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Canis Canning

LL claims all rights

23 posts in this topic

Next time before you load up a mesh you may think about this:

SecondLife
Terms of Service
[...]
2. CONTENT LICENSES AND INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS
[...]
2.3 You grant Linden Lab certain licenses to your User Content.
[...] you hereby grant to Linden Lab, the [...] cost-free right and license to [...] sell, re-sell,
sublicense (through multiple levels), [...] make derivative works of, and otherwise exploit
in any manner whatsoever, all or any portion of your User Content (and derivative works thereof),
[...]

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They dont claim all rights. You grant them a license to use and re-use the content. Might not seem a big difference, but it is.

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/me wonders if there is a way to revoke said license lol

 

One would think legally that, closing your account would end the user agreement

 

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And you bring this up specifically for mesh uploads because...no seriously..it (or something like it) has always applied. Why start worrying now:)

All I can think of is people having an outworld commercial quality model that they worry about bringing in here to grab a few L$ with that might in some way complicate things.

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That's pretty much always been the case its just been reworded in the TOS.  LL in practice doesn't do that though except for making promo's for SL.  Even then I've only known them to do it a few times. 

If LL started taking everyone's stuff and started to sell it as they pleased or giving it away there would be a mass exodus of content creators from SL and a lot of others too when nothing was available for sale anymore except through LL, which I am sure they are aware of.  They would be cutting off their nose to spite their face.

Keep in mind the new TOS covers all LL products now, not just Second Life.  What they may do with their kiddy games doesn't concern me.

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First of all all those "clips" are perhaps a bit out of context. It would have been better to put in the whole section (which actually MAY be against the TOS - LOL) and highlight in bold.


Long long LONG ago there was a big deal made by users with similar wording in the TOS. The Labs responded that they need these right in order to run the world -- like giving one item to another when it is purchased, rezzing items from the database etc. (note this WAS long ago so I do not remember the examples they actually used).

AND as was pointed out in several discussions about the contradictory statements in section six about adult content -- this is not JUST the Second Life TOS any longer.


Honestly, I wouldn't worry about it. Without content creators there is no SL. And I am pretty sure The Labs knows that.

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All the best points are taken so I'll just add this:

This is a rather standard verbiage for uploading your work anywhere online.

So think about that anytime you want to sell or show off your work anywhere on the internet. In reality, they are just protecting their rights; even if they had the desire to do so, do you really think they have the resources to steal everyone's work and resell it? That would be a massive and fruitless undertaking.

Just like all conspiracy theories, it just doesn't hold water. If they wanted to scam you, they'd have done it already.

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Copying and processing etc.  things for SecondLife is one thing - I agree they need these rights to operate SecondLife. Selling things to anybody anywhere and using them in any other own products out of your control is another thing. They do not need these rights to operate SecondLife. So why do they claim them - for not using the rights?

I also care what a company like LindenLab will be able to do if SecondLife dies. They now still will have the general commercial rights on all contents for all future times and no reason not to use them. And no, it is not general verbiage on all internet sides where you upload things. Others mostly have no rights to freely sell and use your hands work.

I write this here for meshes, because they are the most valuable things in SL, some of them worth hundreds of US$. They are usable in any other 3D application, be it virtual worlds, games, movies and so on. It partly also concerns textures, but they are often low resolution in SecondLife. Most other things like scripts are not usable outside SecondLife or OpenSim.

So all I said is: Think about this before uploading any contents to SecondLife. You do not do it for SecondLife alone anymore, but give it for free to LindenLab to do with it as they please.  I surely will think twice if I will upload a mesh I worked on for days and weeks to SecondLife loosing totally the control over its commercial use or better put it under creative commons rights excluding commercial use.

Look at all these wonderful things the users created for SecondLife - did they really do it for LindenLab to sell them?

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I'm not prepared to debate the point, suffice it to say, be paranoid if you wish.

Consider, however, that unlike other sites, SL is arbitrating transactions between people using a "fake" currency. As I understand it, this may not just apply to their "kiddy games" since we are litterally giving our content to LL to sell on our behalf. They cannot legally do this without the rights to sell and re-sell our content. So from that context, their business model probably wouldn't work without that legal verbiage.

If those are not rights you wish them to have, so be it. I, on the other hand see that it is not in their interest to try to abuse those rights.

Now, one point I will concede is that it definitely concerns me what might happen if LL were to go bankrupt or close down SL. Based on how it is worded, I don't think they get unlimited rights to content after service is canceled. Just like how when LL is gone, our L$ is gone without refund. When they are gone, we retain all rights to our displaced content.

That, however is an assumption.

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Rahkis Andel wrote:

I'm not prepared to debate the point, suffice it to say, be paranoid if you wish.

Consider, however, that unlike other sites, SL is arbitrating transactions between people using a "fake" currency. As I understand it, this may not just apply to their "kiddy games" since we are litterally giving our content to LL to sell on our behalf. They cannot legally do this without the rights to sell and re-sell our content. So from that context, their business model
probably wouldn't work
without that legal verbiage.

