Product Held Hostage for Bad Review?

[JayWaters]

I am a big buyer of one particular product creator. Anyway, I have spent literally 10's of thousand of lindens over the past few months buying products from this creator., it is actually close or over 6 figures in lindens but I did not add it up to be honest...but it is quite a large sum of lindens. 

I recently purchased one of their products and was quite dissapointed with how it worked as it did not work very well. To make a long story short, I posted a not so great review on the product. Almost immediately the product creator IMd me with threats telling me they would disable ALL of my products if I did not remove my review. Well I told him that I was not going to remove my review as it was my honest opinion. This product with the add ons that I purchased was well over 3k lindens. 

Well, the product owner did in fact black list my product and it no longer functions nor any of the add ons for it. To me this is not only blackmail but now has turned into theft. How can a creator just have the ability to turn off items that I PURCHASED and OWN?? Surely this cannot be tolerated. What can I do aside from reporting the owner which I have already? I am now out 13 RL dollars and have a non functioning product for my troubles! Help!

[Teagan Tobias]

I think I know the creator your talking about, and if you had read the ToS when you started with them, you would have know that what is happening to you is put forth very clearly in the Terms of Service. “IF” it is the same one then there is nothing you can do, you agreed to it, and it happened. As to the how, your products talk to a server outside of Second Life, and your products have been “turned off” at that server.

Without naming names no one can be positive, and I could be wrong here, but I doubt it very seriously.

[Perrie Juran]

While it might not get your product "reactivated" you could still Abuse Report the Merchant for Abusive behaviour.

"Anti-Competitive or Abusive Behavior. Examples include, but are not limited to:

 

• rewarding buyers for reviews unless both positive and negative reviews are rewarded."

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/listing_guidelines#abusive-behavior

 

 

[Lexia Moonstone]

First off I have to say I think the way the creator reacted to your review is completely wrong, please IM me inworld and let me know who this is so I can avoid them. Not sure if LL will do any thing, but it's worth a try doing as others have suggested.

One question for you, did you contact the creator first before writing the review to see if they would fix the problem?  Not that doing so would have justified their response.  I can see creators  getting up set when people review a problem with an item with out ever reporting it, but this is way over the top.

As for how they could just turn it off, any item scripted to communicates with a server could easily be turned off remotely.

[JayWaters]

There are no such terms that state a bad review will cause me to blacklist your product rendering it useless. 

Also the marketplace listing has no such wording, there is no sort of disclaimer anywhere that says "if you give my product a bad review I will keep your lindens, disable your product and laugh at you as I STOLE your money"

To me this is AKIN to buying a television from Amazon, then going and saying some things you do not like about it on an Amazon review and having the manufacturer disable your power button, rendering your television useless because you made a bad review on Amazon.

[Amethyst Jetaime]

I know from experience that LL is going to do absolutely nothing.  I am afraid you have lost the use of your product with no recourse.  You could go back and edit your review and put this information in it to warn other people.  Do it in a neutral and factual way so the guy has no grounds for getting LL to pull it.

[Vulpinus]

Please will you pm me the details too? It sounds like the sort of thing I might buy, or rather not buy now.

 

Frankly, I'm a bit sick of seeing this sort of "buyer beware" extreme attitude displayed by some in SL. Whether it's in the TOS or not, it's despicable behaviour purely taking advantage of the fact that buyers have virtually no protection in SL.

 

I have dealt with many terrific sellers here, but some sellers unfortunately don't fit that category.

 

I sell a little too, and would never stoop to some of the behaviour some sellers exhibit, either in their teams or in actuality.

 

 

[Ceka Cianci]

you might not be able to name them here,but you can do it in other 3rd party sl community forums..

[Teagan Tobias]

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JayWaters wrote:

There are no such terms that state a bad review will cause me to blacklist your product rendering it useless. 

 

Also the marketplace listing has no such wording, there is no sort of disclaimer anywhere that says "if you give my product a bad review I will keep your lindens, disable your product and laugh at you as I STOLE your money"

 

To me this is AKIN to buying a television from Amazon, then going and saying some things you do not like about it on an Amazon review and having the manufacturer disable your power button, rendering your television useless because you made a bad review on Amazon.

---

Over the years I have seen it a number of times, and no they don't need to be so specific as saying you can't give us a bad review, all they need to say is, if we don't like something your doing we can pull the plug. If they said they will do it for a bad review then LL may get involved, but as it is there is nothing you can do, they said they would if you annoyed them, and you did, and then they did. It was most likely all spelled out in the ToS so there is nothing you or LL can do.

[Pamela Galli]

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Vulpinus wrote:

 

 

Frankly,

I'm a bit sick of seeing this sort of "buyer beware" extreme attitude displayed by some in SL.

Whether it's in the TOS or not, it's despicable behaviour purely taking advantage of the fact that buyers have virtually no protection in SL.

 

---

Really? You think it is mean to tell people the truth, if the truth is unpleasant?

[Perrie Juran]

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

I know from experience that LL is going to do absolutely nothing.  I am afraid you have lost the use of your product with no recourse.  You could go back and edit your review and put this information in it to warn other people.  Do it in a neutral and factual way so the guy has no grounds for getting LL to pull it.

