start asking LL to turn mainland free to play

[Pussycat Catnap]

---

16 wrote:

---

Pussycat Catnap wrote:

---

I'd rather save SL from death than make it 30 second more convenient.

SL will die, if merchants don't return to the land. All that kept the many venues where they stuff they sold got used in business was funding tier from renting them shops.

Sometimes you need to think beynd your own self and look at what's best for the larger community.

What will you do, when such 'me me me' thinking causes all of the clubs, art venues, roleplay sims, hangouts, ballrooms, live music venues, discussion venues, meter sims, racing sims, XXX sims, and every single other form of community sim to vanish... because they can no longer fund tier?

What good will anything one buys on market place be, when all that is left is empty mainland and linden homes.

 

---

i think you being a bit more gloomy than need to be

+

well-run clubs survive. always have. not well-run and they dont. is same SL as RL this

bars in SL do better. same in RL. they get regulars who keep coming back time after time. the clubs that survive in SL may look like a club. but they bars really. if look at the longtime survivor ones. can see this

---

So tell me how any of these, even the "well run ones" fund themselves?

I'm not talking traffic - traffic can be healthy and a place will die if it can't pay tier.

MP helps the traffic, but steals the tier.

Tell me how, without any source of income, they will find a source of income? Name the new magic bullet they will use now that rental fees are drying up.

Some big brands are there now - but why? How long do you think that will last when they get no or marginal sales from it? Promotion? Better done through fashion blogs and the feeds, and MP itself - as those are the venues through which customers come.

They haven't all given up on inworld yet. Many still cling to it irrationally out of a sense of duty for the greater good. But people with that kind of ethics are less common. Just look at the reaction I get to suggesting MP be killed: selfishness dominates. Over time, the holdouts still clinging to malls will die out / give up. As they do, and this is already happening - venues relying on them will close.

So tell me, once they are all gone; how will the places you love to visit pay their bills?

 

[Butch Daddy]

---

Pussycat Catnap wrote:

---

16 wrote:

---

Pussycat Catnap wrote:

---

I'd rather save SL from death than make it 30 second more convenient.

SL will die, if merchants don't return to the land. All that kept the many venues where they stuff they sold got used in business was funding tier from renting them shops.

Sometimes you need to think beynd your own self and look at what's best for the larger community.

What will you do, when such 'me me me' thinking causes all of the clubs, art venues, roleplay sims, hangouts, ballrooms, live music venues, discussion venues, meter sims, racing sims, XXX sims, and every single other form of community sim to vanish... because they can no longer fund tier?

What good will anything one buys on market place be, when all that is left is empty mainland and linden homes.

 

---

i think you being a bit more gloomy than need to be

+

well-run clubs survive. always have. not well-run and they dont. is same SL as RL this

bars in SL do better. same in RL. they get regulars who keep coming back time after time. the clubs that survive in SL may look like a club. but they bars really. if look at the longtime survivor ones. can see this

---

So tell me how any of these, even the "well run ones" fund themselves?

I'm not talking traffic - traffic can be healthy and a place will die if it can't pay tier.

MP helps the traffic, but steals the tier.

Tell me how, without any source of income, they will find a source of income? Name the new magic bullet they will use now that rental fees are drying up.

Some big brands are there now - but why? How long do you think that will last when they get no or marginal sales from it? Promotion? Better done through fashion blogs and the feeds, and MP itself - as those are the venues through which customers come.

They haven't all given up on inworld yet. Many still cling to it irrationally out of a sense of duty for the greater good. But people with that kind of ethics are less common. Just look at the reaction I get to suggesting MP be killed: selfishness dominates. Over time, the holdouts still clinging to malls will die out / give up. As they do, and this is already happening - venues relying on them will close.

So tell me, once they are all gone; how will the places you love to visit pay their bills?

 

---

The MP isn't the problem.  It is the junked up stores in world.

 

I gave up buying in world when it was SLExchange 4+ years ago.

 

Why?

Because shopping in world is a right royale pain in the butt!!!  Searching for an item, doing to the store, waiting 20+ minutes for everything to rez, stuck at a landing point no where near what I was looking for. 

Once everything in my immediate area rezzed, I had to try to hunt for what I was looking for amongst all of the other stuff that the seller had placed out on their area.

