Mesh is destroying shapes.

[Carl Thibodeaux]

Thought of this the other night in a dream.

When it comes to demo shapes, usually the shapes have a hand/foot thats bigger than the other. Sometimes it's other body parts aswell. But with mesh now, with all the alpha's.. It's possible to just get the demo shape and replace the hands and feet and other parts with mesh body parts. I don't entirely know if this is a good thing or a bad thing at all..

[Charolotte Caxton]

I guess it depends if you are a shape seller or a mesh foot and hand seller.

I thought of this before too, but then I though if they are willing to spend money on mesh hands and feet then they are probably just as able or willing to buy or make their own shape.

Although alphas were out before mesh, like for heels, so maybe you could say Alpha layers are destroying shapes.

[Syo Emerald]

What has this to do with mesh? Alphalayers are much longer part of SL then mesh is. Before mesh you may just pick an alpha and use prim hands and feet.  Guess how furry avatars work.....

[Pussycat Catnap]

---

Syo Emerald wrote:

What has this to do with mesh? Alphalayers are much longer part of SL then mesh is. Before mesh you may just pick an alpha and use prim hands and feet.  Guess how furry avatars work.....

---

According to some comments I read in blogs, the mesh fetishists have destroyed all pixeldom as we know it, and are now moving on to take over the free world in a meshocommunist revolution.

So... EVERYTHING has to do with mesh.

 

Ok...

Um... since the days of invisiprims, people willing to spend 1000L on X so they could save 20L on Y have been able to exploit makers of Y...

I call non-issue.

 

 

[Theresa Tennyson]

---

Carl Thibodeaux wrote:

Thought of this the other night in a dream.

When it comes to demo shapes, usually the shapes have a hand/foot thats bigger than the other. Sometimes it's other body parts aswell. But with mesh now, with all the alpha's.. It's possible to just get the demo shape and replace the hands and feet and other parts with mesh body parts. I don't entirely know if this is a good thing or a bad thing at all..

---

If you saw a trailer for a movie you liked, you could hire the actors to re-enact it in your back yard instead of going to the movie itself. But I don't think a lot of people are going to go to that much trouble either.

[Imnotgoing Sideways]

Alpha layers predate mesh be something like a year or more, no?  I don't see the connection. ()

 

 

[Amethyst Jetaime]

Mesh may be destroying shapes because you have to tweak a shape all the time to get the darn stuff to fit right, but alpha layers aren't.  :smileyvery-happy:

Never really understood why people buy something everyone can easily make themselves with a little time and patience.  It's not rocket science after all.

[Clarissa Lowell]

---

Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

Never really understood why people buy something everyone can easily make themselves with a little time and patience.  It's not rocket science after all.

---

Do you mean alpha layers or shapes?

If you mean shapes maybe they recognize quality. I remember in my early days it was very hard to find a quality shape. One that didn't have exaggerated features or a flat profile or a weird chin or a terrible body. There are some really ugly ones out there. And it wasn't on purpose. A good character shape is hard to find too.

A lot of shapes I see people wearing - especially people who brag about making their own shape instead of paying - are ugly. They tweak the Ruth shape a little bit. They keep most of it the same. They wear a good skin. A person with a good eye can tell the difference. I mean some of the shapes I see on bloggers are so freaking ugly but I won't name names. They refuse to blog shapes because they have no respect for it as an art. I think they can't see the difference between bad and good. Some of their shapes are so bad I can't see how they can't see it. They even post closeups of their own face that could scare mice.

There is a reason some people get paid for their work. I wish those who can't tolerate that thought would just get over it.

I don't know if Mesh is destroying shapes. It sounds like it's destroying demos. Actually not the shapes but the people who are gaming it to rip people off. What else is new. People love to rip each other off in SL.

If anything Mesh might help shape makers because at least people can't say "anyone can do it." At least people have to learn Blender first. There is as much artistic skill involved to realize what looks good, either way, but MAYBE people will respect mesh shapes more artistically speaking. I won't bank on it though!

My main worry is there is no real protection against shapes being ripped off. I don't mean system shapes. I'm over that. I know people think it's all fair game. To me that means they have questionable ethics. But I hope they would at least admit that to copybot a mesh shape is wrong. Even though that's just the same ethically speaking as copying a system shape. if you didn't make the shape you didn't make the shape. Period.