 

If those are not rights you wish them to have, so be it. I, on the other hand see that it is not in their interest to try to abuse those rights.

 

Now, one point I will concede is that it definitely concerns me what might happen if LL were to go bankrupt or close down SL. Based on how it is worded, I don't think they get unlimited rights to content after service is canceled. Just like how when LL is gone, our L$ is gone without refund. When they are gone, we retain all rights to our displaced content.

 

That, however is an assumption.

Linden Lab does not Sell on anyone's behalf.

When I buy your item, I am buying from you.

Linden Lab is just the virtual UPS Delivery Service.

The only question would be, do you 'trust brown' to deliver the goods for you. 

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That explaination doesn't make sense.

We only have the illusion of ownership and their system makes it looks like content is trading hands. As far as LL is concerned, we just have game tokens and a visual representation of what is saved on their servers and our name on it. They still own that digital information and claim the rights explained in the TOS and they unambiguously own every last L$ we have.

So using that logic, when you theoretically buy something from me, we trade game tokens and LL switches some properties to associate the product with you instead of me.

The only thing that makes that transaction mean anything at all is their TOS and whatever digital rights laws apply. That's why I'm saying their TOS probably is necessary for their business.

If I'm missing something here, please explain what it is if you don't mind.

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I think you have a valid point.

On the marketplace, people can buy with real money. So LL sells the merchant's products (or the right to use those items in SL) and gives the merchant tokens. In other words, merchants never sell any items. The fact that those tokens can later be sold for actual currency does not make any difference.

LL does not own the IP rights though. The first paragraph of TOS section 2.3:

"You retain any and all Intellectual Property Rights you already hold under applicable law in Content you upload, publish, and submit to or through the Servers, Websites, and other areas of the Service, subject to the rights, licenses, and other terms of this Agreement, including any underlying rights of other users or Linden Lab in Content that you may use or modify."

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Rahkis Andel wrote:

That explaination doesn't make sense.

 

We only have the illusion of ownership and their system makes it looks like content is trading hands. As far as LL is concerned, we just have game tokens and a visual representation of what is saved on their servers and our name on it. They still
own
that digital information and claim the rights explained in the TOS and they unambiguously
own
every last L$ we
have
.

 

So using that logic, when you theoretically buy something from me, we trade
game tokens
and LL switches some properties to associate the product with you instead of me.

The only thing that makes that transaction mean anything at all is their TOS and whatever digital rights laws apply. That's why I'm saying their TOS probably
is
necessary for their business.

If I'm missing something here, please explain what it is if you don't mind.

They would not need to 'own' the content to facilitate the transfer.

"They cannot legally do this without the rights to sell and re-sell our content." is not true.

They are acting as the Transfer agents.  The rights for you to sell content in SL are granted in other sections of the TOS.

1.4 Linden Lab is a service provider and is not responsible or liable for the Content, conduct, or services of users or third parties.

You understand that Linden Lab is a service provider that enables its users to interact online and display and communicate information and Content chosen by those users. Linden Lab does not control or endorse the Content of communications between users or users' interactions with each other or the Service.

2.4 You grant certain Content licenses to other users by submitting your Content to publicly accessible areas of the Service.

Your interactions with the Service may include use of the Second Life permissions system and the copy, modify, and transfer settings for indicating how other users may use, reproduce, distribute, prepare derivative works of, display, or perform your Content In-World subject to these Terms of Service. Any agreement you make with other users relating to use or access to your Content must be consistent with these Terms of Service, and no such agreement can abrogate, nullify, void or modify these Terms of Service.  (my underlining)

You make widget A.  You say to me in exchange for $100L I can use your Widget.  It is a user to user agreement and transaction.  If I buy your Widget, I am buying it FROM you, not FROM Linden Lab.

 

It's the same as with the Lindex.  People think they are buying Linden Dollars from Linden Lab.  They are not.  Linden Lab is only acting as the agent.  I pay my USD for the Linden's you are selling.  It is still a user to user transaction.

There is one caveat.  LL does reserve the right through Supply Linden to control (add to) the supply of Linden Dollars to keep the Lindex stable.

Despite what some people say, Linden Lab has NEVER said that Linden Dollars don't have Value.  You just can't redeem them for Cash FROM Linden Lab.

Now, as far as the 'we own everything' clauses in the TOS, I will agree they are extreme and questionable.  I am not saying that I agree with them or like them.  But like everyone who uses SL I've at this point in time the same choice as everyone else.  Accept them or reject them.  If I reject them I won't be able to use SL. 

A Court may rule that they are not legal.  But until that time, that is my choice. 

Yeah, I don't like them either.

ETA, I agree with you on the 'illusion of ownership.'  It is actually a 'license to use.'  But that agreement is still between you and I.

 

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Okay, thanks for explaining. Granted, it still doesn't make sense to me, but I guess that's why I'd never cut it as a lawyer.

