music licensing

[Pari Perenti]

Does Linden Labs (SL) have the lisencing from BMI, ASCAP, etc, so that singer's/dj's in SL can play or sing the songs of other (original or otherwise) artist's songs in reference to paying royalties to those artist's songs?  Me as a singer myself, hold the right to sing my own songs that I have created, but i do know that i cannot sing other artist's songs without permission from them, either their own personal permission, or being licensed through the Harry Fox agency to be able to sing their songs and paying them royalties in real life, or to be licenced through BMI or ASCAP and the like to be able to play the songs that are not mine on my own website on the interenet.

My questions are, what has LL (SL) done as far as music licensing goes and paying royaties to artists, to protect the artists whose songs are being sung and played by the many singers and dj's here in SL, who many may not be aware that they are infringing on copyrights unless they have the permission of the artists or being licensed to do so.  Does LL have the license to allow people to sing or dj other artists songs?

It is very important for us all who perform in SL to know this if we are going to sing and dj songs other than our own. I am signed up with BMI, SongTrust, and SoundExchange for my own songs that I have created, and i do know those agencies are supposed to collect royalties for me anytime my songs get sung and played anywhere around the world and on the interenet, so i do know this needs to discussed.  Many people have gotten sued and fined heavily for not paying royalties to artists whose songs are being played without permission, so please, SL, clarify what you are doing to keep people in here and yourself from getting sued and fined or even prosecuted everytime someones song is being played/sung in SL that is not their own.  Us singers/dj's need to know what you have done in this respect to music licensing, and being that this is happening all over SL everyday.

Thanks

Pari Perenti

[LXIX Tomorrow]

14 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

nobody cares

lol, I like they way you put it.  Most of the time I contend that it's far easier to seek forgiveness than to seek permission, if they ever come after me, I'll gladly return all of the money I've ever made performing in SL ... I'm pretty sure I have that much in my wallet right now.

[LXIX Tomorrow]

Their attitude about this may have changed eventually, but as a live performer who used to worry about this, we contacted BMI and ASCAP directly, and explained exactly what we were doing.  In a nutshell, performing cover songs at a virtual venue in front of a live audience made up of avatars that have real people driving them and listening to our performances ... hand over my heart, they laughed and said "don't worry about it".

[Lindal Kidd]

On 12/4/2012 at 5:24 AM, Sparkling Huntress said:

(quotes from BMI and ASCAP regarding the responsibility of venues for licensing)

So wouldn't that keep DJs safe in SL?

No.  Second Life is not a "venue" and LL doesn't derive income (directly) from DJs and live performers.  The virtual clubs where they perform may benefit from their performance (or they may have paid them to perform!)  One could, I suppose, argue that LL derives indirect income...the performer draws a crowd, they pay tips, the club gets a share, the club pays tier to LL.  But that is really stretching it.

In most cases in SL, the performer herself is the primary beneficiary, and is (theoretically) responsible for having obtained the necessary performance licenses for her music.  However, as LXIX Tomorrow pointed out, the amounts of money involved are so tiny, nobody cares.

As for the parcel music streams playing all over SL...as Fiona says, these are publicly available internet radio streams.  They're already licensed and are "broadcasting" to anyone who tunes them in.

[Lindal Kidd]

Ethan, you are (again, technically) correct.  But as LXIX pointed out, ASCAP and BMI both told him not to bother.

If some DJ in SL was to be taken to court over failure to pay music royalties, the defense's counter argument would be:

"If my client had known the amount of the royalties demanded, he would never have engaged in performing your music, because obviously he would have had no hope of earning enough from the performances to even cover the royalties.  In which case, you would not have received said royalties.  Therefore, you have no grounds to demand them now, since you would never have made any money in the first place."

[Lindal Kidd]

Which brings up an interesting question...does a Dutch DJ have to obey the licensing rules of his home country, or US copyright and licensing laws?

Linden Lab is based in the US.  The DJ in question is Dutch.  The audience is, potentially, from anywhere in the world.

We could keep the lawyers busy for years.

Edited February 7, 2019 by Lindal Kidd

[bigmoe Whitfield]

If you want to be legit,  I do this, because I host several shows, even away from SL.

 

http://www.streamlicensing.com/

 

basically 60 bucks usd a month.

