Those cars on the mainland roads. Grrrrrrr.

[Marianne McCann]

Still seeing none of them on the roads or rails today, neither. Interesting.

[Polenth Yue]

---

Qie Niangao wrote:

To be honest, though, I kind of miss them.  Well, maybe not quite as many as there were at one time, and maybe not exactly how they behaved in their current state of development, and... well, they raise difficult questions that were explored in gory and repetitive detail earlier in this thread.  But the Mainland does seem a little less interesting without some activity on the roads and rails.

---

Unless there's been an announcement to the contrary, I don't think they're gone for good. The bus station next to me still has all the bits... it's just the rezzer is turned off. My hope would be they've been deactivated for improvements.

[Marianne McCann]

---

Polenth Yue wrote:

Unless there's been an announcement to the contrary, I don't think they're gone for good. The bus station next to me still has all the bits... it's just the rezzer is turned off. My hope would be they've been deactivated for improvements.

---

I suspect you're right. Perhaps just some glitch with the latest server versions or something. I am going to enjoy a world without drunken vehicles, though, as long as I can.

[ChiTown Streeter]

I think they have improved. I saw a few cars on the road today and I tried to flip them and run them off of the road. They can't be made to stay off road, even if someone manages to get one off of it. When I clicked on them and selected edit, they started to rise, derez and rez again down the road. They try to avoid hitting AVs and, since I had on my Move Lock, the cars searched for a way around me, then fly over my head if they could not find one. Afterwards, they stayed on the road. I can ride my bike now and not have to worry about the cars.

Also, when my bike crashed onto someone's land or went under the roadway, it returned to the road too! I just recently bought the bike and I don't know if its scripts detect the pavement, but I can always ride back home on the original bike. Maybe part of the 'fix' was done by Linden Labs. I like it. :matte-motes-smile:

[Knowl Paine]

Just over 2 months since the OP and I have noticed some improvement. I suspect that some of the current challenges were created by Roadbuilders who got a little curve-happy. One road I looked at is over 4 years old and in dog years thats like 28 years, from that perspective the road is old and out of date, imo. The LDPW needs to improve some road sections.

 

[Baloo Uriza]

---

Knowl Paine wrote:

Just over 2 months since the OP and I have noticed some improvement. I suspect that some of the current challenges were created by Roadbuilders who got a little curve-happy. One road I looked at is over 4 years old and in dog years thats like 28 years, from that perspective the road is old and out of date, imo. The LDPW needs to improve some road sections.

---

Eeh, save for a relative lack of signals, consistent surface markings and signage that would make driving some segments much more authentic or easier, the highways are overall in good shape.

[Randall Ahren]

Yes, I saw one of the autobots today as well. It was a big white bus on the SLRR near Tenera station. There was also a couple of griefer objects in the sandbox by Tenera station that filled up my chat queue with "yOu aRe a nOOb" until the spam protector on Phoenix muted it.

[Qie Niangao]

At least on the SLRR, the situation seems radically different from what it was when this thread started (which, incidentally, was already radically different from when I first noticed these vehicles around my parcels).

 

• My maps display every vehicle on every branch of the SLRR (currently excepting the Bay City spur).  The number of these particular vehicles on the SLRR has reduced dramatically in recent weeks.
• I can't find any of them still asking for tips.
• I haven't seen any of them on the SLRR that don't have a kind of rail car undercarriage (that's very recent).
• I have no current evidence than any of them are not now phantom.

It may be that I've just been lucky in my recent encounters, which admittedly have been mostly limited to the SLRR, but the changes I've seen are dramatic enough that I think those still complaining about these things really should make very sure they still have a valid reason to complain.

That's not to say there aren't further improvements that would be welcome.  I'd (really) like to see the number of scripts reduced, for example. And of course there is and will always be room for improving aesthetics.  (Speaking for myself, however, it's growing difficult to get motivated to work on any non-Mesh builds these days, so it seems only reasonable if this creator has chosen to postpone such surface improvements -- especially to prim-constrained physical vehicles -- until Mesh is in wide use.)

One complaint that I think is quite unjustified is that these vehicles are somehow sidestepping the autoreturn settings on Linden public land in some special way.  They're simply crossing parcel boundaries before the time limit expires -- and they're not doing that artificially, but as a side-effect of traversing the right-of-way.  There's no exploit, magic, nor special treatment involved.

Also, there are many ways in which innocent intent can lead to resource conflicts.  One SLRR-related case is the increased use of "follower" assemblies to add cars behind the (usually non-physical) ridden vehicle.  That adds realism, and it's not done with evil intent or anything, but in fact it has quite worse consequences on many parts of the SLRR than do the low-prim physical automated vehicles discussed in this thread.  That's because those unridden "followers" count directly against the parcel prim limits, so they can easily exhaust all available prims in some sims with shorter rights-of-way (and hence, fewer prims), making it impossible for another train with any follower assembly to enter that sim.  I'm not suggesting that something needs to be done about this -- LL already has a lot of prims available in most sims, and there's no urgent need to restrict the use of such assemblies.  I only mention it as another case of one user's creations potentially interfering with others' use of a shared resource.

Finally, there is one very easy thing that I really would like LL to do that would somewhat reduce problems caused by these and other vehicles that get stranded, caught on a no-auto-return parcel but encroaching on another (often no-object-entry) parcel: Enable the manual return of encroaching objects on the Mainland.  This feature has been in the sims for a while now, and Estate owners can enable it on their sims, but it remains turned off for the Mainland. 

As far as I can tell from listening to developers, the problem is that there's simply no Linden in a position to decide such things anymore, or at least none willing to make themselves known by actually doing anything about it.  That's a pretty sorry state of affairs.  I'd dearly love to be proven wrong.  (hint hint goad goad)

[Qie Niangao]

Son of a...

---

• I can't find any of them still asking for tips.
• I haven't seen any of them on the SLRR that don't have a kind of rail car undercarriage (that's very recent).

---

I've now seen both of those again.

The second one doesn't really bother me much.  It will be better when they conform to their settings, but as I said: we can't really blame somebody for not scrambling to produce a soon-to-be-obsolete prim or sculpty build, with Mesh just around the corner.

The first, however, is genuinely troubling. 

[Cerise Sorbet]

The little flying bubble cars know to curve around this, none of the drunken ground vehicles were in the area to see what they do. I found this interesting road feature the hard way.

[Mackone Metaller]

I have been shot today on Route 11, in a public and safe place, Gorgonzola sim, as a pedestrian watching 2 unmanned vehicles bumping each other, one of them was a tank. I have to mention that i didn't clicked on any of them as some might think. damn tank just shooted right at me, i have a clear screenshot if someone is interested. I filled an AR but i doubt any Linden will do anything about this. I suggest starting a petition on a dedicated website and see how many people feels that those vehicles should disappear, making SL a lot less laggy than it is right now. As someone previously said here, roads are empty because of bad sim crossings and laggy ugly vehicles who really doesn't bring any benefits in SL.

If we gather few thousand signatures, maybe LL will start thinking of changing this thing.

P.S. I think that AnnMarie Oleander is a Linden alt, or a Linden relative, how come after all the AR's filled and hundreds of messages in many blogs, including this one, those ugly things still lagging the grid?

[Marianne McCann]

---

Mackone Metaller wrote:

I suggest starting a petition on a dedicated website and see how many people feels that those vehicles should disappear, making SL a lot less laggy than it is right now. 

---

I believe there already is a petition around these things, linked off this blog: http://holocluck.blogspot.com/2011/06/message-to-rod-linden-re-scourgemobile.html

[Yevad Doobie]

Hmmm...isn't that from the same person that wants to get protected routes split up and no-object-entry parcels inserted?  No more follower trailers, no more trains with follower carriages and no more helicopters carrying loads along the mainland routes....after many of us have spent many hours finding accidental no-object-entry parcels and getting them corrected to allow residents to enjoy the routes with a multitude of vehicles.  One wanders how many tickets that person has made to get defects fixed, probably less than the number of fingers on my hands.  I imagine such hate filled petitions are the extent of his "contribution" to the routes.