---

I still say AR the Merchant.  Whether LL acts on the AR is a crap shoot but it is still clear from the policy that actions intended to influence the content of a review are a violation of the Market Place guidlines.

True, LL wont force the Merchant to enable the product but this Merchant needs to be sanctioned if this is how they are responding to negative reviews.  

 

[greek Wingtips]

If the creator had any sence or bussiness idea he would have contacted you and worked out a solution with you, I would Im him and let them know you written a review and try and work out some thing that you both can agree failing that , if they have disabled your other products then I would shame them in any legal contents you can, there are many legal ways of naming and shamming if that the road you wish to take,   but it amazes me that a creator would do that over one bad review.

 

 

[JayWaters]

"If the creator had any sence or bussiness idea he would have contacted you and worked out a solution with you, I would Im him and let them know you written a review and try and work out some thing"

See that is the problem in a nuttshell. He IM'd me using all kinds of foul language and threats. I dont even know this person and have spent at least 6 figures worth of lindens in his store over the past few months and this is our first introduction?

When you have a regular customer in SL these days you have gold, if that is how you treat your gold....well there is no hope for you.

[Rhys Goode]

my inclination would be to go back and revise the review sharply downward.  Call the *sub your nasty word here* out for what they are. Give other people the opportunity to see who they are dealing with.  Reacting that way to bad review is childish and non-productive for the creator, in the long run.  Make them pay sooner by spreading the word.

[Pamela Galli]

I have never been sure if it is even possible to edit a review. Has anyone actually done this?

[Phil Deakins]

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

I know from experience that LL is going to do absolutely nothing.  I am afraid you have lost the use of your product with no recourse.  You could go back and edit your review and put this information in it to warn other people.  Do it in a neutral and factual way so the guy has no grounds for getting LL to pull it.

---

I still say AR the Merchant.  Whether LL acts on the AR is a crap shoot but it is still clear from the policy that actions intended to influence the content of a review are a violation of the Market Place guidlines.

True, LL wont force the Merchant to enable the product but this Merchant needs to be sanctioned if this is how they are responding to negative reviews.   

---

It could correctly be ARed as fraud, imo, because it's fraud to sell something with the implicit understanding that the system would continue to work for the item as long as the seller was in business, and then disable it without a refund is fraud, imo. The seller was aware of the review system when s/he put the item up for sale, and that reviews could be both positive and negative. It wasn't sold with any understanding that a negative review would cause the item to be disabled. I'd AR it as fraud.

[Lexia Moonstone]

Looks like the negative review has been removed, and the product is still listed.

I'm wondering if the OP will now get their items turned back on, or a refund.   If not it will be very disappointing to see LL let a merchant do something like this. 

I would still try an AR, the people at LL reviewing flagging on the marketplace might not be the same people reviewing ARs

[Perrie Juran]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

I know from experience that LL is going to do absolutely nothing.  I am afraid you have lost the use of your product with no recourse.  You could go back and edit your review and put this information in it to warn other people.  Do it in a neutral and factual way so the guy has no grounds for getting LL to pull it.

---

I still say AR the Merchant.  Whether LL acts on the AR is a crap shoot but it is still clear from the policy that actions intended to influence the content of a review are a violation of the Market Place guidlines.

True, LL wont force the Merchant to enable the product but this Merchant needs to be sanctioned if this is how they are responding to negative reviews.   

---

It could correctly be ARed as fraud, imo, because it's fraud to sell something with the implicit understanding that the system would continue to work for the item as long as the seller was in business, and then disable it without a refund is fraud, imo. The seller was aware of the review system when s/he put the item up for sale, and that reviews could be both positive and negative. It wasn't sold with any understanding that a negative review would cause the item to be disabled. I'd AR it as fraud.

---

A double whammy here then.

This is also why I am very cautious about buying anything that has a dependence on the creators "good will."  This is not the first incident I have heard of.

 

[Phil Deakins]

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Lexia Moonstone wrote:

Looks like the negative review has been removed, and the product is still listed.

I'm wondering if the OP will now get their items turned back on, or a refund.   If not it will be very disappointing to see LL let a merchant do something like this. 

I would still try an AR, the people at LL reviewing flagging on the marketplace might not be the same people reviewing ARs

---

I never use the marketplace so I'm not familiar with all the ins and outs of it but, from what I've read over the years, I've understood that a seller can't remove a review, but s/he can unscrupulously take down an item that has attracted bad reviews, and immediately put it up for sale again. That way, the reviews will disappear because it's a new listing that hasn't had any. So...

Does the item have any other reviews and, if so, were they posted before this problem came to light, or afterwards?

[Pamela Galli]

I dont know who this seller is but Tegan says on p 1:

 

I think I know the creator your talking about, and if you had read the ToS when you started with them, you would have know that what is happening to you is put forth very clearly in the Terms of Service. “IF” it is the same one then there is nothing you can do, you agreed to it, and it happened. As to the how, your products talk to a server outside of Second Life, and your products have been “turned off” at that server.

 

If the terms say something like "we will disable your items if we damn well feel like it", then I guess that's that.