People still IM me for copies of shapes from my old shop. If every shape on SL is the same and interchangeable would they do that? Maybe there is something to the thought after all that shapes can be different and unique. I can tell a lot about a person by the shape they make or choose. I can tell someone's work if it's distinctive at all. But to some people a rose a petunia and a daisy are all the same. And all gardens are belong to them. LOL

That wasn't at you Amethyst even though you seem to be of that camp. I just get sick of the total lack of respect!

[Theresa Tennyson]

I have great respect for the skill that goes into making a shape. What I DON'T have as much respect for are the SHAPES THEMSELVES. This is because making a shape is the equvalent of hairstyling in RL - it's the process of manipulating existing resources to their best advantage. With hairstyling it's the client's hair in relationship to their face. With shapemaking it's the manipulation of the substructure UNDER A SKIN, and UNDER THAT PARTICULAR SKIN. I make shapes for myself and other people, but they're always tuned for a particular skin. [My bona fides for doing this? Master's degree in costume design with the associated years of studying and reproducing anatomy.] People seem to think I'm adorable with the skin and shape I wear, but I'm well aware that the skin I use is rather quirky and if I wear it with most off-the-shelf shapes I'll look like the product of six generations of inbreeding.

I'd say good hairstylist in RL is very skilled and is fully deserving of a generous payment. However, I wouldn't pay nearly as much for a list of lengths of hair they've measured off of a hairstyle from another client because I have no idea if that particular cut will look good on me. Buying a SL shape without a skin or at least a style card would be the equivalent of buying this list of hair lengths. And I'd NEVER pay a hairstylist who froze my hair in place and threatened me with the scissors if I so much as dared adjust part of it once I went home, which is what you get with a no-modify shape.

I'll take your word from your other posts that there are people who resell shapes that they've copied by transcribing the settings from another shape, but I've actually copied down all the settings from one of my shapes in order to duplicate it on another account with that account as creator - it's three pages of data. It's actually much quicker and easier for me to create a new shape than transcribe and reproduce all that raw data.

I'm one of the people who tells others to avoid paying for shapes for these reasons, but also because I want to encourage them to "learn to do their own hair." It's not easy and it takes practice, but all the tools you need are sitting right in the viewer for free. Personally I find it fun and I think a lot others will find it fun too but they won't try it if they are led to believe that the L$800 shape they see on the Marketplace is something fundamentally different that what they have the tools to create right in front of them.

 

[Perrie Juran]

---

Theresa Tennyson wrote:

I have great respect for the skill that goes into making a shape. What I DON'T have as much respect for are the SHAPES THEMSELVES. This is because making a shape is the equvalent of hairstyling in RL - it's the process of manipulating existing resources to their best advantage. With hairstyling it's the client's hair in relationship to their face. With shapemaking it's the manipulation of the substructure UNDER A SKIN, and UNDER THAT PARTICULAR SKIN. I make shapes for myself and other people, but they're always tuned for a particular skin. [My bona fides for doing this? Master's degree in costume design with the associated years of studying and reproducing anatomy.] People seem to think I'm adorable with the skin and shape I wear, but I'm well aware that the skin I use is rather quirky and if I wear it with most off-the-shelf shapes I'll look like the product of six generations of inbreeding.

I'd say good hairstylist in RL is very skilled and is fully deserving of a generous payment. However, I wouldn't pay nearly as much for a list of lengths of hair they've measured off of a hairstyle from another client because I have no idea if that particular cut will look good on me. Buying a SL shape without a skin or at least a style card would be the equivalent of buying this list of hair lengths. And I'd NEVER pay a hairstylist who froze my hair in place and threatened me with the scissors if I so much as dared adjust part of it once I went home, which is what you get with a no-modify shape.

I'll take your word from your other posts that there are people who resell shapes that they've copied by transcribing the settings from another shape, but I've actually copied down all the settings from one of my shapes in order to duplicate it on another account with that account as creator - it's three pages of data. It's actually much quicker and easier for me to create a new shape than transcribe and reproduce all that raw data.

I'm one of the people who tells others to avoid paying for shapes for these reasons, but also because I want to encourage them to "learn to do their own hair." It's not easy and it takes practice, but all the tools you need are sitting right in the viewer for free. Personally I find it fun and I think a lot others will find it fun too but they won't try it if they are led to believe that the L$800 shape they see on the Marketplace is something fundamentally different that what they have the tools to create right in front of them.

 

---

Not everyone is an artist.

Or wants to be.