 

I know we can't expect everyone to join my groups campaign to get the route defects fixed, but such negativity with little positive input only makes a person look selfish, bitter and twisted.  I am glad that the true route lovers outnumber the ones that want to try and control their use....

[Marianne McCann]

---

Yevad Doobie wrote:

Hmmm...isn't that from the same person that wants to get protected routes split up and no-object-entry parcels inserted?  

---

I want to say that something like that was mentioned by him in rail community meeting on 6/3, but I wasn't able to spot it in the minutes. I distinctly recall everyone saying "Uh, no" or something along those lines.

Me, I still feel that the creator of these things, no matter how well-intentioned she may be, has overstepped her bounds. There *are* some spaces her vehicles should not go, but she has managed to make vehicles that have nothing more than a rudimentary AI, and don't understand that not all LL owner parcels are created equal. The Route 6 bridlepath is one of these, IMO. There's a spot on Jeogeot where the LDPW made a "tunnel" at request of landowners there who did not want a road - but her vehicles don't "see" that distinction. Indeed, the mainland is full of exceptions that a human does see, but her drunken drivers can't spot at all.

By the same token, I do fall on the side of "tone it down" in regards to those vehicles. I think there's too many, and I think they can often annoy. I have at times found it hard to enjoy the roadway, because I'm getting pushed off the road by some particle spewing vintage steam tractor whatever. 

There are a number of automated systems I really love. Aside from the mole ferries, trolleys, balloons, and water trolleys, I am also fond of Cubey's planes, Qu Qi's ferry, the GSLR and ONSR, The Kissling ferry, cars, and telehopper, the Lost Lakes balloon tour (which I was delighted to see still operates!), and likely a few others I've forgotten. I also loved the old Linden SLRR trains, back when they actually worked.

Yet each of those do have a distinct difference to what this particular user is doing. None of the above roam freely. Each has its waypoints and travels to same, and doesn't go beyond them. Each also has at least some form of self limiting: Cubey's planes autodie without a passenger, there's only one of Qu Qi's ferries out on the water, the telehopper is also solitary and slow, etc.

I definitely would not support holy terrors like no entry or whatever on the road. That would be like tossing out the baby avatar with the bath prims. I want to be able to use the darn roads, and that would make them functionally hobbled at best.

I would like to see some sense of what is and isn't allowed for a single Resident to do on SL's ROWs. How much is too much? Is there a limit? Who should even be allowed to set such?

[Yevad Doobie]

I agree.  Sansara has many many places like that due to the age of its roads.  I begun a deep survey of the Sansara routes once to make a case for those routes to be rebuilt but it proved to be a huge task.  My first installment for my ticket covered only 20 sims and contained 39 pictures of road encroachment with potential for disaster!  I have now put that survey on hold until I have finished surveying all of the other routes.:matte-motes-big-grin-squint:

[Marianne McCann]

---

Pussycat Catnap wrote:

There shouldn't be moment like that - with a road crossing through private land.

I've ridden one of the mainland touring pods and passed by one of those - with my pod avoiding it.

Some moles will tell you there's nothing they can do about something like that, but I've seen others make very inventive road shapes - and even seen things that a mole told me there was nothing that could be done about, get later fixed by 'someone'. A small curved segment to the road could fix the problem in that screenshot.

 

---

From the look of that road, I'm betting that is somewhere in mid-Sansara. 

Back when Michael Linden chairs the LDPW office hours, he discussed situations like this. The roads build in the pre LDPW days (especially the 2003-2004 era) often did not concern themselves so much with parcel boundaries. This has led to situations like this, places where road was returned by a land owner, and other "fun" things.

FWIW, the Moles are factually correct. There is nothing they can do about the above. The old ROWs are owned by maintenance, and they can't fix those legacy spaces. That said, Michael Linden could. Best bet is to ticket it, and let him take a look at fixing that issue.

[Yevad Doobie]

I have been in discussion with the 2 main people with automated vehicle projects for a long time and we are looking to maybe get official guidelines up on a wiki page for greater clarity and to try and prevent these types of arguments.  Boundaries have been set by Blondin, though there is no official record of this.  Now Blondin has gone, we are not sure who to contact at LL.  The TOS and Community Guidelines are not specific enough really.  A line needs to be drawn, for sure!