With absolutely NO guides or pointers showing the way to the area I wanted, and most of the stuff stuck in vendors on the wall that I had to page through, over  and over and over again.. usually to find that the 1 item I wanted wasn't there, so I have to move to anothere area and wait for everything to rez in that area, and then do through the vendor hunting again and again.

Screw that! 

The MP isn't killing in world sales, the sellers are by having a horrible set up and store and allowing dozens and dozens and dozens of scripts to run in their stores adding to the lag along with 14,000 prims that are trying to rez and a store that is laid out in such a manner that flee market sales look like Saks Fifth Avenue.

If more places were like Luna Bliss, or DE Designs, I would spend more time browsing and shopping in world and spending time in those locations to boost traffic numbers.

Sellers who refuse to adapt and optimize their stores are the ones ruining in world sales, not the MP.

[161488303349]

---

Pussycat Catnap wrote:

    So tell me how any of these, even the "well run ones" fund themselves?

I'm not talking traffic - traffic can be healthy and a place will die if it can't pay tier.

MP helps the traffic, but steals the tier.

---

i did tell you

i say again in a different way

the reward value proposition (the one that makes or breaks a venue) is not about the rentals. has never been about the rentals. successful club/bar owners in SL and successful creators/brands know this

the reward/value proposition is me. the club/bar patron. the consumer. my eyes. my clicks. can ask google about that

this what the creator/brand/shopkeeper pays for when they rent prims. they always have. some know this. some dont. them that dont fail

what does it matter to the club owner whether they renting prims for shop architectures or renting prim/space for weblinks. when they desired outcome is the same. my eyes.my attention. my attention on stuff that leads to me to viewing and buying stuff

 is a different model of pricing as well. i am not renting by prim now. i am renting space for eyes and attention

+

also if look at the clubs/bars run by savvy owners. events are being sponsored by savvy brands

best dressed vampire dance contest. sponsored by Best Dressed Vampire Shop. win and get a prize of vampire stuff. goods now for prizes instead of L$. everyone wins. club and shop dont have to come up with cash. winner happy bc they won and they get some stuff. that they would of bought eventually anyways or something very similar

all the cash the club get off the shop as sponsorship fee can go direct on the tiers. is no cash portion have to be give to the winning patron

the DJ advert the shop while the event is happening. on the stream. same like happens on RL radio. this not a paid ticket gala. is a free concert/event. so you get adverts. is the price you pay for free. dont like adverts dont come. or go to a paid ticket event

gets people in the door. win some stuff does. see the advert boards. like what i see and you got my attention. the bargain between the club/owner and the shopkeeper is now complete

+

bc the advertising takes up less prims than old-style rental shop architectures then they dont rent by prim anymore. they rent by patronage numbers

is benefit in this for club owners and shopkeepers and patrons. less sim resources consumed. less to maintain and upkeep 

+

big brands understand the better value propostion: patrons over prims. so do lots of little brands. they not silly either. they want be where the people are on the sim in direct line of sight. not stuck way over in the back row where nobody can see them

they much rather be flashed up on the big board with all the big brands for  30 seconds once an hour for the same payment

+

the shopkeepers who dont want this are those for who creating is a hobby. and part of that is creating the inworld shop itself. its styling and ambiance. is a creative and for them fulfilling experience all in itself. whether they actual end up selling anything or not. they just like doing it. so they get a land of their own. bc they like owning their own shop

but they still do want people to come and maybe buy some stuff. even if only a little bit. is validation that. someone, maybe only one person ever. actual bought something i made. wooohoo \o/ so how do i get people to come? put myself in front of people. like advertise

clubs/bars are targetted advertising channels. they have a particular clientele who have common traits. so get in front of them if as a creator you cater for those traits

[161488303349]

ps 

i just add directly about traffic

traffic is a measure of patronage. is viewable and confirmable

so are clicks. so are clicks that result in sales

i can measure the value of this to me.both as a club owner and a shopkeeper

+

what the traffic clicks on is immaterial to me as either.

only thing that matters from business pov is that people click. as club owner is my job to get my trafiic to do that. if i dont do that then i will fail. the shopkeepers will leave. and take their rents with them

 

[Tari Landar]

---

Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

Just cuz i am a brat,...

Your son started first grade at 3?

 

---

lol Not a brat. But no, he's advanced in Math and Science.

[Melita Magic]

I agree with what someone said about shopping in world sometimes being a pain. I don't like those huge malls myself, especially the ones that disable flying. 

