread on breast size a couple of months ago. One thing I've noticed is that people underestimate their breast size to an extreme degree. I've seen people who clearly have DD's talking about their "modest B cups". Then again, I think I may be the only person on the grid who has actually taken the time to measure their chest. (Which you can do by hopping on a pose stand and using tiny 10cm prims as a measuring tape.)

My avatar is pretty exaggerated in that area so I'm not criticizing large breasts, but it's interesting to see people with huge breasts who seem to honestly think they're small, in the same way you tend to see 7-8' tall giants walking around stating in their profiles that they're only 6' tall. It really messes with perceptions.

 

As far as things like arm length, human arms tend to fall within a very narrow ratio of proportion. Your arms (hands included) should be, when stretched out to either side, as long as you are tall. Within about 3 inches. Given some very odd limits to the avatar shape editor, women have a much more difficult time getting proportional arm lengths with taller avatars. My avatar is 5'7" (actual height measured by prim, not the incorrect height of the appearance editor and most scripted height detectors), and my arms are just right at about 90 on the arm length slider.

[Stella Carver]

I've very seldom actually told anyone they looked 'off'. I do love making shapes though, so if I'm talking with someone and they're new, or just seem to need a little help, I'll tell them that I make shapes for fun and ask if they'll try some and tell me what they think. Most of the time, they're wearing one of them the next time I see them.

I did have a friend recently who I tried this with (dance partner I posted about) and I haven't seen him since. I'm hoping that I didn't hurt his feelings.

[Clarissa Lowell]

 

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Kelli May wrote: It'd make sense (in terms of interface design) for a setting of 50 in most osliders to give you figure of human proportions. Just try it! 50 in height, head size, leg, arm, neck, torso and hip length will put a female av at 183cm (a shadow over 6 feet) tall. That might not sound so bad, but check the proportions. 9 'heads' tall (humans are normally around 7 - 7.5), with short arms and over-long legs. No coincidence that these are the commonest problems I've seen in SL avs. 

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Don't know if this is still the case, but in the 'old days' of Second Life, we were told one way to make a good shape if you were uneasy about working the sliders was to just set everything to 50.

 

[Clarissa Lowell]

 

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Mila Edelman wrote:

 

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Kelli May wrote:

I've been told I need bigger boobs, a smaller butt, a larger butt, a slimmer waist, shorter arms, longer legs, narrower shoulders, less muscle, less fat... but also complimented for the same 'deficiencies'.

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The "bigger boobs" part cracked me up. Not because someone had the nerve to say it (yay anonymous world--I've had men say that to me, too), but I've heard it before.

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Some men try to pick women up by "negging" them - in real life and in Second Life.

neg - verb - see: mild to outrageous insult in an attempt to deflate a woman's self esteem and make her ripe for the picking.

I hate negging. :smileymad: