Confused about the "SAFE PLACE" sign.

[EmilyJane OHare]

I recently started RP'ing as a child, so am always in search of places marked as "SAFE" (you know, the yellow and black heart sign). I'm confused as to whether this sign is officially recognized by Linden Lab or is just a general convention. If it isn't officially recognized, I suppose that answers my grumbling below and renders the sign itself useless as an indicator of a "SAFE" place, in which case read no more. I was somewhat surprised and disgusted to find a store on moderate land with two "SAFE" signs prominently displayed at the entrance, only to find sexual parts, sex equipment and fetish stuff prominently displayed inside. Now, I know the "SAFE" sign refers to abusive behavior and harassment, but does it not also apply to content on display? If it doesn't, should it? At the very least, this is misrepresentation of the establishment and MAY (I don't know) be in conflict with the spirit, if not the letter of the Linden TOS.

[Theresa Tennyson]

1) The symbol isn't officially recognized by Linden Lab.

2) When I was a REAL innocent child I read the lyrics printed on the jacket of my brother's copy of Frank Zappa's "Over-Nite Sensation" (look up 'Dinah-Moe Humm' sometime) and my young fragile mind wasn't warped because I had no idea of what the nasty lyrics MEANT until years later.

3) Chah. (My avatar, who's a teenager, asked me to throw that one in.)

[EmilyJane OHare]

Did your mother also show you pictures of penises and vaginas?

[Theresa Tennyson]

---

EmilyJane OHare wrote:

Did your mother also show you pictures of penises and vaginas?

---

No, I found them my ownself.

[Trixie Wyx]

Those signs are really promises that the land owner will try to block people who show up to harrass people in kid avatars. This can range from simple namecalling, lewd pickups, and sometimes attempts to entrap people into looking like they're involved in sexual ageplay. It's not really a promise that shops in the area would be appropriate for real life kids to visit.

 

[Sean Heying]

The safe sign is not recognised by the lab, it is a very old kid initiative (SL4B) that most kids ignore or never knew of.

 

 

[Amethyst Jetaime]

Very few people know what those signs were originally intended for and they are not official signs.  The store owner probably thought using the signs to mark his store as 'safe' meant that you were safe from being 'killed or injured' in a combat type roleplay.

Moderate land is not intended for RL minors.  This is what they say in the knowledge base about Moderate rating and stores.  The bolding is mine

"Residents in these spaces should therefore expect to see a variety of themes and content. Stores that sell a range of content that includes some "sexy" clothing or objects can generally reside in Moderate rather than Adult regions. Dance clubs that feature "burlesque" acts can also generally reside in Moderate regions as long as they don't promote sexual conduct, for instance through pose balls (whether in "backrooms" or more visible spaces). However if any of these businesses uses adult-oriented search tags, the region may be categorized as Adult and blocked from appearing in non-Adult search."

Adult oriented search tags would probably be explicit terms that would be bleeped out in this forum,such as four letter words and slang terms for sexual parts or directly referring to sex acts.   They could very well advertise with moderate words and give people a good idea of what they sell.

If you were on a moderate sim you are not an actual child but an adult who chooses to roleplay as a child.  That is your right however it is only roleplay.  You can't impose your roleplay on other people or expect child appropriate standards outside of specific child roleplay areas or G sims.  So if this type of thing offends you, I would suggest you should change your settings to G only and stay on G sims.

[Syo Emerald]

---

EmilyJane OHare wrote:

Did your mother also show you pictures of penises and vaginas?

---

You aren't really comparing the situation of a child finding his/her older brothers CD with LYRICS they don't understand because of the lack of knowledge with the situation that a parent forces its child to see RL pictures of genitals?!

Sometimes I'm really out of words for whats going on in peoples mind....

 

I hope you don't have kids.

[EmilyJane OHare]

Thanks for the replies guys, very helpful. I might have come across as though I was complaining about the content of the store. I wasn't. I was curious to know if the "SAFE" sign is official - which you have answered - and why a store would have it up if the content is patently unsafe, which has also been answered.