I think many shopping centers are stuck in the past. I recall in the 'old forums' customers complaining about stores being too big, can't fly there, too slow to rez and a lot of the store owners basically saying 'too bad.' How many will be forced to adapt to customer wishes for plainer stores, quicker rez time, easier in world shopping, and flying everywhere, now that marketplace is their competition?

Or maybe they will stick to their preferences because marketplace does well for their products. Who knows?

But it does show that while ignoring customer wishes can slide for a while, soon as there is good competition or a big change in the market, suddenly boom, the floor falls out from under some of those people. And they usually seem surprised. But, they really shouldn't be. It always pays to listen to customer input. 

We see that even in real life. Some major brands are going under. Some other brands which turned the focus onto customer service are flourishing. Amazon is one place that is excellent at customer service and listening to feedback. Look how a small thing like an active cursor in the search field, or not, helped some search engines grow and others vanish forever. There are some real life websites that are such a painful shopping experience that it's greatly impacted the store's bottom line. Some are on the verge of bankruptcy. 

There's something to be learned for SL from RL.

[Amethyst Jetaime]

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:

---

Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

---

Pussycat Catnap wrote:

As for marketplace, that should have its shopping cart removed. Instead make it a listing with a button to the location of the object inworld. Thus driving merchants back onto the land and helping continue to fund the reasons we "play" SL: for places to visit and socialize or explore.

 

---

I don't want to TP inworld to buy an item then arrive at a shop and have to look all over creation for the item I want, wasting a lot of my time. 

---

I'd rather save SL from death than make it 30 second more convenient.

SL will die, if merchants don't return to the land. All that kept the many venues where they stuff they sold got used in business was funding tier from renting them shops.

Sometimes you need to think beynd your own self and look at what's best for the larger community.

What will you do, when such 'me me me' thinking causes all of the clubs, art venues, roleplay sims, hangouts, ballrooms, live music venues, discussion venues, meter sims, racing sims, XXX sims, and every single other form of community sim to vanish... because they can no longer fund tier?

What good will anything one buys on market place be, when all that is left is empty mainland and linden homes.

 

---

MP is NOT the cause of the present crisis with in world stores.  After all Xstreet was around a long time before LL took it over and it didn't cause in world shopping to collapse.

There are a few things that are causing that.  One is that the RL economy is in the toilet and people are not buying near as much as they used to buy.  Two in world search is completely borked and useless if you are trying to find a specific item.  Even if you are looking for a specific shop half the time it won't come up in search until you try a few times.  Three poorly planned stores that make it difficult to find something immediately.  You have to wander around 10 minutes or more and that is AFTER you wait 10 minutes for all the high rez textures to rezz so you can see. A simple trip to find one blouse to match a skirt takes hours by the time you spend a half hour in each store and visit several stores to compare styles and prices. So it isn't just 30 seconds as you claim.

SL will not collapse if in world stores become few and far in between.  Look at other virtual worlds where all their shopping is done on a web site not in world.  In RL too more and more people are shopping on line rather than in brick and mortar stores.  I do most of my shopping on line now.  That doesn't mean the country is going to collapse.

As far as venues, renting shops to fund them is not the only business model that can be used in SL.  If malls fail, Owners will need to come up with a new model. Merchants will still need to advertise as 16 has pointed out so the emphasis can shift from malls to advertising.  People who want entertainment to survive in SL may have to be more supportive of the venues they like, either voluntarily by donating a reasonable amount to the venue each time they go, or involuntarily if venue owners have to charge a cover charge.  Plus as pointed out many time, venues such as clubs don't make any money for the owner.  So clubs and other venues will still exist that are owned by people that run them because they want to, and are willing to fund them.

As far as what I would do if it all vanished?  While I do enjoy going out once in a while, I am perfectly content staying home and creating content, or entertaining friends, or going to visit friends. 

As far as 'empty mainland" here again that is not because of MP. The problem with the mainland is that it is poorly managed by LL.  There is no zoning or covenants, Horrendous builds can be erected anywhere making it ugly  With the exception of a few areas, it is a slum as far as I am concerned because of the poor management.  The second biggest cause of the mainland problems is the Linden Homes themselves.  They need to be discontinued or time spent in them needs to be limited..

