Stop whining about the ads please

[Phil Deakins]

---

16 wrote:

I was just chatting with Grandpa Linden. some people say he is a madeup person. but is true. like almost

anyways he said was his cunning plan. like he get brought out of the Home for Old Age Retired Lindens to rescue the whole world. he said is his the cunning plan. that nobody is buying islands anymore and paying tiers. so he going to put teach them. them like us. am going to spam them to death. he said

and they will go nuuuuu!!! and go rushing back and buy some islands and pay tiers again like they suppose to

I say that I don't think anyone gunna get sucked in by that cunning plan. and he say wrooonnngg!!! bc last month we not lost any sims. we actual get like 31 more than we had the month before

I went ooowaaahhh! and he went thats right !!! can double that ooowahhh!!! and put a tail on it and call it a ferret

I say wut !!! and he say that as well. I say what as well??? and he say don't be cute. you know what I mean. and I say no I don't. and he say if I not shut up he gunna mute me. and I say go on  then. and he did

so i came on here to whine about it. like the muting part. is not fair that. bc he is batty (: 

---

He was definitely unfair to you. You batty people should stick together and not mute each other.

[Freya Mokusei]

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

Nobody stated that LL can do whatever they like. That can, however, put all the ads they want on the website. Users have statutory rights concerning that.

---

As I said above, "Sure LL can put ads on their pages, and users can react to these ads, based on their opinions." You seem to have an issue with the second half of this statement, for reasons I can't possibly guess.

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

Wrong. Users have no rights in this matter - except the right to go elsewhere, of course. We also have the right to stop seeing the ads, but we have no rights at all as to whether a website owner puts ads on his/her/its website.

---

I was responding to Orca's silly post, and the general assertion that no-one external to the company has the right to complain about a businesses choices (Yeah, that's literally what she said). Please keep track.

---

You're yet to say why it's no-one's business, other than because you think it's no-one's business.

I don't see this issue being any different to complaining about changes made to SLM/Web Profiles. (One could certainly argue that complaining about any of these things will lead to the same result.)

I can therefore assume the issue with 'whining about ads' is simply one you perceive, rather than one that exists.

Install a Whineblocker?

[Ceka Cianci]

once those adds adjust to what we like i'm sure there will be more sl related stuff on them..

 

i'm already seeing more all the time rather than all the other stuff that was on there..

so really if sl merchants start showing on them more..that's a good thing i think..

[Qie Niangao]

Some of the complaints may be silly, but I don't see how a Lab business decision is somehow above comment just because it's their business decision, nor just because it affects their corporate web presence rather than the virtual world service for which we pay (or don't). The old Jive forums software fit those criteria, too, and certainly warranted comment.

Specifically about these ads, personally, they don't interfere with my life and if they did I could rid myself of them.

They do, however, pose a problem for Linden Lab's public image.

First, websites that use such third-party ads look like somebody's personal project, rather than a managed corporate communication medium. Evidently the Lab thinks the (paltry) revenue they get from these ads is more valuable than a polished corporate image. That's fine; the old Enterprise marketing plan is long dead and was doomed from the start.

When they add the blinking marquee text and the "under construction" road sign next to the WebRing of Virtual Reality then we'll know their brand reputation guy isn't merely out to lunch.

[Phil Deakins]

---

Qie Niangao wrote:

Some of the complaints may be silly, but I don't see how a Lab business decision is somehow above comment just because it's

their

business decision, nor just because it affects their corporate web presence rather than the virtual world service for which we pay (or don't). The old Jive forums software fit those criteria, too, and certainly warranted comment.

They do, however, pose a problem for Linden Lab's public image.

First, websites that use such third-party ads look like somebody's personal project, rather than a managed corporate communication medium. Evidently the Lab thinks the (paltry) revenue they get from these ads is more valuable than a polished corporate image. That's fine; the old Enterprise marketing plan is long dead and was doomed from the start.

---

Comments are one thing, but we've had thread after thread of whining and complaining, and that's different.