It's a pity that we don't have an officially recognized symbol or sign that can only be used by establishments that have shown a knowledge of the TOS for child avatars, in the same way that you need to take a short test before you can upload mesh, so that when we are playing as kids we can be reasonably sure that we are not being enticed or trapped into situations that we have no intention of being involved with or wrongly accused of breaking the TOS regarding child avatars on SL. (Maybe a no-mod no-transfer copyrighted sign issued by some resident group involved in the safety of those who play child avatars on SL). If we had one that was only issued - or perhaps licensed and renewed periodically - after a short test.

I'm only thinking of protection for both child avatars and other residents.

I take the point that the store owner may have misunderstood what the "safe" sign means, too - even though the note card it delivers is quite explicit about its purpose (that they meant you won't be shot or orbited there). Nobody wants to spoil anyone's fun, so I suppose it's a simple case of caveat emptor.

[Freya Mokusei]

---

EmilyJane OHare wrote:

I'm only thinking of protection for both child avatars

and

other residents.

---

No protection/safety features are provided by SL for exactly this purpose: it would be disingenuous to offer protection that does not, and cannot reliably exist within SL. The users are mostly on their own (aside from instances requiring an Abuse Report), and  no-one - LL or sim owner - can protect anyone else from content that they don't want to see in 'real time'. Even with infinite money and supervision, SL could not be made 'safe', this is the result of user-uploaded content, free-to-play access and all of the things that also help make SL great.

It will always be up to the individual user to make sure that they are keeping themselves safe. SL doesn't provide these features, and it's unrealistic to imagine they'll ever be considered.

[EmilyJane OHare]

"You aren't really comparing the situation of a child finding his/her older brothers CD with LYRICS they don't understand because of the lack of knowledge with the situation that a parent forces its child to see RL pictures of genitals?!"

Of course not, read the context of what I said. I was referring to Adult material in a place clearly displaying the "safe" sign - which although not official, is recognized by many as indicating that their child avatar will be safe from sexual content there. It was the replier who appeared to equate Adult content with the words of a CD, not me. I was bringing it back to what I was posting about.

Why would I post here about what I saw as disgusting if I thought that it was of such little significance as the words of a CD printed on a T-shirt - words that a kid would hardly understand anyway? Incomprehensible words are different from explicit pictures - whether in the context of SL or in the context of RL. In many countries (and I believe in the US too) it is illegal to perform even simulated sex with a minor (even a simulated minor). When we play kids on SL, we want to behave like kids and be treated like kids. When we see a sign that implicitly says "kids welcome", such as the "safe" sign, we do not expect to be subject to explicit images - whether simulated or real. I took the reply as a flip comment and replied accordingly.

I should, perhaps point out that this particular store was on mainland Moderate land, just down the road from a child avatar store, so anyone visiting the child avatar store and exploring the surrounding area could be forgiven for thinking the sign was sincerely meant.

Many of us became child avatars to afford ourselves a modicum of protection under the TOS against sexual advances and material being foisted upon us. That was a major factor in me, who had played an adult for years, changing to a child avi, I was fed up with sexual advances and inappropriate "invites". This kind of inappropriate signage, whether mistaken or deliberate on the part of the store owner needs to be flagged up so that we can avoid such places. As I said, it isn't a case of wanting everyone to change to suit me, its a case of giving me honest information so that I can avoid adult material and not misleading me into entering an establishment that, in real life, I would not allow my children to enter. I have no control over what T-shirt someone wears, but I do have control over which establishment my young children, and I when playing a young child, enter. I do not expect the equivalent to offering a child ice cream to get them into a sex shop.

I agree, sometimes I, too am really out of words for what's going on in people's minds...

[Theresa Tennyson]

The "Safe Place" signs are only available from Marianne McCann who is very active in SL and takes appropriate behavior with/around child avatars very seriously. Contact her and I'm sure she'll look into things.

If the store is actually selling content that would fall under the "Adult" categories of the Code of Conduct they can't do that on moderate land anyway, "safe" sign or no sign, and they can be reported to LL for that. Not knowing what the store is offering I don't know whether the merchandise would fall under that prohibition or not.

I should point out that real children have penises or vulvas and see at least one every day - if they didn't they'd gradually swell up and explode like hot yellow water balloons.

[Paprika Savira]

---

EmilyJane OHare wrote:

 

I'm only thinking of protection for both child avatars

and

other residents.

---

 

 

Protection against what, exactly? An adult pretending to be a child not having to see adult things? You're roleplaying as a child in an adult virtual world. The responsibilty is on you, not the rest of us to cater to your ageplay.

[Marianne McCann]

They are not officially sanctioned bythe lab, but were part of an initiative put together by me and a couple other kids back in 2006 to find locations that would be kid welcoming. 

[Sean Heying]

---

Theresa Tennyson wrote:

...I should point out that real children have penises or vulvas and see at least one every day - if they didn't they'd gradually swell up and explode like hot yellow water balloons.

---

I am putting that on my profile.

 

In a like vane I also mention that almost every single real life child has an adult sex bed near their bedrooms and is highly likely to have actually been on that sex bed (in a g-rated situation we all hope of course) on a regular basis.

 

 

The real life child being near furniture used for sexual purposes IS not the issue, the real life child seeing the furniture used for sexual purposes IS not the issue, the real life child even being in a store that sells furniture for sexual purposes IS not the issue. ( I know I recall as a 7 year old my mother buying a new bed, there was no AR and I was not banned... effectivly murdered in reprisal for seeing, even jumping up and down on a queen sized bed )

The real life child being molested by a catholic preist, or a relative, or a scout master, or a teacher /is/ the problem and that problem is not in second life outside the minds of a few closed minded idiots.

There are no kids here. You are not a kid, I am not a kid. The whole community including Marion are not kids.

Basically OP, safe sign or not, it's natural. If you can't live with it, stop being a child/parent/busybody and play a furry to experience beastiality or a Gorean to experience slavery and mysogony instead. Much more wholesome and acceptable communities compared to an SL child being in the same region as a pose ball. >.>

 

Yeh, this whole "omg, think of the children, sex beds in the zone" rubbish annoys me no end.

[Sylvia Tamalyn]

If you clicked on the Safe Place sign for an explanation as the hovertext says to do, you would have received a notecard that says this:

"Letting your inner child run free on on Second Life can be a lot of fun. But just like that mythical place called the real world, there are people who will want to ruin your fun, or will try to force you to do things you don't want to.

Places with the "Safe" sign are designated as place where you can be a youngster, tiny, babyfur -- or whatever -- and feel safe. If you find yourself being harassed by a person at a location displaying this sign, just tell the location's owner: they will take action, including banning the offender from the property as well as filing an abuse report.

Stay safe and have fun!

For additional information on this sign, please contact Marianne McCann. Thank you to Sweetheart Baskerville and Winter Ventura for additional assistance."

[Sephina Frostbite]

---

Sean Heying wrote:

---

Theresa Tennyson wrote:

..I should point out that real children have penises or vulvas and see at least one every day - if they didn't they'd gradually swell up and explode like hot yellow water balloons.

---

I am putting that on my profile.

 

In a like vane I also mention that almost every single real life child has an adult sex bed near their bedrooms and is highly likely to have actually been on that sex bed (in a g-rated situation we all hope of course) on a regular basis.

 

 

The real life child being near furniture used for sexual purposes IS not the issue, t

he real life child seeing the furniture used for sexual purposes IS not the issue,

the real life child even being in a store that sells furniture for sexual purposes IS not the issue. ( I know I recall as a 7 year old my mother buying a new bed, there was no AR and I was not banned... Effectively murdered in reprisal for seeing, even jumping up and down on a queen sized bed )

The real life child being molested by a catholic priest, or a relative, or a scout master, or a teacher

/is/

the problem and that problem is not in second life outside the minds of a few closed minded idiots.

There are no kids here. You are not a kid, I am not a kid. The whole community including Marion are not kids.

Basically OP, safe sign or not, it's natural. If you can't live with it, stop being a child/parent/busybody and play a furry to experience bestiality or a Gorean to experience slavery and misogyny instead. Much more wholesome and acceptable communities compared to an SL child being in the same region as a pose ball. >.>

 

Yeah, this whole "OMG, think of the children, sex beds in the zone" rubbish annoys me no end.

---

It most cvertainly IS an issue, its against TOS for a reason. Where I agree on most of what you said you are far off on a lot. Yes most of us are adults in this game (theoretically) however that wasn't her point. She asked a simple question to which you so harshly replied. I do agree to each there own but come on now. She just was asking a simple question. She wasn't hurting anyone. Just like you she also is entitled to her opinion. 

