Solar Legion Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 1 minute ago, Qie Niangao said: I understand that you don't think any mainland should have any value, and that making a market of it somehow interferes with its appeal, detering folks from using it. Some part of Mainland users may benefit from that approach -- a pretty perfect overlap with Linden Homes adopters, I suspect -- but in general, I think you're ignoring the majority of Mainlanders. On top of ignoring reality itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phorumities Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 1 minute ago, Qie Niangao said: I understand that you don't think any mainland should have any value, and that making a market of it somehow interferes with its appeal, detering folks from using it. Some part of Mainland users may benefit from that approach -- a pretty perfect overlap with Linden Homes adopters, I suspect -- but in general, I think you're ignoring the majority of Mainlanders. The only real value land has is in the tier it generates for LL labs and they should have their attitude. Land can still have value to residents though. If you own land on a road, or water, or on a mountaintop with a nice view, you would still be able to sell it for whatever price the market will bear. There would be far far more mainlanders if mainland were easier to acquire 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phorumities Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 4 minutes ago, Solar Legion said: On top of ignoring reality itself. what is the reality? Overpriced parcels that no one will ever buy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phorumities Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 Lets not forget, when you buy land all you are really buying is the right to pay tier. Why wouldn't LL want make it as easy as possible for as many people as possible to pay tier on mainland? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qie Niangao Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 20 minutes ago, Phorumities said: Land can still have value to residents though. If you own land on a road, or water, or on a mountaintop with a nice view, you would still be able to sell it for whatever price the market will bear. So... the only difference between what you're suggesting and how things are now is that abandoned land would be available at L$1 per parcel regardless of size, rather than L$1 per sq.m.? That really would have no effect whatsoever. The one-time L$1 in either case is only a nominal fee, utterly de minimis compared to recurring tier (and/or Premium subscription) costs. There's just no there there. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solar Legion Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 This has been "discussed" to death already. Move on and if you're truly serious about your oh so lovely idea .... Go build your own grid. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phorumities Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 17 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said: So... the only difference between what you're suggesting and how things are now is that abandoned land would be available at L$1 per parcel regardless of size, rather than L$1 per sq.m.? That really would have no effect whatsoever. The one-time L$1 in either case is only a nominal fee, utterly de minimis compared to recurring tier (and/or Premium subscription) costs. There's just no there there. So would you rather pay $1 L per sq m, or $1 L per parcel. I can buy a parcel on a private estate for $1 L, why shouldn't LL make the same offering? As for the initial cost, that's what I have been saying all along, it's the tier, not the cost of the land. People would be all over $1 L parcels, but we'll never find out, because it will never be implemented. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phorumities Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Solar Legion said: This has been "discussed" to death already. Move on and if you're truly serious about your oh so lovely idea .... Go build your own grid. Please feel free to ignore my posts, but as long as people offer suggestions for "improving" mainland, I'll offer my $1 L per parcel plan. But IF I did build my own grid, I wouldn't put up artificial barriers to people buying land, I'd want them to buy as much as quickly as possible, and if all I want is tier, then FREE would be the way to go. That's what the land barons do. Edited August 31, 2018 by Phorumities added a line 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blush Bravin Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Phorumities said: Why do you say parcels of less than 144 sq m are banned? The smallest parcel you can make is still 16 sq m. I could cut a parcel that size out of my land and sell it if i wished. source: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Mainland_policies "We therefore may, in our sole discretion, move any parcel of land that is smaller than or equal to 128 sqm where such land is interfering with the enjoyment of a significantly larger parcel of land or region." Technically not banned but frowned on by Linden Lab. I saw Guy Linden come in and join parcels that had been cut into small pieces in a region adjacent to mine a few years back. But as I said earlier you can still find little "ad farm"ish parcels with ads on them if you travel along any roadway in SL for very long. Edited August 31, 2018 by Blush Bravin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blush Bravin Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 39 minutes ago, Phorumities said: So would you rather pay $1 L per sq m, or $1 L per parcel. I can buy a parcel on a private estate for $1 L, why shouldn't LL make the same offering? As for the initial cost, that's what I have been saying all along, it's the tier, not the cost of the land. People would be all over $1 L parcels, but we'll never find out, because it will never be implemented. The biggest problem I see in your plan is that it does nothing to stop the monopolization of all the good lands by land flippers. They may not be able to buy all of mainland but they can certainly