Such website may look like someone's personal project - to you - but that's not a consensus view across the web. It's perfectly normal to have affiliate ads on brand websites as well as on the type of site you described.

 

[Teagan Tobias]

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

---

Teagan Tobias wrote:

Another thought about the ads, before I blocked the ads I found it interesting that when on the MP I looked for a corset for my avi, an ad came up for RL corsets. I thought for a second and looked for shoes, an ad for shoes came up, then I looked at gowns, and ad for formal ware came up, very interesting, google is looking at what your are looking at and keeping track of that and giving you ads for your interests. Now think a little harder on that one, this is SL not RL, well now google and the ads are making SL pertinent to RL. Now when you explore something on SL that you would never explore in RL, well you are now exploring it in RL, like it or not. Is that a problem, thats up to you.

---

You've described how contextual ads are actually very good, but you've mistaken the website for SL - it is not. It is RL. Second Life (inworld) is SL - the website is in RL. None of it is a problem to anyone.

---

Number one, unless I have missed something, everything on the MP is for SL. None of it will be delivered to my front door.

Number two, all of SL is on the real world web, even in world is on the RL web. Its all real looking at it like that.

Number three, I am so happy that all of SL now has someone that can speak for them, that has bothered me for some time that I need to speak up to be heard. But now I know that you speak for everyone. (None of this is a problem to anyone.)

Number four, no #3 is not serious, you just left yourself to wide open for it.

[Freya Mokusei]

---

Qie Niangao wrote:

They do, however, pose a problem for Linden Lab's public image.

---

This! A thousand times this. Thank you Qie.

I would say the fact that LL feels the need to implement a third-party, real-life-focused ad-service in order to make money from its userbase is unfortunate, and discredits the work of SL creators. Some people will surely feel that they are 'tacky', others will make other assumptions that I can't think of.

Have I done research? No. But do I think it is a discussion worth having here, on the forums? Yes.

[Phil Deakins]

---

Freya Mokusei wrote:

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

Nobody stated that LL can do whatever they like. That can, however, put all the ads they want on the website. Users have

no

 statutory rights concerning that.

---

As I said above, "Sure LL 

can

 put ads on their pages, and users 

can

 react to these ads, based on their opinions." You seem to have an issue with the second half of this statement, for reasons I can't possibly guess.

There was a error in my post that you quoted from. Unfortunately the error made the sentence mean the opposite to what was intended. I've corrected my post now. The correction can be seen in brown in the quote in this post.

 

You're yet to say why it's no-one's business, other than because you think it's no-one's business.

I don't see this issue being any different to complaining about changes made to SLM/Web Profiles. (One could certainly argue that complaining about any of these things will lead to the same result.)

I can therefore assume the issue with 'whining about ads' is simply one you perceive, rather than one that exists.

---

Nobody asked me to say why I think it's nobody's business, but since you bring it up...

It's nobody's business, other than LL, simply because what LL does with their site is entirely up to them, and nobody else. Users of the site don't get a say, a vote, or an opinion in making decisions about it. Users of the site don't have any vested interest at all in the site. Apart from those things, it's self-evident that what a website owner does with the site is nobody's business but his/hers/its.

The difference is that some people may not want their profiles on the web. People's SL profiles being on the web is about them, whereas LL putting ads on the site isn't about anybody. It's quite a difference.

Whining about the ads is all over this forum. It's not a matter of my perception.

[Phil Deakins]

---

Teagan Tobias wrote:

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

---

Teagan Tobias wrote:

Another thought about the ads, before I blocked the ads I found it interesting that when on the MP I looked for a corset for my avi, an ad came up for RL corsets. I thought for a second and looked for shoes, an ad for shoes came up, then I looked at gowns, and ad for formal ware came up, very interesting, google is looking at what your are looking at and keeping track of that and giving you ads for your interests. Now think a little harder on that one, this is SL not RL, well now google and the ads are making SL pertinent to RL. Now when you explore something on SL that you would never explore in RL, well you are now exploring it in RL, like it or not. Is that a problem, thats up to you.

---

You've described how contextual ads are actually very good, but you've mistaken the website for SL - it is not. It is RL. Second Life (inworld) is SL - the website is in RL. None of it is a problem to anyone.

---

Number one, unless I have missed something, everything on the MP is for SL. None of it will be delivered to my front door.

Yes, it is all for SL but it's in RL (see your own comment immediately below this one).

Number two, all of SL is on the real world web, even in world is on the RL web. Its all real looking at it like that.

SL (i.e. inworld) is not on the web. It's on the internet. But you do make a good as to why RL ads are delivered when looking at SL stuff.

Number three, I am so happy that all of SL now has someone that can speak for them, that has bothered me for some time that I need to speak up to be heard. But now I know that you speak for everyone. (None of this is a problem to anyone.)

You'll be very disappointed if you see me as that.

Number four, no #3 is not serious, you just left yourself to wide open for it.

I'll add, just for the interest, that you'd be even more disappointed if you ever think of me as speaking for LL. I won't lift a finger to help that company. If fact, I do just the opposite.

---

 

[Freya Mokusei]

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

Nobody asked me to say why I think it's nobody's business, but since you bring it up...

It's nobody's business, other than LL, simply because what LL does with their site is entirely up to them, and nobody else. Users of the site don't get a say, a vote, or an opinion in making decisions about it.

Users of the site don't have any vested interest at all in the site

. Apart from those things, it's self-evident that what a website owner does with the site is nobody's business but his/hers/its.

The difference is that some people may not want their profiles on the web. People's SL profiles being on the web is about them, whereas LL putting ads on the site isn't about anybody. It's quite a difference.

Whining about the ads is all over this forum. It's not a matter of my perception.

---

I asked you why on Page 1 of this thread. You continue to state that simply because a service can do something, that no user can complain when it occurs? I find this a pretty nonsensical position, especially for someone who spends at least as much time here as I do.

I would heavily disagree that users here have no 'vested interest' in how SL is seen on the web. I think there is evidence to the contrary almost everywhere here, but primarily in the Merchants forum. People have many issues with how SL presents their work on SLM, where these ads also show.

It seems you're intent drawing lines in the sand. Unfortunately I don't have all day, so how about I reduce this for you: Stating dislike of changes made to the service, including its presentation - by LL - is acceptable on these forums, Y/N?

[Coby Foden]

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

 

... contextual ads are actually very good ...

---

Umm... maybe not always.  :smileyindifferent:

If I'm planning to buy in sunglasses in SL, or a fancy sailing boat in SL, I go and search the Marketplace.  It does not bother me at all if I start getting ads for those virtual items.  It could be a good thing actually aiding my searching.

But it is very useless if I start getting ads about RL sunglasses.  I'm not interested of those.  I don't need them, I'm not interested in them in the least bit.  Ads for fancy RL sailing boats?  Ufff... totally useless, I cannot even afford to buy such luxury.  So all the ads for real world things - based on what I have searched in the SL Marketplace - is just useless rubbish to me.

*You were searching for something like this:*

 

*Perhaps you might be interested also:*  :matte-motes-big-grin:

Erm...

[Orca Flotta]

I was responding to Orca's silly post, and the general assertion that no-one external to the company has the right to complain about a businesses choices (Yeah, that's literally what she said). Please keep track.

 

And wrong again!

1) my post wasn't silly just because you didn't understand it

2) it is entirely correct that everybody has the right to complain about anything

3) still it's nobody else's business except LL's

 

That's basically what I said, please keep track. And didn't you state  earlier on that you are refraining from referring to my post any longer?

 

@ all:

Let's be honest now, how often do you even see LL's website? I know I have it somewhere in my bookmarks but wasn't on it since at least a year. And since I have an adblocker anyway I would never ever have noticed that LL placed ads on it. As some said, yes, it's very poor form to do so. It reeks of deperation and begging. But still LL is not my business, I'm in no way inclined to help them out and if and when they go belly up.

Somebody brought the MP and SL merchants into the discussion. Interesting. They are business ppl and should do everything they think is good for their business. If they complain about the ads on the MP it's their business to deal with LL. Not mine, not yours. I may not like it, but then again I don't see it neither.