[bigmoe Whitfield]

5 hours ago, Ethan Paslong said:

you forget a important thing, typical for some here, your BMI ans ASCAP have nothing to do with the rest of the world out of your country. Try imagining that for once.

 

If they would of clicked my link they would of seen the package I showed for 60 usd a month only covers the US, it does not cover anything international.    I gave them a legit way of being legal within the US,  up for them to seek out the legal side of things from this point out.   if they want to continue to host streams without paying the royalties that's fine. they will get caught at some point, it's why I'm licensed,  one of my shows was popped in 2007, and well, it was either legal way or pay the fines way. 

[bigmoe Whitfield]

12 hours ago, LXIX Tomorrow said:

I did click your link, there's nothing there for me.  I'm an individual performer, I play guitar and sing at other peoples venues, I don't push my own stream, there's no provision for that sort of thing on the website you provided.  In the state where I live, for a very short time it was the performer's responsibility to make sure they weren't violating any copyright laws, but the state quickly turned that over and made it the venue owners responsibility.  At one of the bars where I play, the owner only pays BMI, and she's gotten very good at recognizing which songs are covered by BMI and which are covered by someone else.  She looks at my song list and says "you can't do that one, you can't do that one, all the rest are ok".  My point is, in the real world, the venue owners pay, not me.

okay nvm,  with myreply. I see what all I need to with this reply.   have fun.

 

Edited February 18, 2019 by bigmoe Whitfield

[bigmoe Whitfield]

On 4/29/2019 at 8:39 AM, LXIX Tomorrow said:

I just thought this was worth revisiting, since I had a chance to talk to a lawyer, a real live  honest to goodness lawyer, not someone who pretends to be a lawyer on SL.

He confirmed what my bar owner friend told me about the law in this state, and made a couple of extra points.  Basically, the state legislature here recognized the fact that the ASCAP and BMI where "double dipping", that is charging the venue and the performer for the exact same thing at the exact same time, that's called double dipping, and it's against the law.  So they decided that they should mandate who pays, and since the venue owner stands to gain more, they decided that venue owners in this state will pay the fees, and not the performers, period.

So then I asked him about this online thing that I do in a virtual world called Second Life, the first thing he said was "as long as your ass is sitting in this state when you log on, the laws of this state prevail and you don't have to pay, the venue owner pays".  Then I explained how the game owner, Linden Labs, is in California but inside the game there are separate venue owners who operate under the confines of the game using virtual, or game, currency that can be converted to real currency.  I also explained that the streams that we use are broadcast separately from SL and the individual venue owners allow that stream to be heard in their virtual locations.  His off the cuff response was that Linden Labs controls what is or isn't allowed inside the game, so they would ultimately be considered the venue owner, but he also said that he would need to look into that a little further, and he charges $500 per hour, so that's where the legal advice ended.

He did reiterate, that as long as my ass is sitting in this state, the performer does not pay, the venue owner (whoever that is) pays.

Good luck getting the venue owner in SL to pay anything.  you are the one doing the performing,  so word of advice, this "lawyer" person you talked too.  will be handy when you get smacked for unlicensed broadcasting outside your little state.  

[Pari Perenti]

Does Linden Labs (SL) have the lisencing from BMI, ASCAP, etc, so that singer's/dj's in SL can play or sing the songs of other (original or otherwise) artist's songs in reference to paying royalties to those artist's songs?  Me as a singer myself, hold the right to sing my own songs that I have created, but i do know that i cannot sing other artist's songs without permission from them, either their own personal permission, or being licensed through the Harry Fox agency to be able to sing their songs and paying them royalties in real life, or to be licenced through BMI or ASCAP and the like to be able to play the songs that are not mine on my own website on the interenet.

My questions are, what has LL (SL) done as far as music licensing goes and paying royaties to artists, to protect the artists whose songs are being sung and played by the many singers and dj's here in SL, who many may not be aware that they are infringing on copyrights unless they have the permission of the artists or being licensed to do so.  Does LL have the license to allow people to sing or dj other artists songs?

