SURVEY to CONTENT CREATORS on LL TOS ISSUE

[Toysoldier Thor]

There was an open survey out for any SL Content Creator to fill out.  I am changing this OP Message for this thread because the Survey has already reached in max respondents of 100 in less than 24 hours after it was opened.  Its still capturing beyond that 100 max but the free version doesnt let me see or report on all the respondents.

THE FOLLOWING LINK IS TO A BLOG THAT REPORTS THE SURVEY RESULTS FOR ALL TO REVIEW

 

http://toytalks.weebly.com/1/post/2013/09/secondlife-content-creators-survey-on-linden-lab-tos-issue.html

[Marcus Hancroft]

Howdy, Toy!

I did the survey earlier this morning.  I hope something gets done about all this ridiculous TOS crap! 

[Czari Zenovka]

Good day to you, Mr. Hancroft.   It is good to see you in the forums.

BTW: I am LOVE, LOVE, LOVING my new PC!!!!!!  I'm still saying, "Oooooo, I can turn the graphics to high..ACK, I didn't know that light looked like that (starting to channel Gadget here...lol)" and "Ooooo, I can slide my draw distance way high and NOT lag...LOVE THIS."

Happy, happy, happy!!!

 

[Marcus Hancroft]

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

Good day to you, Mr. Hancroft.

  It is good to see you in the forums.

BTW: I am LOVE, LOVE, LOVING my new PC!!!!!!  I'm still saying, "Oooooo, I can turn the graphics to high..ACK, I didn't know that light looked like that (starting to channel Gadget here...lol)" and "Ooooo, I can slide my draw distance way high and NOT lag...LOVE THIS."

Happy, happy, happy!!!

 

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Well howdy, Miss Czari!

I'm really really happy that you can see SL in all its glory now!  AND use the outbox too!  A new computer makes everything all better, I know.  I felt the same way when I got this computer new (now several years ago) and I bounced around everyplace too!  

Now, if we can get Linden Lab to fix this TOS mess, we'll be even better!

I've still been making textures and things, but, I just use the local textures settings to see how they look inworld, but, not doing a full texture pack upload.  Imma wait till what I upload STAYS mine.

[Amethyst Jetaime]

Done.  I believe that TOS provision is unenforceable as it does not conform to the five requiremnets of Contract law.  I gave a complete explanation in my reponse to the survey.

[Dartagan Shepherd]

To say the least. There's so much legally wrong here, it'd be funny if it weren't so unethical. Hoping they find out in a spectacular fashion.

@Toy: Also done. Thanks much.

[Chic Aeon]

Lawyers seem to be VERY divided on this topic. Many content creators that have the means and interest have contacted  RL lawyers to get their opinion and many it seems (reported that way anyway) have said that LL does indeed own all our content. That is disturbing for sure. I was in the "can't make it retroactive" camp but I can see how it COULD be interpreted as such. Still, I won't be adding to "their" content as I am no longer building or uploading.

So the bottom line is that we really won't know until it is tested. I certainly hope YOU are the correct one .

[Phoebe Avro]

I have a feeling rod's days are numbered just like the infamous M Linden lol

yet another CEO that don't have a clue about what SL is!

[Toysoldier Thor]

The Survey that was put out to SL Content Creators via the free version of Survey Monkey has reached its 100 respondent limit.  As such, I have compiled the results and observations from this quick survey for you all to analyze.

 

You can see all the results in my blog:

http://toytalks.weebly.com/1/post/2013/09/secondlife-content-creators-survey-on-linden-lab-tos-issue.html

[Czari Zenovka]

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Phoebe Avro wrote:

I have a feeling rod's days are numbered just like the infamous M Linden lol

yet another CEO that don't have a clue about what SL is!

---

From your mouth to God's ear.

(Jewish proverb)

[Paul Hexem]

Sign this contract that gives me permission to shoot you in the face with a shotgun. Once you do, that will make it legal to murder you, right?

...

In other words, a worthless TOS is a worthless TOS. I intend to continue to create as normal, and if I find LL using my content in any manner outside non-profit, I'll sue them blind. No big deal.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Gadget Portal wrote:

Sign this contract that gives me permission to shoot you in the face with a shotgun. Once you do, that will make it legal to murder you, right?

...

In other words, a worthless TOS is a worthless TOS. I intend to continue to create as normal, and if I find LL using my content in any manner outside non-profit, I'll sue them blind. No big deal.