 

 

@ 16:

Yes, sure, Grandpa Linden is a silly old fart and knows not just everything but he knows everything better. And that's even kinda correct since he indeed knows better than all the youngling Lindens. Maybe he should come out of retirement and clean up the house for good.

[Janelle Darkstone]

I don't see any ads and I don't much care.

But when someone comes on and tells other people to stop complaining if they feel the need to, I might take exception to that... even if it is getting a bit out of hand they still have the right to speak their minds.

Go play with your bots, Phil.

[Freya Mokusei]

Referring != responding.

Feel free to reframe what you said, perhaps things were lost in the textual medium (I read your analogy as bonkers, filed you under T for Trollin').

My understanding of the phrase "This is not any of your business" is that no-one can offer critique, typically because they aren't in a position to understand the mechanism, or because it does not effect them. I disagree with this, as ads do affect the way the secondlife.com domain is seen, and SL content creators (and others) have a financial stake in SL's reputation. I would've thought it was obvious that only LL owns SL, and would not have argued this point if it was presented.

[Phil Deakins]

---

Freya Mokusei wrote:

t seems you're intent drawing lines in the sand. Unfortunately I don't have all day, so how about I reduce this for you:

Stating dislike of changes made to the service, including its presentation - by LL - is acceptable on these forums, Y/N?

---

Yes. But whining about it is self-centred. It's allowed but it's very self-centred because it's all about ME ME ME. E.g. I don't like it so it's wrong, or I don't want to be advertised to so it's wrong, or I pay LL and I don't want the ads so it's wrong. ME ME ME.

Genuine comments such as "It shows SL in a bad light" (which some people have said in various ways), and "the ads make the pages jump in my browser" (which one person said) are genuine comments/discussions and are not self-centred. The perpetual whining is self-centred and, whist being self-centred is allowed here, the self-centredness about the ads is getting a bit much due to the number of whining threads about them that aren't genuine comments, but are self-centred objections to the ads.

[Phil Deakins]

Maybe not always, Coby. But such ads aren't negative, even if you're not interested in what they are offering 

I'll rephrase my statement and say that contextual ads are generally good.

[Teagan Tobias]

Giggles, “Me,Me,Me!” is in fact one of my tags in world, a lot of the time And I am the one that said, it makes my pages jump around.

[Phil Deakins]

---

Janelle Darkstone wrote:

I don't see any ads and I don't much care.

But when someone comes on and tells other people to stop complaining if they feel the need to, I might take exception to that... even if it is getting a bit out of hand they still have the right to speak their minds.

Go play with your bots, Phil.

---

Yes, everyone has a right to speak their minds, Janelle. It's a pity that some people's minds are just so self-centred (e.g. I don't want to be advertised to so LL is wrong to have the ads).

And there's no need for me to go and play with my bots. I'm speaking my mind here. Anything wrong with that?

[Lucretia Brandenburg]

My impression of the phrase "This is not any of your business" isn't that no-one can offer critique, but that thread after thread complaining about a business decision that isn't anyone's business but LL's is getting to be a bit much, in the OP's opinion. Not .. don't offer opinions about it but enough already, we all know that plenty find the ads objectionable, how many threads complaining about the same thing one after another are going to be started?

As I stated, I don't think the ads make it look cheap, many big name retailers have ads, social media sites have ads. If the website and marketplace had had these ads all along, I don't think anyone would have blinked an eye at them or complained.  I did notice the same that Teagan had while on the marketlace , about the ads being targeted to searches and providing links to sites to purchase RL goods, which struck me as funny and rather useless.  Oh yes, I want to purchase a diamond tiara for a formal occasion in RL, I wear them so often.

Alot of people seem to be figuring that LL must be desperate for money to have these ads. I don't know that people assume that about other sites that do the same thing, because they're so commonplace, that's pretty much the way it's done nowadays. Maybe LL is just getting with the times so to speak, who knows? Regardless, I think anyone who thinks they cheapen the look of things might be a bit out of touch regarding how prevalent this sort of thing is online. Yes, there are cheesy, tacky sites with ads, but there are also very nicely done sites that doen't look desperate or cheap.