 

The biggest problems I see is the differing view points, miss-information and subjective nature of many of the complaints.  A total ban would mean that the Blake Sea rides would need removing, the Bay City Trolleys too, and we all know there was a lot of support for them to come back.  Unfortunately many of the negative arguments are based on guessing their nature and intentions rather than finding out the truth, which gives little credibility to their cause.  A good example being the hateful blog posts by one resident that claims that AnnMaries are rezzed on a timer, which is entirely incorrect.  AnnMaries have a finite number (with exception to the clone issue, a JIRA entry I keep pointing people to that has received very few votes), AnnMarie only rezzes replacements for deleted vehicles.

 

I would like to see the haters sit down and have a conversation with a partially sighted resident, or a resident with motor control issues.  I know some people with such problems that appreciate them enormously!  Unfortunately, most of the haters are too blinkered to want to see sides of the issue such as this...

[Marianne McCann]

---

Yevad Doobie wrote:

I have been in discussion with the 2 main people with automated vehicle projects for a long time and we are looking to maybe get official guidelines up on a wiki page for greater clarity and to try and prevent these types of arguments.  Boundaries have been set by Blondin, though there is no official record of this.  Now Blondin has gone, we are not sure who to contact at LL.  The TOS and Community Guidelines are not specific enough really.  A line needs to be drawn, for sure!

--

I would like to see the haters sit down and have a conversation with a partially sighted resident, or a resident with motor control issues.  I know some people with such problems that appreciate them enormously!  Unfortunately, most of the haters are too blinkered to want to see sides of the issue such as this...

---

+1 to all the above. I think this *is* a case where some rational discussion would help. I know I'd definitely never be willing to support something that would remove the Blake Sea ferries, let alone the Bay City Trolleys (and I still want to see the return of the Nova Albion one, for that matter!). There are also many great examples of Resident created automated systems that do provide an effective and fun service. Again, I'll point to Cubey's planes, especially the new route through the Southern Passage as but one example.

Heck, the argument here is largely split on how much fun on particular maker's vehicles are versus how much they detract from fun/possible TOS issues with said vehicles. So let's find the line and move on.

So yes, by all means. I feel you on the "who to contact" issue, though. They so need some front facing folks to handle these issues. 

[Polenth Yue]

I don't want to see all use of the roads banned... just for those who do use the roads to consider how heavily they're using them. And that does include being open to talking about it, without accusing people of lying if they find a problem.

Something I'd ask all vehicle runners to consider is that you're not watching the vehicles for most of their journey. You don't see all the problems. It might be the vehicle is doing something it shouldn't, because it hit a situation you didn't expect... but if your first reaction is to say it couldn't possibly be happening, it isn't leaving many options for people living by the road. It encourages people to AR rather than send an IM explaining the problem.

[Marianne McCann]

---

Polenth Yue wrote:

I don't want to see all use of the roads banned... just for those who do use the roads to consider how heavily they're using them. And that does include being open to talking about it, without accusing people of lying if they find a problem.

 

Something I'd ask all vehicle runners to consider is that you're not watching the vehicles for most of their journey. You don't see all the problems. It might be the vehicle is doing something it shouldn't, because it hit a situation you didn't expect... but if your first reaction is to say it couldn't possibly be happening, it isn't leaving many options for people living by the road. It encourages people to AR rather than send an IM explaining the problem.

---

Ya, agreed. 

Really, I think it comes down to a common "fair use" policy. How much is too much? Are there any specific things you can or can't do on the roads? This sort of thing. Making the roads too difficult for a number of users to actually use is not the answer. Nor is allowing a small handful of users to dominate the roads, making it too difficult for the majority to use. I'm sure there has to be some reasonable balance.

[Cerise Sorbet]

---

Marianne McCann wrote:

---

Pussycat Catnap wrote:

There shouldn't be moment like that - with a road crossing through private land.

I've ridden one of the mainland touring pods and passed by one of those - with my pod avoiding it.

Some moles will tell you there's nothing they can do about something like that, but I've seen others make very inventive road shapes - and even seen things that a mole told me there was nothing that could be done about, get later fixed by 'someone'. A small curved segment to the road could fix the problem in that screenshot.

