Why do the minority / envious/ prudes rule? In regards To Byngo Bonus and other such Things.

[iCade]

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Omni Huntress wrote:

sl "knows their is some supper smart people" in this game like me. Word from the wise "it's not what you do, it's how you do it, and whom you do it too... sl will be another place i have holdings in.....



Think about that

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What I am thinking about right now is; 'how is it possible to make so many spelling/grammar mistakes in just two sentences?'

[Imnotgoing Sideways]

Oh, I just don't care. ()

Long story short: If Linden Lab returns something, think twice before rezzing it again. =^-^=

 

Really, is this one game the sole reason you exist that you're going to spill money into a quack lawyer when the most you'll get out of him are the breath mints he's kept on his desk too long? ()

I drive fast.  Someday I'll get a speeding ticket.  But, I have to be caught first.  Same goes for everything else in SL.  Every AR I have written has been based on TOS violations and every single one has gotten a response.  Just because you have a 100 avatar pileup against something, it doesn't mean that LL is going to act unless a good solid TOS violation is found.  When it is, they tend to delete and return things... Like that game the OP is crying over. ()y

 

 

[Imnotgoing Sideways]

What I'm thinking about is... LOLWUT?  Really, between the grammar and spelling I can't even decipher what's being said. ()

 

[Nyll Bergbahn]

Iam, the creator probably shot himself in the foot to some extent by mentioning the high roller aspect of Byngo for bigger people with lots more Lindens and talk of $L600,000 pots. Pots of $2,400 is big gaming in anyone's books.

Interesting that both you and he refer to Byngo being legal (in SL terms) because it involves 'human input'. Linden Lab only say "Games of pure intellectual or physical skill, such as puzzles or other skill contests, may not fall under this definition." Human input does not constitute skill. Merely sitting on a chair before playing and clicking a board is human input but doesn't make the game legal.

If the creator has complied with the directive below, he should wait until Linden Lab decide what to do. People opening threads on Answers (on which the creator commented) and here on the Forum is not likely to influence its decision in a positive way, especially as the Moderators have already removed two of them.

 

Why was my game returned?

The Second Life policy on wagering prohibits games of chance. If your game was reported for violation of this policy, you should have received a communication from Linden Lab regarding your game.

If you feel this report and the subsequent action to be in error, please contact customer support and raise a support ticket. Attach to the ticket an explanation why you believe it to be a game of skill. Critical elements to include:

• Expert opinions
• Data analysis
• Breakdown of the scoring elements
• How skillful play predominates the game's scoring opportunities

[Innula Zenovka]

So it looks like the ball is really now in the creator's court and she or he should set about putting together this bundle of expert opinions, data analysis and so on, and forward it to LL.   

If, as was said earlier in the thread (how accurately I don't know), the game has been approved already, then presumably this shouldn't present much of a problem to collate.

[Innula Zenovka]

My attention has been drawn to a recent-ish interview with the game's creator, on Metaverse TV.

By his accent, he's a Brit, like me.   Quite apart from what LL make of the game, assuming he's based in the UK  I am pretty certain he needs -- as a maker of software for a bingo game, an operating licence, a separate remote bingo operating licence (actually to run the game) and possibly a personal management licence, too.   And our regulatory regime for gambling is, I think, considerably less restrictive than it is in many parts of the USA.

 

[Snickers Snook]

If he moves to California and declares himself a religious organization, he could probably run his bingo game. But only on his church's land and only for his church's benefit. No one else can take a cut. I wonder if virtual land counts as land ownership in California? Heh. :matte-motes-wink-tongue:

[Iam Runningbear]

 In order to understand the Physical Human input . First you must know how the game is played or at least read the Notecards that layout the games instructions. Which also happen to explain how the skill is more than clicking numbers and sitting in a chair. There is a mental aspect to the game, How you play the critical situations determine the games outcome, This is where Knowledge & Experience play a part in the Human input.

What I find amusing is not so much if the game is legal or not ,as It is to my opinion that nearly all games in SL are not legal depending on how one looks at them. This thread was created to view opinions on why LL takes so long to make decisions that concern the local economy.  It also was created for the fact that a choice few can make claims that affect so many without any type of resolution. This game has a huge impact for some when this is thrown into the mix. One would think LL before jumping the gun would at least inspect items before shutting them down removing and sending letters of warning.

This is what this thread is about.

Far to many times I have seen instances where something was clear cut & dry a violation of TOS. Days if not weeks pass and sometimes the problem is never resolved.