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Thank you.. thats what i have been saying..

Why would a multi-million dollar company steal from their users and lose all of that income when we al bail to make small change selling those items on an indie  game dev site like desura?

[Dartagan Shepherd]

1) They're counting on most not bailing.

2) Our virtual goods, according to the CEO has been worth roughly $3-4 billion in sales to date. There's potentially far more income to the goods than tier and services and cheesy in-world monetization.

3) He already stated in so many words that they're going to continue to offer us "more ways to sell".

4) The agreement speaks, not the verbal or conjecture and it has spoken very clearly that LL is taking everything but exclusivity for any reason they see fit. Obviously there's more to the plan than protecting themselves or the agreement would have been worded very specifically to cover the marketplace and Desura.

5) It's not stealing if you can try to TOS it, pay less in settlements than your profit and carry merrily on. Well, it is stealing but it's profitable and calculated stealing, playing off the complexity of IP law.

6) It has the potential to turn some millions into more millions for LL.

7) You grossly underestimate the dollar value to virtual goods and games and the stakes involved.

8) The issue is only partly that they'll "steal" content. Maybe, maybe not. Content creators need to be very careful with the agreements that claim all rights but exclusivity. This is a far over-reaching agreement that very few artists in real life would ever sign or agree to with a click. It needs cancellation or serious revision to get those clauses out.

That they "probably won't steal" is a non starter. What matters are the details of the agreement. Anything else is naive.

 

 

[Toysoldier Thor]

Since the Survey has already reached its 100 respondent max that I can report on, I have replaced the OP messge to this thread to provide the link to the results of the survey.

Look at the OP message of this thread to find the link.

[Alicia Sautereau]

It`s all kind of funny when you look at it from a non business perspective to speculate on.

If LL is going to sell SL, they need to be allowed to transfer ownership of all content to the new owner - the ToS currently is granted permissions to LL

If they are going to allow other ways of distribution for content to be exported from SL to third parties - they need the rights to do so ontop of the actual item creator so that they can hold the third party liable as LL will be responsible for it.

Now here`s the funny thing of it all: stolen content.
If they are working on a way to sell content to third parties, there is a very big stinking pit to be uncoverd.
As we all know, there are entire sims dedicated to resell stolen content, if the new ToS will hold and those items are offerd for sale to third parties, LL is in deep **bleep** as they just claimed ownership of stolen content hehe

With copy botters, game rippers and the like uploading assets to the server since the starting date of this new ToS, affected merchants that were ripped can now hold LL directly accountable instead of filing a DMCA with LL`s ignorance that follows.

I wonder if their ToS will hold against them as they expect it will hold against us in court.

[Sonyamortal]

Hi all, I am currently doing a my doctoral research in law on how laws particularly IP laws affect individual creativity. I would be grateful if you allow me to contact you individually at a later date for this purpose. The research is sort to address the very issue of IP rights that both the content providers and the LL are fighting for. You inputs will actually help the regulatory or law makers in the future to decide the legal fate of User Generated Contents and content creators likewise. Thanks for your co-operation. Please reach me at anu.law@gmail.com for sharing your interest in this research. If anyone has any idea as to how I can go about seeking the support of other content providers on this matter pls do share. Thanks!

[Drongle McMahon]

"...I am currently doing a my doctoral research..."

If that is the case, your best chance of getting cooperation would probably be to tell us what institution that research is being conducted in, who your supervisors are, what other research they have published and what ethical framework you are operating in. An abstract of your research proposal would also help, together with links to official sites containing these sources of information.

[Toysoldier Thor]

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Sonyamortal wrote:

Hi all, I am currently doing a my doctoral research in law on how laws particularly IP laws affect individual creativity. I would be grateful if you allow me to contact you individually at a later date for this purpose. The research is sort to address the very issue of IP rights that both the content providers and the LL are fighting for. You inputs will actually help the regulatory or law makers in the future to decide the legal fate of User Generated Contents and content creators likewise. Thanks for your co-operation. Please reach me at anu.law@gmail.com for sharing your interest in this research. If anyone has any idea as to how I can go about seeking the support of other content providers on this matter pls do share. Thanks!