[Phil Deakins]

---

Freya Mokusei wrote:

My understanding of the phrase "This is not any of your business" is that no-one can offer critique, typically because they aren't in a position to understand the mechanism, or because it does not effect them.

---

Forgive me for again replying to a post that you wrote to someone else.

Your understanding is wrong. If something is 'not any of your business', it means that it is nothing to do with you. I'll give you an example. If I choose to change the carpet in my living room from red to blue, it is 'not any of your business'. It is nothing to do with you, even though you (hypothetically) visit my living room quite often. It is entirely my business what colour carpet I have on the floor. Understand now?

LL chose to change their website. It's not your website and it's not my website. It's LL's website. Therefore, what they change on the website is not any of our business, provided that it isn't about your or me. E.g. It would be my business if they put something like "Don't buy from Phil Deakins' store" on the website. Then it would be my business. But the ads are the business of nobody but LL.

[Phil Deakins]

---

Teagan Tobias wrote:

Giggles, “Me,Me,Me!” is in fact one of my tags in world, a lot of the time

And I am the one that said, it makes my pages jump around.

---

hehe. I'd forgotten who it was.

At the time you said it, I replied that the problem is at your end, but I've since modified that a little - not in a post though, so I'll say it here...

The problem really is at your end, in your browser, but it is probably caused by the LL webdesigner(s) for not testing the design well enough in different browsers. It's not an uncommon fault, but it is very bad practise.

 

[Freya Mokusei]

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

Yes. 

 But whining about it is self-centred. It's allowed but it's very self-centred because it's all about ME ME ME.

---

 This is acceptable to me; we could argue forever about what is self-centered and what isn't. Simply saying 'Stop whining', I think, seems to imply there are no 'good' arguments, which is false (I will accept that this isn't the impression you intended). I could diverge further and state that there is no representation within SL; that no-one can be guaranteed to fight for your cause except yourself (making ME ME ME an acceptable strategy), but this would likely spread the thread too wide.

Coby's view (that few people would be in a position to buy in RL, what they search for in SL) is a valid argument for certain. I am interested in whether the customers of the Ad-engine LL has chosen are aware that they're paying money to market themselves towards virtual requirements. Certainly, if I was paying $0.02 (or however much) per time my RL-focussed advert appeared, because it matched the keywords searched for in SLM, I wouldn't be too impressed. I am unsure of the ToU of using these syndicated ads on a website (because I haven't done it since I had a free Angelfire website in 2000), but would assume this is a case for whoever added the advertisements in the first place.

There are a bunch of good objections to the ads, in my view. Only a few can be resolved by ignoring and hiding them; I would hate to see this become a 'dismissive wave' issue.

[Griffin Ceawlin]

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

It's hard to believe the number of threads that are being started to complain about the ads, ...

---

Yeah, it would be nice if they were all contained/combined in one thread, but... nothing new, really. There are a jazillion (thank you, Mayalily) threads about people's avatars being a cloud, another jazillion about everything being pink, and on and on. SSDD.

[Phil Deakins]

I accepted some self-centred threads about the ads, and commented in them, but every day there seems to be a new one, and none of them were written as, 'Don't you think that the ads cheapen the site?' or other such genuine comments. There are all of the nature of, 'I don't want to be advertised to so LL shouldn't do it', and 'I pay LL so they shouldn't send me ads' - that sort of self-centred stuff.

Coby's observations were interesting, of course, but the ads she saw didn't have a negative effect. They only had an amusing effect.

The advertisers don't pay for impressions. They only pay for either click-throughs or sales/signups. So it costs them nothing when their ads are displayed in this site.

 

[Freya Mokusei]

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

Your understanding is wrong. If something is 'not any of your business', it means that it is nothing to do with you.

---

I understand your definition. Orca's seems to be that it is not a business that I own, so I have no reason to be concerned.

What they change on the website continues to be our business, as users of the service.