 

---

From the look of that road, I'm betting that is somewhere in mid-Sansara. 

Back when Michael Linden chairs the LDPW office hours, he discussed situations like this. The roads build in the pre LDPW days (especially the 2003-2004 era) often did not concern themselves so much with parcel boundaries. This has led to situations like this, places where road was returned by a land owner, and other "fun" things.

FWIW, the Moles are factually correct. There is nothing they can do about the above. The old ROWs are owned by maintenance, and they can't fix those legacy spaces. That said, Michael Linden could. Best bet is to ticket it, and let him take a look at fixing that issue.

---

Ebisu is not far from the collapsed Fujin bridge, so there is plenty of matching material that could be recycled, maybe bent guard rails or barriers. I am already paying enough in rent, and will not re-enroll in the premium program just for the privilege to report LL's build error.

[Yevad Doobie]

Sigh...well, I created a wiki page for this matter and spent a lot of time and effort being as objective as I could.  I interpreted the TOS and Community Guidlines to the best of my ability.  I then contacted some Lindens and asked for them to review it and add their input or endorse it in some way...but all that happened is they were standoffish as usual:

 

"Hey Yevad, Michael Linden let me know about this, too. As wiki co-admin, I appreciate you trying to make sense based on canonical structure. However, this page should be clearly marked that it — including the tips you've highlighted — are unofficial Resident interpretation of Linden policy to avoid confusing fellow Resis. Since discipline for violating Community Standards is handled case-by-case, best practices are helpful but not strictly enforced — therefore we can'tendorse it. For reference, all official LL policy is in the Official Information and Policies Portal." - Torley

 

So, nothing is gained from the page really.  Now it will only ever look like a subjective page and will serve no purpose other than to add more fuel to the fire and leaving me open to the hate campaigns too.  I only want to bring some peace to the grid regarding this issue and dispell some of the myths, but this looks like it will never happen now.  I am tempted to remove the page all together really, but I will wait and see what AnnMarie and Yavanna say about it.

[Marianne McCann]

If its any small consolation, I've had the same issue crop up on other pages. Sorry you did, and I for one am glad you did the page regardless.

 

[Rabid Cheetah]

I have spots near the end-points of Route 12.  I love the auto-cars:  They add to the scenery, provide a transportation option to those who don't own cars, and bring people to new desitnations they might not have ever thought of visiting before (such as, well, a roadside French chateaux).

 

If for some reason it got to the point where I found this problematic (such as cars pilling up [though I've yet to see it, even though both my places are at the end of the road] and affecting prim count), I suppose judicious editing of the land's object entry and/or object return settings would solve the problem in a jiffy.

 

Much more annoying is trying to sail to Linden waters, only to discover that there's a privately owned water parcel in the way, and they're obsessed with banlines and security orbs.  But that's a whole other story...

[AnnMarie Otoole]

Thanks for your mammoth effort, Yevad.

I suspect the Lindens don't know yet what the future is for automated vehicles. I can understand they would be reluctant to set any precedents. So far only 2 people have made use of this capability but there may come a time when regulations are needed. Those regulations will be difficult to create, difficult to monitor and difficult to enforce. I expect no definitive rules until that time arrives.

Meanwhile the situation is managed within the precepts and interpretations of the TOS. Despite a minority despising the vehicles the overwhelming majority appreciate their contribution and the Lindens are obviously taking a wait-and-see position. Without endorsing the vehicles, various provisions are provided by the Lindens to allow vehicle operation. ARs are adjudicated on a case by case basis with the understanding that although TOS violations occur they are not intentional griefing. To comply with the TOS, I am subject to warnings and suspensions should prompt response to problems not be addressed.

Various reporting systems alert me to problems but many cannot be detected. I am grateful to the dozens of residents who report incidents. I or my alts respond promptly to ALL situations, remove dead vehicles and analyze the scene to determine the cause. The most common cause is lag to which the vehicles contribute a negligible amount. I have reported hundreds of region and road problems to which the Lindens respond with commendable speed.

AnnMarie Otoole