 

[Clarissa Lowell]

Well your hair cut analogy is a decent one. Haven't you ever had a horrible haircut? That stylist did the best they could. Not everyone is equal when it comes to aesthetic ability.

You can give the same pair of scissors and even the same haircut method to two stylists and they will not perform equally. So it is with the basic tools of making a shape. 

It isn't about the tool or being independent. It's about spatial relationships. It's the same as a talent for drawing or sculpture. You can tell someone exactly what to do. Not everyone will be able to do it equally 'well.' What some people keep missing is that an artist draws with their mind. Not with the pencil, not with the clay, not with the sliders. You have to know where to begin and where to stop.

When you push even one slider it can change an entire head. I've done a portrait shape in the past. I won't go into much detail. But the jaw was still the wrong shape and I knew it. It took some more work because when you change the head shape or jaw shape then if you are any good you have to change other things in response to that. Just the same as you would do more work if you changed part of a drawing because one thing changes everything. Sometimes more than others. It is very very hard to describe it to people who don't see what I mean.

Good practice might be if you pounded a shape down to nothing and then tried to make it over again without looking at any of the original numbers. But the real challenge is to create something individual that works without using any crib sheets or modifying existing work. Take all sliders down to zero and try to make a certain type of face or person. Then make sure it looks good from all angles. 

Trust me people steal shapes. I have proof of that and it's happened to my shapes but I won't or can't go into more detail than that. It happens all the time. You even see people encourage each other to do it. That's why people make no modify shapes.

By all means learn to use the tools and practice at it. You might find talent you didn't know you had. What I do not like to see is people saying it's OK to take parts of other people's body or take a face when it might've taken them a day or more to get that the way it is, in harmony and good enough to call someone's attention to it. If there is such a thing as a good or a bad shape then there is a reason why and that rason was someone's talent and work.

Nothing wrong with being independent if they really are starting from zero.

 

[Clarissa Lowell]

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

 

 

---

Not everyone is an artist.

Or wants to be.

---

This is also true. 

 

[Theresa Tennyson]

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

 

Not everyone is an artist.

Or wants to be.

 

---

You seem to be dividing the world into people who are Artists, who Make Stuff, and Everyone Else, a group of people that Doesn't Make Stuff.

 

If someone's an Artist, you know by seeing or hearing what they do - they take the Stuff they Make to a higher level that's hard to describe but you'll know it when you see it. If someone has to tell you they're an Artist, they probably aren't. But you don't have to be an Artist to Make Stuff.I grew up in a house with a piano. My mother had a sewing room and did fabric crafts. My father had a wood shop in the basement.  I don't think anyone thought of us as a family of Artists, we just Made Stuff. Some of it was meh, some of it was pretty good.

Lately it seems like fewer people are Making Stuff by the time they're old enough to get on SL. It's kind of a shame - it can feel really good to Make Stuff. I found myself running a college costume shop where I taught students basic clothing construction - i.e. "This is called 'thread." We don't call it 'string,' we call it 'thread,'" After using them as slave labor to do show costumes for a few weeks I had them design and make their own pillows. Few of them had any experience Making Stuff but most of them really got into it, even some of the most laid back, literally-falling-asleep-in-class ones. Some of them made absolutely beautiful pillows; some of them made pillows with, well, great personality. Some made extra pillows after they got their first one done, just because they wanted to.

In SL, making shapes is a great way to get into Making Stuff. All the tools are free and they're right in front of you and can be used if you have the hand-eye coordination of a four-year-old. Most people, even those really into SL, have some experience of how other human beings look. No license or union membership is required. Even your very first, probably somewhat scary, shape will be completely functional right out of the box, legal in all jurisdictions and meeting all applicable codes.  When you're making it, the answer to "What happens if I do THIS?" is almost never, "It catches on FIRE!!! AAAHHH!!!"

You can make a shape in an hour but tweak it for years and once you get something you like you can create variations quickly for free. (For those who say, "I'll never change my shape to fit clothes" I'd like to offer six words from RL: PUSH UP BRA - CONTROL TOP PANTYHOSE.)

 You don't have to make your own shape, of course. If you want to have "Danika face" like half the girls my avatar hangs out with you know where to get it. If you want me to sing (I'm Gonna Get On My Pony and) "Ride" by Dee Dee Sharp every time I see you, that's your prerogative. But with barriers to entry this low you might as well dive in and see what happens.

DOOO EEET!