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Rahkis Andel wrote:

Okay, thanks for explaining. Granted, it still doesn't make sense to me, but I guess that's why I'd never cut it as a lawyer.

I am not a lawyer, but as a businessman I had to learn a little about contract law.

Sometimes I would rather I didn't know anything about it.

I'd prefer to be able to shake hands on a deal and that was the end of it.

 

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Canis Canning wrote:

Next time before you load up a mesh you may think about this:

SecondLife

Terms of Service

[...]

2. CONTENT LICENSES AND INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS

[...]

2.3 You grant Linden Lab certain licenses to your User Content.

[...] you hereby grant to Linden Lab, the [...] cost-free right and license to [...] sell, re-sell,

sublicense (through multiple levels), [...] make derivative works of, and otherwise exploit

in any manner whatsoever, all or any portion of your User Content (and derivative works thereof),

[...]

I can see why LL put this section into the TOS.  It covers their butts legally if they accidentally give away or use content made by a content creator without their knowledge or having to credit them.

Here's an example.  Some years ago LL requested some new avatars be created by residents to add to the LL Library folders.  LL then chose from a number of new avatars that were submitted to go into the Library inventory folders.

Unknowingly one of the avatars submitted was submitted with a skin that was not designed by the person who put the avatar together.  The person who had submitted the avatar had the permission from the skin designer to upload the skin textures as long as the copyright and logo of the skin designer was left on the textures.  The person who submitted the avatar either took off the copyright and logo or had received them that way from someone else who had.

LL ended up using the avatar in question.  Very quickly it came to light that original submitter of the avatar had not followed the license agreement of the original skin designer and questions were raised as to if LL had the right to continue using the avatar or compensate or credit the original skin designer.

Well this section of the TOS gives them clear right to use the skin as they see fit in any manor.  Did LL intentionally hurt the skin's designer? No.  But the TOS did cover their butts legally.  It was sad that LL made no attempt to even credit the skin designer.

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That LindenLab now has the right to sell all user contents also means that you are not allowed to upload any freebie texture who's commercial usage is forbidden or which are not allowed to be sold as is outside an own creation. Up to now you could have said: "I only use them in my own creations in SecondLife and will not sell them", but now you have to say "I will give them to LindenLab to sell them - that is not allowed". You have to have the full commercial rights for anything you upload now!

I wonder what will happen to contents that has been uploaded before SecondLife became a place where contents is not limited to SecondLife. Can they really say "O, we use that texture uploaded before we took the right to sell, but we did not know that selling this is forbidden".

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I don't have a problem with this, as it is a standard license for many sites. I am a control freak over my intellectual property, so read the fine print on things carefully.

They must have that license in order to broadcast your content over the internet, in films, advertising, etc.


However, that license should end immediately when you remove the intellectual property from your Inventory folder, or cancel your account in Second Life.

Some music sites have the same license to use my original music in this way as well (in order to distribute it to listeners, etc), but their license is revoked as soon as I remove the file from their servers (if their policy says so of course :D)

Can anyone clarify if this is is the case with Second Life?

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entity0x wrote:

I don't have a problem with this, as it is a standard license for many sites. I am a control freak over my intellectual property, so read the fine print on things carefully.

They must have that license in order to broadcast your content over the internet, in films, advertising, etc.

 

Really?  Really now?

I checked several major distribution sites and actually they go to great lengths to point out they are only acting as agents and never claim 'ownership.'  Try I Tunes, Reverbnation, E Books on Amazon.

They DO NOT NEED these additional terms for SL to work.

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It is not exactly the same as in other platforms, as here other users may buy your creations or buy your textures etc to use in their own creations and their creations would break if you removed your ones. But this is anyway just a opinion and SecondLife will not remove anything they own of value.


But there is a better thread now discussing this topping at

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Merchants/Updated-LL-TOS-Claims-FULL-RIGHTS-to-ALL-CONTENT/m-p/2201477/highlight/true#M39836


It discusses for example the topics of LindenLab having bought Desuro and there 3D game contents shall be sold like is described in this article

http://modemworld.wordpress.com/2013/09/28/tos-changes-the-desura-connection-and-a-personal-perspective/


And this "paranoid" thing gets more known by many people like artists who leave SecodnLife together with more and more creators and it will dry out. SecondLife is dieing as it startet before this TOS change.

https://plus.google.com/u/0/101371184407256956306/posts/iGGJ3gnAhhc


I hope I helped to put some focus on these new rights


good bye SecondLife

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A new group has formed in SL called the United Content Creators of SL  It is an open group and is a viable forum for collectively working together to let LL know our feelings on the TOS and to effect change. If you can't find the group in search, contact Kylie Sabra, or Toysoldier Thor for an invite. 

 

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No I wouldn't expect this to bother folks who just rip their content off the web.  For other mesh creators like myself...sign the new tos?

HELL NO.

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