Christin73 Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 I have been hanging out at this one urban combat sim lately. Lately they have had gangbangers lately doing anything they feel like it even if its against sim rules. This includes griefing and harrassment of the reguler users. Yet, the sim owner refuses to do anything. My question is, can the sim own be held liable for alowing the sims users to violate TOS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela Galli Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Jetaime Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 I suggest you and the other regular's register your displeasure with your feet and find another sim, and notecard the sim owner and tell them you won't be supporting it any more and explain why. Gangbangers aren't known to donate much if at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orca Flotta Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 All you can do is AR the offenders individually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dilbert Dilweg Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 How do you know the sim owner refuses to do anything? Nothing you say indicates how you reported it and or if reported properly. A Sim owner wont just ban somone just because you say so. There has to be proof and or him or her needs to withness it. If they never do anything about it could be reasons of their own Keep in mind, If you are griefed. then it is up to you to file the proper abuse report to LL. Telling a sim owner about the situation can only allow him to ban them on the region. and for the most part, bans are worthless because they are only name bans. If you want these users to stop the abuse, then file abuse reports to Second Life and file them properly. A Sim owner can not file an abuse report for you. Even still getting greifers to stop is a never ending issue. If you feed a troll with what they want. They will be back for more food And no the sim owner can not be held responsible for users actions. If so then LL is on the hotseat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GothGirl Demonia Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 Christin73 wrote: I have been hanging out at this one urban combat sim lately. Lately they have had gangbangers lately doing anything they feel like it even if its against sim rules. This includes griefing and harrassment of the reguler users. Yet, the sim owner refuses to do anything. My question is, can the sim own be held liable for alowing the sims users to violate TOS? Depends if the Sim owner allows the use of huds, or griefing in their region its allowed can be considered Role-Play. However if the owner of the sim is using the sim as a public meet-up for Copybotters, griefers, scripted object/server hosting to do remote attacks on other users not in their sim/gridwide spam, and such types of attacks, then yes Second Life will close it down likely although this could occur under the nose of any sim-owner. And if you don't believe it look at what happend at the sims. 1. Sanvich 2.Digital Worlds 3. WoodBury 4. Reddit Why were all these sims closed more than once that is what I am curious to know if Linden Lab didn't take no action at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qie Niangao Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 My question is, can the sim own be held liable for alowing the sims users to violate TOS? Not if the violations are merely harassment and the like. In other cases, however, I'd not be so quick to dismiss sim owner responsibility. If, for example, the sim hosts certain kinds of content--whether that content is owned by the sim owner or not--there's really nothing in the ToS to protect the sim owner from legal liability. That is to say, there's no common carrier safe harbor provision for sim owners. Such infractions are way beyond mere ToS violations. The penalties wouldn't be limited to losing an account, and it wouldn't be LL who'd be doing the enforcing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrie Juran Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 Christin73 wrote: I have been hanging out at this one urban combat sim lately. Lately they have had gangbangers lately doing anything they feel like it even if its against sim rules. This includes griefing and harrassment of the reguler users. Yet, the sim owner refuses to do anything. My question is, can the sim own be held liable for alowing the sims users to violate TOS? First as others have said, the SIM owner can do or not do as he pleases on and with his SIM as long as she/he complies with the TOS. Also, there is nothing that forces him/her to enforce her/his own SIM rules. Nor can she/he be held accountable for the actions of others. Their SIM, their privelege. You stated that these gangbangers were harrassing and griefing the regular users but didn't state 'what' they were doing. Being annoying does not necesarily equal being a violation of the TOS. Unless they are doing things that specifically violate the TOS, for instance sexual harrasment, all you can do is vote with your legs and go somewhere else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WADE1 Jya Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 Hah. If I was liable for this type of thing I would close down my sim immediately. Sorry you are having difficulty and please be assured we don't like griefers either... but this is the other side of the picture... Since sims are typically run by sole proprietership (one person)... or very small teams... there is no way for us to micromanage these kind of issues at all times 24/7/365. Quite often, there is also no way for us to seperate genuine complaints from false accusations... unless we happened to be there online in close proximity as eyewitness to the events... even then it often gets tricky. Most owners, we will try our best (within the limited resources we have access to) to provide a quality environment but please understand there is going to be gaps where you're kinda on your own! To compound our difficulty of being virtually blind unless we literally followed your avatar around, even then we still have limited scope and