I moved from a sim where a neighbor clearly used all the regions resources. I had been in this sim with a business for nearly 2 years when they moved there. After over 30 AR's and god knows how many tickets I finally gave up and lowered the land price so low someone's bot bought the land. Took a huge loss on it and moved my business. This problem went on unanswered by LL for more than 3 months when I gave up. To this day. This resident still uses all the regions resources and I have been moved from there for more than 8 months.

There seems to be some partiality when it comes to some resident's that  no matter how many AR's are filed nothing is done. It seems to me that regardless of what you can prove a few prudes or a minority group will always prevail.

In this case I think this was a setup due to the circumstances surrounding what has taken place. Hence the Envious.

 I would never dispute LL's decision on whether or not the game is legal or not. We would just like to have a decision. For those of us who own game rooms or clubs if we can no longer use it then we want to clear the space and replace it with something we can.

This is and does have an economical impact on the business owners and one would think LL would try to give us a rapid response.

[Iam Runningbear]

It amazes me that the ones who are here to only agitate and have no constructive input quickly jump to other's typographical errors and grammar as a way of proving their point.

[Iam Runningbear]

Why do you have to be so condescending and arrogant in your comments?  Is it a cover up for your lack of intellectual input on the subject that you feel the need to try and discredit others by attempting to place yourself above them with your silly comments? What if their sole existence in SL is this game? It 's their choice. Is it not? The mere fact they wish or wish not to seek legal representation is their business.

After all Second Life is advertised a virtual world built by its residents.

If a persons world is a game? That  they log into to play. Is that not their world and a part of what Second Life stands for?

Your arrogance in your condescending remarks toward others is sad.

 Do you log into SL just to post comments on Blogs or Forums? With 2076 posts I can't imagine you have time for anything else.

Sorry, I am not trying to upset you or make you feel less of a person but I just don't understand people who act like this.

[Imnotgoing Sideways]

Becuase your question has been answered and you simply don't like the answer. ()y

 

 

[Imnotgoing Sideways]

Well, explain to me what was said.  Was that a threat or something? ()

 

 

[Innula Zenovka]

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Iam Runningbear wrote:

 In order to understand the Physical Human input . First you must know how the game is played or at least read the Notecards that layout the games instructions. Which also happen to explain how the skill is more than clicking numbers and sitting in a chair. There is a mental aspect to the game, How you play the critical situations determine the games outcome, This is where Knowledge & Experience play a part in the Human input.

What I find amusing is not so much if the game is legal or not ,as It is to my opinion that nearly all games in SL are not legal depending on how one looks at them. This thread was created to view opinions on why LL takes so long to make decisions that concern the local economy.  It also was created for the fact that a choice few can make claims that affect so many without any type of resolution. This game has a huge impact for some when this is thrown into the mix. One would think LL before jumping the gun would at least inspect items before shutting them down removing and sending letters of warning.

This is what this thread is about.

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 It seems to me that we're missing a key element in the story.   The only people who can resolve the question of whether or not the game is within the ToS are LL and the game's creator.   It's really between him and them.

Regardless of whether LL have contacted him yet -- which I agree they should have done -- he's clearly aware of the situation and what he needs to provide LL to support the contention that this game is, in fact, a game of skill:

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Critical elements to include:

• Expert opinions
• Data analysis
• Breakdown of the scoring elements
• How skillful play predominates the game's scoring opportunities

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Has he provided LL with this material, which, I would think, it would naturally take them some time to study? 

As I mentioned above, if he's based in the UK, then -- to my mind, at least -- no matter what the outcome of his discussions with LL might be, he should have obtained some operating licences from our Gambling Commission, or persuaded them that his game doesn't fall within their ambit (and if he's persuaded them that, despite the name, it's so dissimilar from Bingo as not to be a gambling game as they understand it to be, then that would be very useful evidence for him to present to LL).

 

[JeanneAnne]

>>I assure you when that day cames and it will not be long before someone with the means will team up and duplicate this rust bucket and walk everyone right out from under your nose.<<

Promise !?!? I can't wait !!

Jeanne

[Poenald Palen]

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

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Alexi Raynier wrote:

Bingo is an illegal online gambling game? Get serious!  I just googled Bingo and got 36,800,000 hits most of which were for online bingo sites, many of which I assure you offer cash prizes.  This not only makes you insinuation not only seem a bit silly, but cast some question on the merits of LL's case against Byngo in general, especially when added to this absurd situation, the very concept of the enforceability of the tos as a valid contract would seem to be a clear violation of the UCC. Could be that this will make a very interesting legal precedent.