It is very important for us all who perform in SL to know this if we are going to sing and dj songs other than our own. I am signed up with BMI, SongTrust, and SoundExchange for my own songs that I have created, and i do know those agencies are supposed to collect royalties for me anytime my songs get sung and played anywhere around the world and on the interenet, so i do know this needs to discussed.  Many people have gotten sued and fined heavily for not paying royalties to artists whose songs are being played without permission, so please, SL, clarify what you are doing to keep people in here and yourself from getting sued and fined or even prosecuted everytime someones song is being played/sung in SL that is not their own.  Us singers/dj's need to know what you have done in this respect to music licensing, and being that this is happening all over SL everyday.

Thanks

Pari Perenti

[PeterCanessa Oh]

LL's position is that they provide SL as a platform.  It is individuals' responsibilities to ensure they are in compliance with the law, have the required licences and are paying the relevant royalties.

I'm quite with you on this.  More DJs and performers need to get sued.

[Sparkling Huntress]

This is on a BMI FAQ page:  http://www.bmi.com/licensing/faq

 

Q: If Musicians Are Playing Live Music, Aren't They Responsible For Public Performance Fees?

Since it's the business or organization that's benefiting from the performance of music, management is responsible for ensuring that the organization is properly licensed. This responsibility cannot be passed on to anyone else even if the musicians hired are independent contractors.

 

And this one is from ASCAP: http://www.ascap.com/licensing/licensingfaq.aspx

 

Aren't musicians, entertainers and DJ's responsible for obtaining permission for music they perform?

Some people mistakenly assume that musicians and entertainers must obtain licenses to perform copyrighted music or that businesses where music is performed can shift their responsibility to musicians or entertainers. The law says all who participate in, or are responsible for, performances of music are legally responsible. Since it is the business owner who obtains the ultimate benefit from the performance, it is the business owner who obtains the license. Music license fees are one of the many costs of doing business.

 

So wouldn't that keep DJs safe in SL?

[RachelMoira]

I would like to see an official Linden Labs response to this question. While BMI and ASCAP agree that it is the "Business Owners" responsibility and that even if the DJ is an "Independent Contractor" (owns his/her own business) the venue (Nightclub, website, etc ...) is still responsible for the licensing NOT THE DJ, Linden Labs states that you cannot share Intellectual Property which you do not have permission to share on thier service.

Since SL broadcasts music in EVERY PART of the SL world that is covered by the ASCAP and various international copyright management companies, it should be able to be safely assumed that they have obtained those broadcast rights and that music from those libraries (which are EXCLUSIVELY rebroadcast within SL) are already protected by those licenses.

If, however, a ShoutCast or IceCast (as examples) is broadcast both within and OUTSIDE of SL, a seperate license would need to be held by that individual broadcaster.

[Fionalein]

On 9/22/2016 at 5:56 AM, RachelMoira said:

If, however, a ShoutCast or IceCast (as examples) is broadcast both within and OUTSIDE of SL, a seperate license would need to be held by that individual broadcaster.

Does that even make sense? Nothing is broadcast in SL only. Every stream is accessible to anyone outside SL who knows the stream's address.

Edited February 6, 2019 by Fionalein

[Ethan Paslong]

3 hours ago, LXIX Tomorrow said:

Let me guess, you pretend to be a lawyer when you're logged into SL, am I right?

Perhaps you didn't read the part where I said ... "we contacted BMI and ASCAP directly" ... hand over my heart, they laughed and said "don't worry about it".

Jeeze, clearly you're one of those beautiful mind geniuses who's always right about everything ... good luck with that.

you forget a important thing, typical for some here, your BMI ans ASCAP have nothing to do with the rest of the world out of your country. Try imagining that for once.

[Ethan Paslong]

13 minutes ago, LXIX Tomorrow said:

 if they ever come after me, I'll gladly return all of the money I've ever made performing in SL

They don't come after you for the money you make, but for the royalties* you didn't pay. The possible payment you got inworld is only taken as a proof you worked commercially.

* this can be thousends of dollars... if you didn't save your playlists to show your use of mucis they will make a general estimation and you won't make jokes about it anymore.