do not have appropriate tools to observe the numerous other more severe cyber security issues that may take place on 'our lands'. There simply is not adequate security tools provided to sim owners. The only party with the proper tools to examine & enforce any of these things is Linden Lab (the corporation managing Second Life). Liability rests entirely with them, thank god :catvery-happy: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwenting Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 Sim owners can indeed be held liable for visitors violating the TOS. A friend of mine got ARd and ended up with an official warning that she'd be banned and her land confiscated if she did not stop child avatars having sexual encounters on her adult sims, where she already had rules in place against just that but they were sneaking in when the moderators were not looking. Investigation by LL found that the ARs came from the same IP address as the logins of the child avatars in the provided screenshots (yay for serverlogs) and the whole thing was dropped, but it can happen, as another example shows. Another person I know actually got suspended when someone rezzed an A rated object (I believe some pr0n photos) on the roof of her Linden Home, made screenshots, and filed an AR against her. Again, she was unblocked when the nature of the events was discovered, but it took several weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christin73 Posted June 25, 2013 Author Share Posted June 25, 2013 This link might explain more about the sim and whats going on. I din't write this blog post. Some else did. But, it shares similer expieriences about the sim as I found. http://squeak-yognaught.tumblr.com/post/53763276559/traveling-second-life-exploring-outside-the-mainland Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrie Juran Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 jwenting wrote: Sim owners can indeed be held liable for visitors violating the TOS. A friend of mine got ARd and ended up with an official warning that she'd be banned and her land confiscated if she did not stop child avatars having sexual encounters on her adult sims, where she already had rules in place against just that but they were sneaking in when the moderators were not looking. Investigation by LL found that the ARs came from the same IP address as the logins of the child avatars in the provided screenshots (yay for serverlogs) and the whole thing was dropped, but it can happen, as another example shows. Another person I know actually got suspended when someone rezzed an A rated object (I believe some pr0n photos) on the roof of her Linden Home, made screenshots, and filed an AR against her. Again, she was unblocked when the nature of the events was discovered, but it took several weeks. "Investigation by LL found that the ARs came from the same IP address as the logins of the child avatars in the provided screenshots (yay for serverlogs) and the whole thing was dropped, but it can happen, as another example shows." Knowing Linden Lab's penchant for not revealing the details of the outcome of their investigations, this smells a little fishy to me. Just saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Levenque Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 Christin73 wrote: This link might explain more about the sim and whats going on. I din't write this blog post. Some else did. But, it shares similer expieriences about the sim as I found. http://squeak-yognaught.tumblr.com/post/53763276559/traveling-second-life-exploring-outside-the-mainland I read most of that blog post—I bailed at the point where a bunch gathered in the warehouse to discuss all the cruddy stuff they'd seen. I just don't get it. Am I missing something? Is there some requirement or circumstance that would mean the person doing the complaining needed to stay there? Really, I mean it. What's the point? "Oh look. This place is full of creeps and even the owner doesn't seem to care about it." Ctrl-Shift-H ETA post quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrie Juran Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 Dillon Levenque wrote: Christin73 wrote: This link might explain more about the sim and whats going on. I din't write this blog post. Some else did. But, it shares similer expieriences about the sim as I found. http://squeak-yognaught.tumblr.com/post/53763276559/traveling-second-life-exploring-outside-the-mainland I read most of that blog post—I bailed at the point where a bunch gathered in the warehouse to discuss all the cruddy stuff they'd seen. I just don't get it. Am I missing something? Is there some requirement or circumstance that would mean the person doing the complaining needed to stay there? Really, I mean it. What's the point? "Oh look. This place is full of creeps and even the owner doesn't seem to care about it." Ctrl-Shift-H ETA post quote One of the great realities of SL that some or even many people have a hard time accepting as long as it does not violate the TOS and CS it is the SIM owners absolute right to decide what is allowed to happen on their SIMs. SL is just like RL in this regard. If I allow you to come into my RL home and you find the way I live disgusting or abhorrent the door swings both ways. While I personally don't condone such behavior, you are absolutely right, Ctrl+Shift+H is your friend. eta, I read that blog post also Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melita Magic Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 jwenting wrote: Sim owners can indeed be held liable for visitors violating the TOS. A friend of mine got ARd and ended up with an official warning that she'd be banned and her land confiscated if she did not stop child avatars having sexual encounters on her adult sims Another person I know actually got suspended when someone rezzed an A rated object (I believe some pr0n photos) on the roof of her Linden Home, made screenshots, and filed an AR against her. I instinctively thought things like this could happen. Sometimes people argued if asked not to have 'encounters' on my land (or my neighbor's land when someone had a house next door) or not to rez adult items (including the