[ImaTest1488314069]

---

EmilyJane OHare wrote:

 

Many of us became child avatars to afford ourselves a modicum of protection under the TOS

against

sexual advances and material being foisted upon us

. That was a major factor in me, who had played an adult for years, changing to a child avi, I was fed up with sexual advances and inappropriate "invites". This kind of inappropriate signage, whether mistaken or deliberate on the part of the store owner needs to be flagged up so that we can avoid such places. As I said, it isn't a case of wanting everyone to change to suit me, its a case of giving me honest information so that I can avoid adult material and not misleading me into entering an establishment that, in real life, I would not allow my children to enter. I have no control over what T-shirt someone wears, but I

do

have control over which establishment my young children, and I when playing a young child, enter. I do not expect the equivalent to offering a child ice cream to get them into a sex shop.

I agree, sometimes I, too am really out of words for what's going on in people's minds...

---

Bolded mine..

Oh bull, no one forces you to see or do anything in sl. Regardless of the age you are rping as, you always remain in full control of your sl. Don't like seeing nudity? Don't go where it's welcome. Don't like advances? Mute, block, ignore. Want to hang around kid friendly and "safe"(the definition being highly subjective apparently) stick to G rated sims. Not moderate, not adult. Yes there are "safe" places in the moderate areas too, but they are likely, as you found out, co-mingled with places that might not be G rated. You can't fault others for your inability to avoid that which you dislike. You say it's not a matter of the world catering to you, but that's exactly how your posts come off.

Most kid avs actually seem to understand this concept. This is, specifically, why many areas are created in a G rating. However, there will always be a risk that something not G rated may enter that area. It can be dealt with, if it needs to be, or ignored-which really is what a lot of others do. AR when necessary, block, mute, ignore. Plenty of tools available to help us avoid things we don't like.

By saying others ought to fit their sl to your desires, because you choose to rp as a child, you are involving others in your rp. That's not something many accept as reasonable. Other rp areas don't ask the rest of the grid to cater to their whims. This is part of the reason why some people think poorly of child avs in general. Because some seem to believe the world ought to bend over, when they demand. I'm not negating your rp, I understand exactly why some choose it. I think everyone ought to be able to rp however they want in sl. That said, when we choose to rp, we have to accept that not everyone thinks like we do.

There are a TON of G rated places that kid avs can go and have fun, with minimal(though always still some) risk of running into content or people they'd rather avoid. No one taunted you with ice cream or enticed you with some promise of complete safety, just by placing out a sign. Even in places that are G rated, there is always a risk.

What exactly was in the store specifically that made you, as a child, wander in? If it was merely the sign being placed outside, you've only your own curiosity to blame and can't fault the landowner. If, however, you encountered it because of an ad or promise or something that indicates it is specifically a G rated only store, you might have a complaint. Being that now you've said it's on moderate land, you haven't a leg to stand on. The fact that someone chose to put a children's store on moderate land up the way has no relevance here. It doesn't guarantee or even suggest, the other nearby stores are also meant for children. If someone does assume that, it's entirely on them.

The easiest answer, in this case, is the best. Either don't go to sims outside of G rated(and accept that even they, have slight risk), or accept that you may occasionally run across something you don't like, like the rest of us. I wander around the grid a lot. I have seen a lot of things that disturb me. Everything from specific rp, to horribly built designs, the fugliest fashions i've ever seen, extremely graphic areas, and more. I'm the one that wandered in them, I accept that, and if I don't like it I walk away. Quite simple, really.

[EmilyJane OHare]

"    I'm only thinking of protection for both child avatars and other residents.

 

 

Protection against what, exactly? An adult pretending to be a child not having to see adult things? You're roleplaying as a child in an adult virtual world. The responsibilty is on you, not the rest of us to cater to your ageplay."

Against being hoodwinked into having their avatar in a places where they could be falsely accused of or AR'd for inappropriate activity, that's what. Adult "parents" on SL as well as their SL children could be hoodwinked into thinking that they could have a family day out and visit stores with the "SAFE" sign, only to be AR'd for being in a place where inappropriate material/activities are present. That's what. That, though, is not my primary point here. As some have gathered, I am NOT complaining about the material inside the store. I AM questioning the use of the "SAFE" sign, which is meant to indicate a place where people can go and feel that it is unlikely to come in contact with Adult material or avatars that are using it.