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Thanks for the request on my blog and its good you posted your request here in this thread as what you appear to be researching is directly tied to the issues we Content Creators are now having with the platform owner (Linden Lab) that believes they own all rights to our content if uploaded into SL (...even though they say we are still IP Owners).

I would repeat the request that Drongle mentioned ... to get a lot of support for your request from us creators, you might want to explain a lot more where you are from and the purpose of your research and who/where it will be published and if we all will see a copy of this.

I think the Linden Lab / Content Creators troubled relationship is a posterchild for your research.

Just tell us more what you want.

[Dartagan Shepherd]

Participation here will get you multiple answers at once if you but ask a question or three. We'd be glad to have a law student as part of the discussion.

Or give you a synopsis if you haven't grok'ed the main talking points from here and the links provided to other bloggers and companies that are beginning to forbid their content to be used in SL.

If you want a refresher on some past legal thoughts by an attorney during the history of SL you can start with: http://virtuallyblind.com/

And when you get out there in the real world, remember regulatory law is as much a function of lobbying as it is the legal bits.

I'd start with the flaws in current IP law that allow a company to claim rights, including retroactively outside the realm of contract.

[Sonyamortal]

http://www.cerdi.u-psud.fr/theses/fostering-creativity-in-virtual-words-examining-the-role-of-economic-and-moral-incentive-rights-models-for-intellectual-property-rights-management

 

Hello, this is my credintials for further reference. Thanks for your interest in my work. 

[Sonyamortal]

Thanks for your encouragement, I have responsed to Drongled just now. I would be publishing my research, with the university where I study to start with and plan to also write journal articles in law and management journals. Because my school is well known for legal research and is European based, I do believe the European Union will take note of this research in the future as they are at this point struggling to deal with UGC issues in particular. I will share in the coming days all about my work. My work is in intersection of law, management, psychology. I will post my survey once it is approved by my guide. The topic is one of my personal interest, as my brother is in the creative industry as well and I do respect the efforts of creative individuals and believe in true innovation being available to masses as supposed to a few monopolies. 

http://www.theses.fr/s81561 see the link for an short abstrast of my work. (I had to edit the early post which was more revealing as it could make my survey biased and not objectivively undertaken, ideally the survey must from the random sample population who would be asked questions on a objective way without pre-preparing them of the issue that is meant to be discovered through the survey, hope it can be understood and appreciated)

I am sorry my research does not promise to have immediate implications to residents of SL but in the future it will pave way to a legitimate governance of user-creators and impact regulatory bodies and virtual world providers as well, afterall if the users are not happy no one will stick to the virtual worlds anymore. So this research will benifit both SL and SL residence and similar UGC creators elsewhere.

You can look up my resume also posted in the website of my univeristy if interested, I am not a established researcher but a budding one with a hope to impact the communities in a real way.  

[Sonyamortal]

Thanks for your encouragement, I can't believe I bumped into lucky set of residents who actually might be intersted in the stuff I do. Unfortunetly I am preparing my survey at this point and will take a while before I can float it around. Thanks for your co-operation in advance. I may perhaps ask a few questions to some of you before I can float the survey to one and all at SL. Your comments can help me improve my survey questions if things are not comperhensible to a layperson. Legal stuff can be complicated sometimes as we all know. 

I will look at the past posts as well for more info. Thanks for sharing. 

[Drongle McMahon]

"Hello, this is my credintials..."

Thank you. I am sure this will make people here comfortable in contribiting to you investigations. You have probably noticed alreadym if you have perused this forum, that we are presently in the midst of an issue particularly relevant to that area of study. I look forward to seeing your survey.

Bon chance.

[Sonyamortal]

Thanks, hopefully I can come back to this forum with surveys soon. France things move slow, so I hope it doesnt take too long.:matte-motes-grin: However so as to not raise technical issues in my methodology, I may need to down play my actual motives as it will go against the whole concept of an objective research/survey.  I am afraid I have to edit my research idea from this thread, before the survey can be circulated. 

[Czari Zenovka]

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Sonyamortal wrote:

Thanks, hopefully I can come back to this forum with surveys soon. France things move slow, so I hope it doesnt take too long.:matte-motes-grin: However so as to not raise technical issues in my methodology, I may need to down play my actual motives as it will go against the whole concept of an objective research/survey.  I am afraid I have to edit my research idea from this thread, before the survey can be circulated. 

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A pleasure to have you among us.  Trinity Yazimoto lives in France and she has connections.