Edited February 7, 2019 by Ethan Paslong

[Ethan Paslong]

30 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

you are (again, technically) correct.  But as LXIX pointed out, ASCAP and BMI both told him not to bother.

not only technically depends also of your location and national laws.
As loyal always obeing dutch citizen ...... here it would not make a difference if you made earnings or not. You broadcasted, so are subject to pay the royalties, unless you got permission upfront to use the music for non profit organisations. As said several times before, here you have to get a license from BUMA/STEMRA for the broadcasting, ánd one by STENA for using the music. For the royalties you have to hand over playlists with the time a song is played, how often ánd how many listeners, to calculate the royaltie fee. Small stations, as a SL DJ is, would be able to buy the royalties off in one amount as subscription.

[Ethan Paslong]

18 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

Which brings up an interesting question...does a Dutch DJ have to obey the licensing rules of his home country, or US copyright and licensing laws?

Linden Lab is based in the US.  The DJ in question is Dutch.  The audience is, potentially, from anywhere in the world.

We could keep the lawyers busy for years.

there are for sure some interesting things to discover, but streaming happens from home, that's your residence for taxes and other governmental fees.

Fun thing is.. however fun... some clubs on SL offer their stream to DJ's .. in that case the club is responsible for at least partly the fees, because in that case they are the party that make the music public. The DJ only needs the license for broadcasting and royalties.

Of course this is only the official way.. i seriously don't know any DJ on SL who follows the rules, he would be broke within a month.
But not that long ago, a school nearby had to stop their schoolradio for such issue. If you get reported they will investigate if you'r following the rules, there's no active search for small broadcasters.
 

[LXIX Tomorrow]

On 2/16/2019 at 4:20 AM, bigmoe Whitfield said:

If they would of clicked my link

I did click your link, there's nothing there for me.  I'm an individual performer, I play guitar and sing at other peoples venues, I don't push my own stream, there's no provision for that sort of thing on the website you provided.  In the state where I live, for a very short time it was the performer's responsibility to make sure they weren't violating any copyright laws, but the state quickly turned that over and made it the venue owners responsibility.  At one of the bars where I play, the owner only pays BMI, and she's gotten very good at recognizing which songs are covered by BMI and which are covered by someone else.  She looks at my song list and says "you can't do that one, you can't do that one, all the rest are ok".  My point is, in the real world, the venue owners pay, not me.

[LXIX Tomorrow]

I just thought this was worth revisiting, since I had a chance to talk to a lawyer, a real live  honest to goodness lawyer, not someone who pretends to be a lawyer on SL.

He confirmed what my bar owner friend told me about the law in this state, and made a couple of extra points.  Basically, the state legislature here recognized the fact that the ASCAP and BMI where "double dipping", that is charging the venue and the performer for the exact same thing at the exact same time, that's called double dipping, and it's against the law.  So they decided that they should mandate who pays, and since the venue owner stands to gain more, they decided that venue owners in this state will pay the fees, and not the performers, period.

So then I asked him about this online thing that I do in a virtual world called Second Life, the first thing he said was "as long as your ass is sitting in this state when you log on, the laws of this state prevail and you don't have to pay, the venue owner pays".  Then I explained how the game owner, Linden Labs, is in California but inside the game there are separate venue owners who operate under the confines of the game using virtual, or game, currency that can be converted to real currency.  I also explained that the streams that we use are broadcast separately from SL and the individual venue owners allow that stream to be heard in their virtual locations.  His off the cuff response was that Linden Labs controls what is or isn't allowed inside the game, so they would ultimately be considered the venue owner, but he also said that he would need to look into that a little further, and he charges $500 per hour, so that's where the legal advice ended.

He did reiterate, that as long as my ass is sitting in this state, the performer does not pay, the venue owner (whoever that is) pays.

[LXIX Tomorrow]

On 2/6/2019 at 10:21 PM, Ethan Paslong said:

The possible payment you got inworld is only taken as a proof you worked commercially ... they will make a general estimation and you won't make jokes about it anymore.

Let me guess, you pretend to be a lawyer when you're logged into SL, am I right?

Perhaps you didn't read the part where I said ... "we contacted BMI and ASCAP directly" ... hand over my heart, they laughed and said "don't worry about it".

Jeeze, clearly you're one of those beautiful mind geniuses who's always right about everything ... good luck with that.

Edited February 16, 2019 by LXIX Tomorrow

[LXIX Tomorrow]

On 2/15/2019 at 10:21 PM, Ethan Paslong said:

you forget a important thing

Yep, always right about everything ... your mommy must be sooooo proud.