[Perrie Juran]

---

Theresa Tennyson wrote:

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

 

Not everyone is an artist.

Or wants to be.

 

---

You seem to be dividing the world into people who are Artists, who Make Stuff, and Everyone Else, a group of people that Doesn't Make Stuff.

 

---

nope

 

[Charolotte Caxton]

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

Not everyone is an artist.

Or wants to be.

 

---

Agreed.

Everyone has access to creating their own shapes. Everyone also has access to creating their own prims. Some people can make beautiful creations with the inworld prim making tools, some people can only rez a cube.

I think anyone can make a clay figure, but not everyone can make one that looks nice.

Creating a shape that looks nice is not easy just because it is accessible for everyone to do so.

Also, it takes about 5 seconds to buy a shape you are happy with to go running around and start shopping and playing in, whereas it can take hours days weeks and even years to make that 'perfect' shape. 

I could raise my own animals and plant my own veggies, but I would much rather just spend half an hour buying my food than my entire life raising it.

I spent my first year in a free no mod shape. When I made my own I researched a lot and spent a lot of time on me. I am happy with my look, but I was also happy with my first look too.

Summary, anyone can make a shape, but not everyone can make a good one or want to spend their time doing so.

 

[Amethyst Jetaime]

I meant no disrespect to you or any shape maker and I am also very against anyone ripping other peoples work off.

I have been asked many times where I got my shape and when they find out I made it they offer to buy it. I have never sold my shape since I like being unique. I made my shape my first day in SL from scratch. I had an advantage from having a degree in art in RL and know human proportions etc.

The basic mechanics of making a shape is not rocket science. Anyone can look up basic human proportions and with enough time and patience can make an acceptable shape. I say that because while there are people that make excellent shapes that truly are artistic, most of the shapes I have seen for sale do not fall into this category.

If someone does not have or does not want to take the time and patience to create their shape, there is nothing wrong with buying one.  And if you are a successful shape maker than I congratulate you and wish you well. 

However I encourage people to make their own shapes, particularly if they want to have a unique look and save some money.  Unless you think that this is against shape makers, I also enourage people to build for the same reasons, even though I am a professional builder.  I don't mind the "competition". 

 

 

[Pussycat Catnap]

---

Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

 

The basic mechanics of making a shape is not rocket science. Anyone can look up basic human proportions and with

enough time and patience

can make an acceptable shape. I say that because while there are people that make excellent shapes that truly are artistic, most of the shapes I have seen for sale do not fall into this category.

---

I made my first draft of my shape sitting on a gray platform that I'd rezzed into back in 2006 on the old account.

The sign said I was supposed to, so I did. I figured I would not be able to "edit my character" once past the character creation screens in this MMO.

 

Over time most of my changes were limited to correcting proportions once I learned how to rez a set of prims and measure myself out (see guide below).

 

I've tweaked the face only a few times - as I got out of gray and was able to see detail, and as I got a skin that wasn't just a solid color with 'grains' in it.

Most recent adjustment being a bit to make the head more round and dial down the 'egghead' setting - but otherwise I like it, and it is anatomically correctly proportioned to my body - which is within the human range of size -AND- proper in proportion.

 

Doing the body shape to be -PERFECT- to the range of possible human proportions is trivially easy. Anyone can do it if they get on a T-pose stand in a place they can rez a prim. Its all math.

The art comes in with some of the body fat and muscle dials. And then the facial features (and the shape I sell has purposefully dialed back facial features as what I'm selling is meant to be the proportions and sizing predone for someone to be good both to the math -and- to the mesh standard sizes.).

 

The above said, almost ALL of the commercial shape sellers are horrid... I'm sure there are good ones out there, but I have yet to see them. Many of them can do good faces - the art part. But they SUCK at the body proportions - the math part. Many also suck when it comes to scale and issues of where to assign body fat and muscle...

(this comes with the caveat of having never been to the shape shop of anyone who has as yet posted above me in this thread.)

 

 

Its like a freakshow gallery of pretty heads violently detached from their bodies and mounted on stick figures made of medieval pikes to be mounted on the London Bridge as a warning to people to stay away from SL.

 

[solstyse]

I have a lot of respect for people who can make good shapes. And I've seen a whole range from horrid to awesome on the marketplace. Those who got great at it CAN make good money, and deserve to.

Here's my experience playing with the sliders.

"Okay, body looks good, proportional, and not cartoon curvy. Time for the face."