control all the good land unless a huge renovation is made to make all of mainland attractive. Just making the ugly mainland sell for 1L per parcel isn't enough to get people to buy those ugly lands. It's kind of like saying, "Hey I have a (insert the most undesirable thing you can imagine here) for sale, it used to sell for a dollar a piece but on special today you can have the whole thing for that dollar." Do you really think people are going to buy it just cause it's cheaper now? Unless those ugly lands are renovated with much more than just road access, they are going to stay unpopulated regardless of purchase price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 17 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said: The biggest problem I see in your plan is that it does nothing to stop the monopolization of all the good lands by land flippers. They may not be able to buy all of mainland but they can certainly control all the good land unless a huge renovation is made to make all of mainland attractive. Just making the ugly mainland sell for 1L per parcel isn't enough to get people to buy those ugly lands. It's kind of like saying, "Hey I have a (insert the most undesirable thing you can imagine here) for sale, it used to sell for a dollar a piece but on special today you can have the whole thing for that dollar." Do you really think people are going to buy it just cause it's cheaper now? Unless those ugly lands are renovated with much more than just road access, they are going to stay unpopulated regardless of purchase price. Because of user attrition, most “good” land will eventually become available at market prices, once the leaving user gets desperate enough to sell. You just need to be smart / get lucky as a buyer. I snapped up my current adult mainland coastal region at a good rate because the seller had it set to “sell to anyone”, while he intended to sell it to a specific individual. He wasn’t mad about it, and even sold me the missing parcel so I would have the entire region. I may sell if I want a sim again, and I’ll probably do the same - sell at a discounted rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blush Bravin Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 2 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said: Because of user attrition, most “good” land will eventually become available at market prices, once the leaving user gets desperate enough to sell. You just need to be smart / get lucky as a buyer. I snapped up my current adult mainland coastal region at a good rate because the seller had it set to “sell to anyone”, while he intended to sell it to a specific individual. He wasn’t mad about it, and even sold me the missing parcel so I would have the entire region. I may sell if I want a sim again, and I’ll probably do the same - sell at a discounted rate. Yes, there's always an exception to the rule. I have done the same. I've always owned prime mainland. Typically I've gotten a fairly good deals on the land I've purchased because I'm smart about it having been partnered to a person in the SL land biz and watching how he managed his business. But I'm talking about the big picture and not the exceptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindal Kidd Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 6 hours ago, Phorumities said: Why do you say parcels of less than 144 sq m are banned? The smallest parcel you can make is still 16 sq m. I could cut a parcel that size out of my land and sell it if i wished. Yes you can! I can even find some parcels like that for sale on the map. What you can't do is use them for ad farming...those ugly fields of rotating columns. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindal Kidd Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 5 hours ago, Qie Niangao said: I'm sorry Lindal but I just don't think this is true in the case of land bots, or any other bot really unless it's on land set to Search (so the traffic statistic matters) and it hasn't been designated a "scripted agent" (so its presence isn't counted toward traffic). Land bots also serve a useful purpose. They do bad stuff, too, but in lieu of the upcoming resident-to-resident auctions, land bots are the only alternative to abandonment for immediate tier relief at the bottom of the Mainland market. Nope, land bots are no longer allowed. Here is a quote from LL's Bot Policy: "Using bots to purchase Mainland parcels is not allowed "The use of bots, autonomous software, scripting (manual or automated), scripted agents, or any systems or software internal or external to the Second Life service that circumvent, automate and/or remove the human interaction required to purchase a Land parcel within Second Life on the Linden Lab owned Mainland is prohibited." (I suppose one could still use bots to search for land, as long as you then purchased the land manually.) As for traffic bots, they're not allowed either (or, as you say, they are allowed, but only in such a way as to completely negate the reason for using them in the first place!) But that does not mean they aren't still around. I recently found a mob of traffic bots on a sky platform on the sim of a very well known seller of mesh bodies and heads. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindal Kidd Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 4 hours ago, Phorumities said: Please feel free to ignore my posts, but as long as people offer suggestions for "improving" mainland, I'll offer my $1 L per parcel plan. But IF I did build my own grid, I wouldn't put up artificial barriers to people buying land, I'd want them to buy as much as quickly as possible, and if all I want is tier, then FREE would be the way to go. That's what the land barons do. Unlike Solar, I won't dismiss your idea with a shrug and a "go build your own grid". I think your idea of re-working the Mainland to increase the percentage of waterfront parcels has merit, although it would be a right nightmare to implement. I'm on an oceanfront region, Masocado. The region behind me has a nice sea view, and is a pleasant hilltop, but it keeps changing hands because it has no waterfront. I don't agree with your idea of eliminating a purchase