Lastly you have no idea of what I do already to contribute to the community,.  I mentor a lot of new people and builders on on one and I donated or volunteer to work for many good causes. I spend a lot of time each day here answering peoples questions.   Further, I have the skill and ability to create anything I need or want in Sl without spending a dime other than on tiers, which I do pay.  But I don't.  I support other content creators when I can.  Not only do I buy most of the clothes and avatar items I wear, I also will buy from texture artists, sculpt and mesh artists, animators, scripters, and other suppliers if they have what I need.  I probably contribute more to the economy and the community than 90 percent of the people in SL, so excuse me if I don't have time to spend hours shopping inworld.  I assure you SL won't fall apart.

SL is going through a period of change.  Some of the old ways of doing things are no longer working.  Sometimes you need to think out of the box and adapt rather than to cling to old ways that have proved not to be viable. That is what is best for individuals AND the larger community.

[Suki Hirano]

SL is not an MMORPG, people actually sell real estate here. /discussion

[Pussycat Catnap]

More proof of my point:

http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2013/01/japan-chubu-and-japan-kansai-gone-from-second-life.html

- A regular occurance now that Marketplace has kiled off all forms of inworld funding.

 

 

[Drake1 Nightfire]

---

Pussycat Catnap wrote:

More proof of my point:

http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2013/01/japan-chubu-and-japan-kansai-gone-from-second-life.html

- A regular occurance now that Marketplace has kiled off all forms of inworld funding.

 

 

---

So, a few sims that had nothing to do in them but walk around and look at them went under... and that says the MP is killing off land sales?!?!? Perhaps if the creator of those sims sold items at a reasonable price she would have sold more and been able to afford her sims. Just because someone doesn't sell enough to be able to afford 3 sims worth of landscape does not mean its the MPs fault.

I went there once, no mall, no shops, just her builds to see.... perhaps if she had a mall she would have made enough to keep her land.

[161488303349]

---

Pussycat Catnap wrote:

More proof of my point:

http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2013/01/japan-chubu-and-japan-kansai-gone-from-second-life.html

- A regular occurance now that Marketplace has kiled off all forms of inworld funding.

 

 

---

quote from the comments on same article:

"Visit the sims that are doing well and look around, how are they managing?

Ask the people who run it for advice.

In my case the one thing that keeps our sim going is the community.

Lots of people living there who will make sure the place they love and where they live won't go under." --Jo Yardley

 

+

if you create your own vision on a private build sim that is disconnected from other community/patrons/residents then is not going to survive unless you pay for it yourself

build with connection to others then them others will help/support you financially thru rentals/payments  

 

[solstyse]

All the people who log on to second life everyday are rezzing... somewhere. Not necessarily at a shop. But they're on some land somewhere. But yet nowhere is crowded. Kind of thought provoking, isn't it?

How many sims even pretend to come near the 100 avatar limit? But yet how many tens of thousands of people are here daily? The point is that there is no shortage of things to do in sl. There is no shortage of places to go. People love to panic when their favorite sim dissappears, and think that's what's happening all over sl. Likewise, they look at the numbers, and panic due to closed sims they never visited. The only people who really need to worry about any of that are the employees and stockholders. If your plan is to just go inworld and enjoy, then you'll be much more successful if you don't let those factors stress you into feeling that the second apocalypse is coming.

For the MP... Well, I tend to think of SL kind of like a city. A mall is part of it, and 15 years after the mall stopped being the hip place to hang out in rl, now it's no longer the hip place to hang out in sl. The biggest difference is that the sl "city" isn't stuck with a rotting eyesore of a building due to the shift in consumerism like the rl city is.

I think the people who were defending the mp may have been accused of having more selfish reasons than they actually had when they mentioned their own reasons for their preference. The experience with inworld shopping vs marketplace shopping is the same for everyone. Just like in rl, shopping sl on a websie doesn't let you see the product directly, but it does have the distinct advantage of allowing a person to view only those items they are looking for. And it provides the speed that today's consumer demands. A person can visit many more mp shops in a given amount of time than they can inworld, compare quality and prices, and generally be more discerning about which shops they wish to see inworld. The lag issues at inworld shops are very real, as are the layout issues. The bottom line is that not only to the people who used themselves as examples, but to everybody, the marketplace is mroe geared toward the "average consumer"

But just like the rl cities that were proven wrong in their belief that they would die without their mall, sl will survive without it.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

I don't know where you are from, but the malls in and near where i live in RL are always packed. There are still packs of unwatched tee roaming around in them, as well as elderly walkers, new families (dad mom and baby in stroller) established families(mom dad and a cpl of kids) and the wandering adult looking for that perfect gift. Personally i have always loved shopping in the mall, in SL and in RL.