"Looks good from the front... Now the side. YIKES! I need to fix that!"

"Okay. Side looks good... Let's see how it affected the front.... WHY!? It used to look so much better!"

"Okay. I got that mainly back to how I want. Better check the side profile before I destroy that again. ... Good. Just a little more tweaking...."

"something's off. Hmmm. Oh, I see. It's the mouth. Let me just fix that...."

"Oh no, now I don't like the nose anymore."

"Got the nose, but now the eyes need to be closer or further or something. And I need to adjust the mouth again."

Then, after hours upon hours of this.....

"This asian shape that I bought from _________ and this hispanic skin I bought from __________ makes my avatar look like a caucasion who spent a LOT of time in the sun! It's like they were made for eachother! This is exactly the look I wanted! Except bald.  Now onto the hair!"

My point is thta if you make beautiful shapes, you really DO have skill, and you should give yourself the credit you deserve

[Clarissa Lowell]

:heart: :heart: :heart:

[Teddy Wahwah]

For the most part, I will not wear mesh due to my husky kid avatar shape (which I made). Unless mesh some day form fits to shapes without the use of alphas, I will never wear mesh except for hats. Since almost all of of SL uses skinny avatars, there's no real push or need from the masses to have mesh that can form fit to any shape.

[Reikokimyo]

I buy a shape mostly for the face.  I am not artistic in any way, and have a lot of respect for those that can duplicate a human face.  I have tried and lack the ability to distingush between the small details that make up the whole.  Then adding a different skin, takes me back to the beginning of the problem.

Though, I will not by a no mod shape as I do like to play with the body sliders.  I am a lot shorter than most avis (~4ft 9in), and need to be able to adjust hight and coresponding proportions, as that is something I can do a little better.  Though, recently, a friend has made all of this a moot point and made me a custom shape to fit the look I couldnt quite get in anyplace I looked. 

 

I have a lot of respect for creators of good looking shapes, though I feel they are often overlooked, as a good shape shouldnt jump out at you for looking odd.  Either SL has changed for the better, or the people I hang out with have good taste, but I havent seen many if the super tall avis in deperate need of a meal lately.

[Ceka Cianci]

i just tweak a shape some  for certain outfits and put that shape in the folder if it doesn't fit right..

although it's been a few months since i've really messed with anything..

that was how i used to do it when  i was really getting lots of mesh stuff..

i haven't bought anything  in sl in a good while now since i've been on break from it..so things may have changed some..

 

[Pussycat Catnap]

---

Teddy Wahwah wrote:

For the most part, I will not wear mesh due to my husky kid avatar shape (which I made). Unless mesh some day form fits to shapes without the use of alphas, I will never wear mesh except for hats. Since almost all of of SL uses skinny avatars, there's no real push or need from the masses to have mesh that can form fit to any shape.

---

The larger mesh 'Standard sizes' are pretty wide / chubby. And mesh sizes don't care about height. Adult mesh clothing should fit a shorter avatar if these dials still match up:

http://catnapkitty.wordpress.com/2012/07/01/mesh-clothes-dont-care-if-youre-tall-or-short-thick-or-thin-they-care-about-stretch/

Women:

Body Fat

Torso Muscle

Breast Size

Love Handles

Belly Size

Leg Muscle

Butt Size

Saddle Bags

Men:

Body Fat

Belly Size

Torso Muscle

Love Handles

Leg Muscle

Butt Size

Saddle Bags

Package

Pectorals

- If you can match those dials on ANY shape to the ones used for a mesh outfit, the rest of your dials can be anything and it will work (exceptions for breast gravity and cleavage, but these change in RL too when you wear clothes...).

 

[solstyse]

---

Teddy Wahwah wrote:

For the most part, I will not wear mesh due to my husky kid avatar shape (which I made). Unless mesh some day form fits to shapes without the use of alphas, I will never wear mesh except for hats. Since almost all of of SL uses skinny avatars, there's no real push or need from the masses to have mesh that can form fit to any shape.

---

I think you would actually be surprised how many other people won't buy Mesh for very similar reasons. It's about mroe than just being fat or husky. Petite avatars have the same problem. So do avatars that use "no modify" shapes, and people who have spent time proportioning their avatar just how they like, only to then have those proportions replaced by mesh. Personally, I like a mix. But I have to be extremely cautious about mesh clothes. They're more work bo buy, and sometimes out of laziness I'll just buy the old fashioned "system clothes."