price, though. For one thing, those of us who already have a sizable investment in our Mainland parcels would be seriously shafted. For another thing, the purchase price is the only discriminator between "desirable" mainland (e.g., protected waterfront) and less desirable parcels (e.g., landlocked). Tier is the same, regardless of location. Your assertion that the high-priced parcels offered by land flippers never sell is also not true. I know at least one person who bought a Horizons Home parcel for L$38,000 and considered it a bargain. And it was, too...considering other Horizons parcel owners are asking L$40,000 - L$60,000. The prices some parcel owners are asking seem insane...but in our free market, if they want to sell, they are free to lower their price. Conversely, if they wait, some buyer with deep pockets who really wants the land might just come along. As for the estate owners...they didn't always sell their parcels for $L1. When I started SL in 2007, 4096 private estate parcels routinely had an asking price of L$20,000 or more. And I am talking about flat, sandy, "waffle grid" estate parcels. It was fierce competition that caused a "race for the bottom" on estate parcel prices. When the land glut of 2010 made it impossible for many Mainland owners to sell at any price, and the supply of Abandoned land became...large, LL started offering Abandoned Mainland parcels at a flat $L1 per sq. m. This caused another "race for the bottom" as it set a de facto price on most Mainland (unless it had some very desirable feature like protected waterfront). In fact, you could even find some Mainland parcels at LESS than L$ 1 per m2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blush Bravin Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 23 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said: Nope, land bots are no longer allowed. Here is a quote from LL's Bot Policy: "Using bots to purchase Mainland parcels is not allowed "The use of bots, autonomous software, scripting (manual or automated), scripted agents, or any systems or software internal or external to the Second Life service that circumvent, automate and/or remove the human interaction required to purchase a Land parcel within Second Life on the Linden Lab owned Mainland is prohibited." (I suppose one could still use bots to search for land, as long as you then purchased the land manually.) As for traffic bots, they're not allowed either (or, as you say, they are allowed, but only in such a way as to completely negate the reason for using them in the first place!) But that does not mean they aren't still around. I recently found a mob of traffic bots on a sky platform on the sim of a very well known seller of mesh bodies and heads. I think it's interesting that in the enforcement section of that article there is no mention of how they will enforce the land bot prohibition. They do directly address the issue of gaming search and message volume. I suppose that's why they are still very active in mainland sales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Blush Bravin said: I think it's interesting that in the enforcement section of that article there is no mention of how they will enforce the land bot prohibition. They do directly address the issue of gaming search and message volume. I suppose that's why they are still very active in mainland sales. LL acknowledged that we had no way of knowing whether or not a bot is registered as a scripted agent, but told us to report what we thought were traffic bots, and they would deal with them. So enforcing the rule is just like anything else - ARs. Edited August 31, 2018 by Phil Deakins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blush Bravin Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said: LL acknowledged that we had no way of knowing whether or not a bot is registered as a scripted agent, but told us to report what we thought were traffic bots, and they would eal with them. So enforcing the rule is just like anything else - ARs. http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Bot_policy Linden Lab routinely looks at search results, and will treat use of bots to gain an unfair search advantage as an abuse issue. You do not need to file an abuse report for violations; Linden Lab monitors the search results. To begin, Linden Lab sends a warning message to the land owner. If the issue persists, then account suspension or removal from search may result. If you feel there has been an unfair decision in this regard, use the abuse appeals process. Linden Lab routinely looks at message volume, and will treat use of bots to send excessive messages as an abuse issue. You do not need to file an abuse report for violations; Linden Lab monitors aggregate communication volume. Emphasis mine. They seem to not want ARs filed on bots and do not address the means of enforcement directly in regards to land bots. Edited August 31, 2018 by Blush Bravin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phorumities Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 8 hours ago, Blush Bravin said: The biggest problem I see in your plan is that it does nothing to stop the monopolization of all the good lands by land flippers. They may not be able to buy all of mainland but they can certainly control all the good land unless a huge renovation is made to make all of mainland attractive. Just making the ugly mainland sell for 1L per parcel isn't enough to get people to buy those ugly lands. It's kind of like saying, "Hey I have a (insert the most undesirable thing you can imagine here) for sale, it used to sell for a dollar a piece but on special today you can have the whole thing for that dollar." Do you really think people are going to buy it just cause it's cheaper now? Unless those ugly lands are renovated with much more than just road access, they are going to stay unpopulated regardless of purchase price. Ugly land can be converted to a beautiful green prairie in about 30 seconds by LL. And as for land flippers buying up all the good lands, that's great because LL gets more tier. It's also great because if they have even more land for sale, they will have eventually to lower their prices, or maybe even offer lower prices right from the start. But why asume flippers will buy all the good parcels? they are just residents like you or me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blush Bravin Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 1 minute ago, Phorumities said: But why asume flippers will buy all the good parcels? they are just residents like you or me. Because they are in the business to do so. Are you a land flipper? I'm not. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phorumities Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 4 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said: Unlike Solar, I won't dismiss your idea with a shrug and a "go build your own grid". I think your idea of re-working the Mainland to increase the percentage of waterfront parcels has merit, although it would be a right nightmare to implement. I'm on an oceanfront region, Masocado. The region behind me has a nice sea view, and is a pleasant hilltop, but it keeps changing hands because it has no waterfront. I don't agree with your idea of eliminating a purchase price, though. For one thing, those of us who already have a sizable investment in our Mainland parcels would be seriously shafted. For another thing, the purchase price is the only discriminator between "desirable" mainland (e.g., protected waterfront) and less desirable parcels (e.g., landlocked). Tier is the same, regardless of location. Your assertion that the high-priced parcels offered by land flippers never sell is also not true. I know at least one person who bought a Horizons Home parcel for L$38,000 and considered it a bargain. And it was, too...considering other Horizons parcel owners are asking L$40,000 - L$60,000. The prices some parcel owners are asking seem insane...but in our free market, if they want to sell, they are free to lower their price. Conversely, if they wait, some buyer with deep pockets who really wants the land might just come along. As for the estate owners...they didn't always sell their parcels for $L1. When I started SL in 2007, 4096 private estate parcels routinely had an asking price of L$20,000 or more. And I am talking about flat, sandy, "waffle grid" estate parcels. It was fierce competition that caused a "race for the bottom" on estate parcel prices. When the land glut of 2010 made it impossible for many Mainland owners to sell at any price, and the supply of Abandoned land became...large, LL started offering Abandoned Mainland parcels at a flat $L1 per sq. m. This caused another "race for the bottom" as it set a de facto price on most Mainland (unless it had some very desirable feature like protected waterfront). In fact, you could even find some Mainland parcels at LESS than L$ 1 per m2. But why does mainland have to have any value at all? The cheaper the better as far as I'm concerned My mainland parcel is about 11,000 Sq m, and i probably paid about $ 25,000 L for it (someone will probably find the other post i made where i said a different price but its a ball park figure) That money spent was the price of admission, not an investment in the future. When it's time to move, I'm not gonna keep rolling over my tier month after month trying to get my money back. But think, if all parcels were $1 L, then you could abandon your land and pick up another at no cost beyond 3 or 4 L's. If I move, I'll list it at probably $2 L per sq m, because it is roadfront, but once I hit the tier date, I'll abandon it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phorumities Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said: Because they are in the business to do so. Are you a land flipper? I'm not. And how will these land flippers find all the good parcels as they are being converted from abandoned to $1 L per parcel? Will they follow the Linden tasked with doing it around the grid and every time he converts a parcel a flipper snaps it up? Edited August 31, 2018 by Phorumities fixed words 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blush Bravin Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Phorumities said: And how will these land flippers find all the good parcels as they are being converted from abandoned to $1 L per parcel? Do the follow the Linden tasked with doing it around the grid and every time he converts a parcel a flipper snaps it up? They open the map and check for new yellow blocks of land in the prime areas. If you're in the business this is second nature. Every morning it's the first thing you do. Edited August 31, 2018 by Blush Bravin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phorumities Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 15 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said: They open the map and check for new yellow blocks of land in the prime areas. If you're in the business this is second nature. Every morning it's the first thing you do. So if i was looking to move, couldn't I do the same thing? Wait, don't answer that, yes I would. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blush Bravin Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Phorumities said: So if i was looking to move, couldn't I do the same thing? Wait, don't answer that, yes I would. Yes, you would, but you'd buy one parcel and live on it. A land flipper will buy many parcels, jack-up the price, and then set on it until it sells or worse yet, if it doesn't sell resort to underhanded means to get you or one of your neighbors to buy him/her out. Of course you might think, oh well, I'll just abandon my land and move on, after all I didn't have to pay more than 1L to buy it in the first place. So you abandon and guess what ... the flipper buys it and then jacks up the price on it and then we are in the same mess we're in now. So the vicious cycle is propagated and we end up exactly where we began. The only way to end the cycle is to renovate all of Mainland so that all lands become valuable. As long as we have a glut of ugly land and only a limited supply of what is considered attractive the flippers will be able to control those lands and keep the prices high. Edited August 31, 2018 by Blush Bravin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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