box itself, as often, the picture on front was porn), or use adult gestures or sounds (those things that cause the audio track of a porn film to play, for instance.) I'd be lectured at times for being a prude and whatever. But my land wasn't A land. At that time especially, minors could've conceivably been there (real ones, not child avs.) Wasn't taking any chances. Same with people plying their 'trade' of the oldest sort, trawling for cilents & so on. I had people rez sex beds in teh rooms at times. Thet's where the one person in a room policy came from. Lol Had to preemptively ban a child av who was continually showing up and/or leaving, in adult lingerie, and whose profile was absolutely filled with sex and rape groups. Sorry, no. Guests should understand not only is the person's tier money at stake, if their sim loses its reputation or becomes an unpleasant place for all others to be, but, the person can even face serious real life implications for some of this stuff, if they are perceived to be allowing it to go on. (These are just a few examples, of what can happen. Of course the people doing it don't know or care other than their own whims of the moment.) If sim owners seem strict at times, it's a necessity (if they have much sense.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwenting Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 Perrie Juran wrote: jwenting wrote: Sim owners can indeed be held liable for visitors violating the TOS. A friend of mine got ARd and ended up with an official warning that she'd be banned and her land confiscated if she did not stop child avatars having sexual encounters on her adult sims, where she already had rules in place against just that but they were sneaking in when the moderators were not looking. Investigation by LL found that the ARs came from the same IP address as the logins of the child avatars in the provided screenshots (yay for serverlogs) and the whole thing was dropped, but it can happen, as another example shows. Another person I know actually got suspended when someone rezzed an A rated object (I believe some pr0n photos) on the roof of her Linden Home, made screenshots, and filed an AR against her. Again, she was unblocked when the nature of the events was discovered, but it took several weeks. "Investigation by LL found that the ARs came from the same IP address as the logins of the child avatars in the provided screenshots (yay for serverlogs) and the whole thing was dropped, but it can happen, as another example shows." Knowing Linden Lab's penchant for not revealing the details of the outcome of their investigations, this smells a little fishy to me. Just saying. Depends on the persons involved no doubt. If you get a personal call from them they're more likely to be open to you no doubt. They won't have said WHO was responsible, but what happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrie Juran Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 jwenting wrote: Perrie Juran wrote: jwenting wrote: Sim owners can indeed be held liable for visitors violating the TOS. A friend of mine got ARd and ended up with an official warning that she'd be banned and her land confiscated if she did not stop child avatars having sexual encounters on her adult sims, where she already had rules in place against just that but they were sneaking in when the moderators were not looking. Investigation by LL found that the ARs came from the same IP address as the logins of the child avatars in the provided screenshots (yay for serverlogs) and the whole thing was dropped, but it can happen, as another example shows. Another person I know actually got suspended when someone rezzed an A rated object (I believe some pr0n photos) on the roof of her Linden Home, made screenshots, and filed an AR against her. Again, she was unblocked when the nature of the events was discovered, but it took several weeks. "Investigation by LL found that the ARs came from the same IP address as the logins of the child avatars in the provided screenshots (yay for serverlogs) and the whole thing was dropped, but it can happen, as another example shows." Knowing Linden Lab's penchant for not revealing the details of the outcome of their investigations, this smells a little fishy to me. Just saying. Depends on the persons involved no doubt. If you get a personal call from them they're more likely to be open to you no doubt. They won't have said WHO was responsible, but what happened. I am going to guess that you trust the person who told you this. Having read a lot about these situations, talking with the people I do know, etc, I tend to subscribe to the "there is more to the story than what they have said" theory when I read about these things. I won't say that it didn't happen because I don't know. But I think my skepticism is understandable. I do know that there are some big money players in SL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christin73 Posted June 26, 2013 Author Share Posted June 26, 2013 I have never been one to like alot of rules in RP. But, there are the TOS issues. Face it griefing is highly against LLs TOS agreement. I certainly wont be going back there and know quite a few others from that sim who are migrating over to a better run urban rp sim. Kinda makes me wonder what the owners RL is like as well as the griefing gangsters. But yes staying away is best and thats what I plan on doing not to mention tell everyone I know about the place. I have been told that it continues to go down hill more and more every day. I suspect that sim will not be around a year from now or less. It's sad that sim owners let things get that bad where griefers do as they please and dispite having rules, some people play unfair in combat. Oh well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippie Bowman Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 And now a musical interlude. Peace! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qie Niangao Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 Oh. Combat system HUD. That explains everything. Tempest, meet teapot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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