99% of my purchases are from inworld, after using the MP to find what i am looking for.

[solstyse]

---

Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

I don't know where you are from, but the malls in and near where i live in RL are always packed. There are still packs of unwatched tee roaming around in them, as well as elderly walkers, new families (dad mom and baby in stroller) established families(mom dad and a cpl of kids) and the wandering adult looking for that perfect gift. Personally i have always loved shopping in the mall, in SL and in RL.

99% of my purchases are from inworld, after using the MP to find what i am looking for.

---

 

Where you are from may be the exception, but the "death of the mall scene" scenario has been happening for a few years now in most places. It comes down to most malls being overpriced for what they offer to the retailers there. Also, all of your examples mention the consumer. What about the retailer? I mean, are there as many places for all tose people you mentioned to visit as before?

I'll admit to you right now hat where I live, land values are highly skewed in rl. I can tell you that in all honesty, a "brick and mortar" store where I live is nothing more than a way to give in to political corruption. but the trends of my area are not unique to my area. maybe you live in a place where business is conducted better, where taxation isn't a funnel to the most influential names. Maybve values have survived where you're at. but the trend both nationally and in the state that I live in is that malls are failing.

Maybe it's a symptom of busineses being unwilling to save themselves. A sort of expectation of corporate welfare which federal government, and especially the PA state government have given in to. Or maybe it's something else. But my experiences are that malls no longer offer the best value to the retailer, and in turn prohibit said retailer from offering the best to the consumer.

Again, this is nothing against you or your viewpoint. But if your municipality has kept the traditioin of mall shopping alive while all over the nation it's failing, then perhaps you can take it as a compliment. You live in a place that got it right while most other places got it srong.

[Nadia Barrymore]

Wait.. You actually pay for MAINLAND property?

Lag

Lag

Griefers

Lag

Ugly

Lag

Lag

Griefers

Lag

Did i miss anything? Oh!

Lag

[Czari Zenovka]

---

Nadia Barrymore wrote:

Wait.. You actually pay for MAINLAND property?

Lag

Lag

Griefers

Lag

Ugly

Lag

Lag

Griefers

Lag

Did i miss anything? Oh!

Lag

---

Depends on the sim.  I have lived on the same Mainland sim for 95% of my 5 1/2 years in SL.  Many of the sim residents have also lived long-term on this sim.  (It's a water sim bordered on one corner by two Linden Oceans so many people enjoy the oceanfront parcels for sailing.)

I honestly have never seen the sim griefed.  I'm not on 24/7, but let's say no serious griefing or I'm pretty sure I would have heard about it.

Maybe I got lucky and I know some mainland sims can be a nightmare, but I wouldn't live anywhere else.

[Perrie Juran]

---

Czari Zenovka wrote:

---

Nadia Barrymore wrote:

Wait.. You actually pay for MAINLAND property?

Lag

Lag

Griefers

Lag

Ugly

Lag

Lag

Griefers

Lag

Did i miss anything? Oh!

Lag

---

Depends on the sim.

  I have lived on the same Mainland sim for 95% of my 5 1/2 years in SL.  Many of the sim residents have also lived long-term on this sim.  (It's a water sim bordered on one corner by two Linden Oceans so many people enjoy the oceanfront parcels for sailing.)

I honestly have never seen the sim griefed.  I'm not on 24/7, but let's say no serious griefing or I'm pretty sure I would have heard about it.

Maybe I got lucky and I know some mainland sims can be a nightmare, but I wouldn't live anywhere else.

---

"Depends on the sim."

This!  I too have lived on Mainland for my over 5 years here and have never had a problem.

I know they can be a nightmare when they happen, but I don't think it is as wide spread as some people make it out to be.

[Bliss Zufreur]

we've owned the same mainland areas for almost four years, and we've had very little lag, even living across the road from a club, and having alot of breedables

our neighbors are wonderful, and when things are built that are...icky, we either derender, or wait them out...they always leave

we've had three griefing incidents...replicating prims and particles...they were always placed on a corner of our neighbor's area, not ours, and they were taken care of by LL after ARs were filed...

i really don't understand everyone's problem with mainland, and no, it shouldn't be free

tier could be slightly cheaper tho...we'd buy more..