"If you can't live with it, stop being a child/parent/busybody and play a furry to experience beastiality or a Gorean to experience slavery and mysogony instead. Much more wholesome and acceptable communities compared to an SL child being in the same region as a pose ball. >.>

 

Yeh, this whole "omg, think of the children, sex beds in the zone" rubbish annoys me no end."

Yeah, and this "your opinion and concerns are invalid because I don't agree with them" rubbish annoys me no end. I ask a simple question and get the third degree.

It was the sign and the note card inside it that I was asking about, whether it was officially sanctioned and whether people thought that it had been used in an inappropriate way on this occasion. A simple "no it wasn't" followed by an explanation why would suffice. Some have been very helpful in explaining the fact that it isn't official but was set up as a way that places who want child avatars on their property can assure users that they will be safe there and that if they are abused whilst there the owner will endeavour to take action. That's all that was necessary, rather than strawman argumentum ad hominem attacks against the inquirer. If you want to live in your own bubble, where no-one asks questions or put forward opinion that you disagree with, that's fine with me. I would prefer to stay out of such a bubble, though, so don't draw me into it by trying to attribute words or sentiment to me that I have not expressed; or taking individual words or sentances out of content to make your point, thankyouverymuch.

"Oh bull, no one forces you to see or do anything in sl. Regardless of the age you are rping as, you always remain in full control of your sl. Don't like seeing nudity? Don't go where it's welcome. Don't like advances? Mute, block, ignore. Want to hang around kid friendly and "safe"(the definition being highly subjective apparently) stick to G rated sims. Not moderate, not adult. Yes there are "safe" places in the moderate areas too, but they are likely, as you found out, co-mingled with places that might not be G rated. You can't fault others for your inability to avoid that which you dislike. You say it's not a matter of the world catering to you, but that's exactly how your posts come off."

Then you have either not read my posts or have read them with a bias, a bias that you have put on them, not me. That's called a strawman argument, where you place your own interpretation on what someone else has said, claiming that it is what they really meant. You have just made my point; "Want to hang around kid friendly and "safe"(the definition being highly subjective apparently) stick to G rated sims." That, in case you missed it, was my purpose - to seek out "safe" places and what better way to do that than look for a "SAFE" sign? And don't give me that bull about it being "Moderate" land. A RL city street could be called the equivalent to "Moderate" land but, at least here where I live, any Adult shop, theatre or club has to declare what it is - so that ususpecting people don't wander in - and have such content out of sight to the general public; in other words, out of sight from the street. They certainly wouldn't have, or be allowed by law to have, a "child friendly" sign at the door.

Quoting from my initial post: "I was somewhat surprised and disgusted to find a store on moderate land with two "SAFE" signs prominently displayed at the entrance, only to find sexual parts, sex equipment and fetish stuff prominently displayed inside. Now, I know the "SAFE" sign refers to abusive behavior and harassment, but does it not also apply to content on display? If it doesn't, should it? At the very least, this is misrepresentation of the establishment and MAY (I don't know) be in conflict with the spirit, if not the letter of the Linden TOS."

If you notice, although I say that I was disgusted, I did NOT say that I was disgusted at the content of the store per se, I said I thought that it was "misrepresentation of the establishment". In words of as few sillables as possible; the place has a "safe" sign outside and inside it has displays and equipment that most people would say are inappropriate for children.

The content is fine if they didn't have the sign up, I would and did (as soon as I saw what kind of shop it was) leave the place immediately and will not visit again with a child avatar. Most likely, had it not had the sign up I would have probably gone right past it, thinking it looked like nothing special. Having the "safe" sign up led me to think that there may be toys or children's items in there - AND THERE WERE, right next to the door, along with a lucky chair giving wearable teddy bears and freebies including children's bunny slippers. It wasn'y until I got further into the shop that it became aparrent that it was mainly geared toward the adult SL avatar community.

Some have said that "safe place or not", we should exercise caution when on SL. That is true, but is it appropriate to have a "safe" sign on places where they are quite obviously trying to attract adult avatars? Should such places be attempting to attract child avatars to such places, which is implicit in the display of a sign recognised as indicating a "child friendly" place?