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Yeah, there are a lot of them based in the UK, where I live, and where it's perfectly legal to operate an online Bingo game

if you have a licence

.     If you're telling me that the proprietors of Byngo have an online gaming licence that's recognised by the US government and the State of California, then that might well cast a different light on the subject.

 

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Yes, the internet is all international and in the USA, on US soil, there have even been exceptions! For instance, the ancestors of the natives of the land now called USA have thier own tribal nations with their own land, and allow gambling!! US citizens go to these places all the time because the USA government allows it and they have an agreement. Not so with SL as it is basically a US based company, california to be exact, it is subject to US law. So far, internet gambling has been difficult issue with law enforcement and US companies, LL folded when they where being investigated and this is basically NOT US law issue and a TOS issue because LL doesn't want constant investigation. So, basically....even if they HAD a license with California...well, LL says 'no way' and will pull them, I think.

BUT, having said that. The UK is mentioned here and I remember reading a while back that a money company that is simlar to paypal, skrill and whomever else does these services ended up with US citizens money frozen and there was a big worry. So, LL got investigated and then freaked out and lawyers must have advised them to just drop it and endure. The company holding the money was a UK company, but the US government still caused an issue and US citizens had thier accounts frozen! I think LL was protecting the core of it's user base, that is basically people who do not gamble but want to create and play and sort of even just decorate the world and thier avatar in some way.

 

For the OP, this sucks that you can't run your business and does worry me a bit about the "walled garden" type of business model. It seems to serve LL and many end users, the ones you mention can't even rez a box....but, those people do rez things and play and have fun here to! They might be driving one of my creations (and cursing the lag that plauges physics sometimes) as we speek! I doubt it though, I am obscure and don't advertise much. But, still...they are here to have fun and they pay thier lindens just as any artist who has a few hours to spend building things here, scripting and so on! Sad to be a bit mean, but I suppose you mean they are a n00b and didn't know better? With this, I sort of agree. I saw this with star ratings, people giving bad star ratings for things that are beyond the creators control and LL server based! And no, not my products! I think I got a bad 2 stars on one creation because the person was a photographer and I had mentioned it might photo well...they disagreed...but, I only guess from thier profile...they said nothing!!! Which is another issue...if you star it, shouldn't you have to put at least 4-5 words or click a checkbox of possible issues? But, I can always delist, right? Just don't use it and make my own! Alas, the oddity of the walled garden, fuedal systemesque or whatever other names and likening unto's are used.

BUT, you mention of Redzone....did you read all of the readings on this guy? I am not sure I can I believe it all, but it was a bit odd. One paper I saw news he had been exposed as keeping the passwords of people and so on, he got into trouble from his parole officer for not saying he had the computer hardware he had and the business. But, to be honest...Linden dollars are seen as tokens by the US government...though they have a value...so, not sure of the details of his parole. But, since it appears he had a public record of computer based crime, sadly this mars the argument you make! I have nothing against the guy, I have a hard time making money and If you have a skill you can use, you use it if you can get a customer base...I understand that! NO, I don't have a record! But, still...just saying I can understand the guy was maybe trying and just didn't want to be hampered by the parole dudes saying no to his venture! Besides, maybe he intended to keep it all in linden dollars and those are game peices to the government, so no need? You see, it is sort of complicated BUT not the best example because once again, like the US government snooping around LL users and the threat of freezing peoples accounts....well, they are just trying to protect users. Even if that is basically only to ensure a good reliable cash flow, it still sort of protects them a bit...just a bit.

[Imnotgoing Sideways]

LL's gambling stance has more to do with Paypal than law. ()

 

 

[Innula Zenovka]

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Imnotgoing Sideways wrote:

LL's gambling stance has more to do with Paypal than law. (

)

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 The two are related, though.   Paypal don't have anything against gambling.   They  will happily act as payment processors to -- for example -- EU-based gaming sites that have the proper licences, and will happily let me use my PayPal account to service an account with one of these sites because there's no legal problems with them doing that for someone with a UK billing address.

I agree that LL are probably more worried about Paypal, and other payment processors like Visa and Mastercard, withdrawing merchant services from them than are they about being prosecuted, but, in turn, those companies' attitude to gambling is determined by their not wanting to be prosecuted in the US.