[Teagan Tobias]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

I dont know who this seller is but Tegan says on p 1:

 

I think I know the creator your talking about, and if you had read the ToS when you started with them, you would have know that what is happening to you is put forth very clearly in the Terms of Service. “IF” it is the same one then there is nothing you can do, you agreed to it, and it happened. As to the how, your products talk to a server outside of Second Life, and your products have been “turned off” at that server.

 

If the terms say something like "we will disable your items if we damn well feel like it", then I guess that's that.

---

But Jay has not said if there was even a ToS or not. A lot of times they are clearly there but people don't even see them and agree without reading.

LOL, I am having a problem with flash player or something like that right now, I can't find the license to read it to agree to it so I can't update. But I really love how videos don't play automatically now, very sweet.

[Perrie Juran]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

I dont know who this seller is but Tegan says on p 1:

 

I think I know the creator your talking about, and if you had read the ToS when you started with them, you would have know that what is happening to you is put forth very clearly in the Terms of Service. “IF” it is the same one then there is nothing you can do, you agreed to it, and it happened. As to the how, your products talk to a server outside of Second Life, and your products have been “turned off” at that server.

 

If the terms say something like "we will disable your items if we damn well feel like it", then I guess that's that.

---

I wasn't sure about this statement when I first read it, if it referred to LL's TOS or the Creators TOS.

I took it to mean LL's but I should have asked.  It is clear that the LL TOS is "consumer beware, we don't get involved in 'resident to merchant' disputes."

But that does not negate the fact that LL can sanction a Merchant for violating the terms and as I stated it seems pretty obvious actions to influence the content of a review are a violation.  Also, I don't think there is anything that would inhibit LL from saying to a Merchant, if you want reinstated you need to refund everyone you defrauded.  Though I doubt very much that LL would do that.

Now on the other hand, while I don't know how LL would approach this, legally a 'we can turn you off at anytime for any or no reason' in a contract may not be enforceable.  Although LL's TOS reads "Linden Lab may suspend or terminate your Account if you violate this Agreement, along with any or all other Accounts held by you or otherwise related to you, as determined by Linden Lab in its discretion," we know that as an absolute this has failed in Court (Bragg vs LL, Evans vs LL, etc).  Still, it's not something I am sure about in this instance.

But now my curiosity is really aroused. If someone would PM me the item/merchant I'd like to look myself.

 

[Lexia Moonstone]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

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Lexia Moonstone wrote:

Looks like the negative review has been removed, and the product is still listed.

I'm wondering if the OP will now get their items turned back on, or a refund.   If not it will be very disappointing to see LL let a merchant do something like this. 

I would still try an AR, the people at LL reviewing flagging on the marketplace might not be the same people reviewing ARs

---

I never use the marketplace so I'm not familiar with all the ins and outs of it but, from what I've read over the years, I've understood that a seller can't remove a review, but s/he can unscrupulously take down an item that has attracted bad reviews, and immediately put it up for sale again. That way, the reviews will disappear because it's a new listing that hasn't had any. So...

Does the item have any other reviews and, if so, were they posted before this problem came to light, or afterwards?

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Any one can flag a review, to have LL review & remove it from the marketplace if it's against the review guidelines, dosen't even have to be the merchant.

It's got 11 reviews 8 of them on the same day that the OP started this post, but there are all so 2 older reviews so not sure if it was relisted, but looks very suspicious.

The other thing I find disturbing is that this is not some small fly by night shop, it 's a long time seller that's at the top of their genera, with out a lot of competition,.  Makes you wonder if this has happened before?

[Perrie Juran]

_____________________________________________

 

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Lexia Moonstone wrote:

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Any one can flag a review to have LL to review & remove it from the marketplace, dosen't even have to be the merchant.

 

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I need new reading glasses.  I never noticed the "flag review" option.  I did know the "was this review helpful buttons" were there.  What they accomplish I have no idea.

I did get a kick out of the flag option.  It says, "choose one," but then only gives you one choice.

[Medhue Simoni]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

I have never been sure if it is even possible to edit a review. Has anyone actually done this?

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Yes, it is possible. I've had quite a few customers edit them after I've explained something to them or helped them with a problem, in some way. Plus, I always try to say thanks or addressing things in the review after they are posted, and I can edit those too.

 

Not to you, Pam, but to other who think that buyer beware, or the free market, without intervention, is bad for consumers. It is quite the opposite, overall. In a truly free market, like the SL marketplace, it is the consumers that benefit massively because of all the competition. While it might be true that some childish merchants will rip off a few people, they are not without consequence, whether LL gets involved or not. I often compare the market to karma. In a sense, that is all it really is. Those merchants that generate good karma, will attract more customers that want to recieve this good karma. Those merchants that create and spread negative karma, will repell customers. Yes, the justice is not instant, but it is going on whether we see it or not. It's not magic, or some being that enacts justice, just the nature laws of interaction. Any kind of regulation that could be enacted by a government, or such, will being inheritly costly, with little to no effect overall, and could limit the market, causing prices to rise.

 

I would not be against people forming a Better Business Bureau or whatever, or some journalists out there spreading the word about bad practices.