As has also been pointed out, the "safe sign" is not an official institution of Linden Lab, but is a genuine attempt to make it easier for people, not just child avatars, to find places where adult activity is not going to be prominent. It's a laudible aim, one which I completely agree with and wouldn't like to see abused to the point where it becomes insignificant. I'm not blaming anyone and accept what a previous reply said, that the owner MAY have misinterpreted what is meant by the "safe" sign. I'm certainly not blaming the people who thought up the idea or distributes the signs because content in a store can change, or stores can change their initial policies and direction.

"There are a TON of G rated places that kid avs can go and have fun, with minimal(though always still some) risk of running into content or people they'd rather avoid. No one taunted you with ice cream or enticed you with some promise of complete safety, just by placing out a sign. Even in places that are G rated, there is always a risk."

Once again, another strawman argument. I did not say that anyone "taunted me with icecream", I said that I do not expect the equivalent to taunting with icecream. The "icecream" comment by me was, if you read the post, in the context of offering "child friendly" when it wasn't. If you choose to interpret my words in that way, that's up to you.

"What exactly was in the store specifically that made you, as a child, wander in? If it was merely the sign being placed outside, you've only your own curiosity to blame and can't fault the landowner. If, however, you encountered it because of an ad or promise or something that indicates it is specifically a G rated only store, you might have a complaint. Being that now you've said it's on moderate land, you haven't a leg to stand on. The fact that someone chose to put a children's store on moderate land up the way has no relevance here. It doesn't guarantee or even suggest, the other nearby stores are also meant for children. If someone does assume that, it's entirely on them."

Agreed to an extent but to answer your question, I have already explained why I entered the store - because I'm always on the lookout for "safe" places. As I mentioned earlier, at the entrance it also had a "lucky chair" and other freebies that were clearly aimed at young SL avatars.

"The easiest answer, in this case, is the best. Either don't go to sims outside of G rated(and accept that even they, have slight risk), or accept that you may occasionally run across something you don't like, like the rest of us. I wander around the grid a lot. I have seen a lot of things that disturb me. Everything from specific rp, to horribly built designs, the fugliest fashions i've ever seen, extremely graphic areas, and more. I'm the one that wandered in them, I accept that, and if I don't like it I walk away. Quite simple, really."

Me too, I've been exploring SL for years as an adult avi and accept that there is a risk of bumping into all kinds of activity that I'm not interested in or don't like, and I simply walk or teleport away. But you are still insisting that I'm complaining about the content, when I quite clearly said that I am NOT complaining about the content. I am asking if it is appropriate to display a "safe" sign at a place that has Adult content. I agree that one person's "safe" place is another person's horror but that's still not the point. Adult content is Adult content - period. You can argue about what you think I mean as long as you want but I have made clear what I mean.

Now let me tell you what I see here;

I came on asking a couple of questions, explaining my reasons for asking them. I initially got a few good replies answering my questions well and succinctly. So... as far as I was concerned... end of story. Questions asked, questions answered, everyone is happy. I made a "it's a pity we don't..." suggestion about having an officially recognised, user organised sign that would only be given to people who had shown that they understood the TOS regarding child avis.

Then I seem to have got a tirade of accusations and personal attacks on me, in some cases people actually turned what I had said backwards and implied that I meant the opposite of what I actually said. Maybe this isn't a helpful place to ask questions, maybe it's the WRONG place to ask, so can anyone tell me WHERE is the right place to ask questions about SL? Maybe some place where people are not so defensive and quick to tear someone apart simply for asking questions? I'm sorry if asking questions and making suggestions is out of order here, I'll remember that in future.

If it's commonplace for people to take up ultra-defensive posturing about a few simple questions and a suggestion, that's fine, knock yourselves out, enjoy your third life!

[Melita Magic]

I think I still have a 'safe' sign on the beach. When I had busier land I had them there too. 

As I understood it, it's a sort of anti bullying thing.

All avatars have always been welcome on any of my land open to the public, my only stipluation is 'cover  your bits' obey SL TOS and be nice or at least civil to others. In the case of one sim I had other rules, from necessity.

The safe signs were meant to make clear that any sort of -ism or harassment wasn't tolerated on my land. But originally they were meant to denote child-av friendly sims. 

As someone else pointed out, if you would have clicked the sign, you should have gotten a note card explaining the sign's purpose.

I can't speak for what was in the specific land owner's mind who apparently had a safe sign next to sex toys.