Why do the minority / envious/ prudes rule? In regards To Byngo Bonus and other such Things.

[Amethyst Jetaime]

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Iam Runningbear wrote:

 I do have one final comment / question..... When did the TOS supersede the First Amendment? Since we are all so concerned about possible online gambling laws. After all I am American and I live in America. If the US Online Gambling Laws apply here then why not my first amendment rights guaranteeing freedom of speech?

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I did not read the post that was removed, so i cannot say if i agree with you or not about he subject of it nor am I endorsing LL's actions.  However, when you agreed to abide by the TOS upon creating an account here you agreed to limiting your speech to what is acceptable to LL by your own free choice as no one forced you to join.  SL is a private business run by a private company and the forum is a private place.  The first amendment only guarantees your right to free speech insofar as Congress is prohibited from passing laws prohibiting what you can say.  However you have no right to go on private property and say what you please.  It would be within legal rights of the owner to tell you to leave  and if you refuse call the police and have you arrested for tresspassing.

 

US Constitution Amendment 1

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

[Innula Zenovka]

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Iam Runningbear wrote:

Support tickets have been raised... a week  ago. Why does it take a week to make a decision,\?

 

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I don't know if you've had many dealings with support but, unfortunately, they do sometimes take a long time to respond to tickets, particularly in a case like this, where all they can do is pass the matter over to the team who deal with such matters, who are also presumably dealing with several other appeals against suspensions and bannings and so on.   I don't want to distress you, but I remember one woman who was posting over at SLU about her RL husband's problems -- his account was suspended because of some muddle about a charge back on his credit card for a sizeable L$ purchase and that seemed to take weeks to sort out. 

While I've not had any first-hand experience of this, certainly my understanding of the FAQ is that they should be getting in touch with the creator of the items to ask for documentation about why it's not a gambling game.    I guess the question is when, though.

[mischief Goldshark]

i have never played this byngo game before i agree that LL's TOS on gambling are an absolute joke..

there has been a game in world for at least a year called Tip n Earn which even states tip me and 49% of the time ill pay you back double.. absolutely no skill involved just a 49% chance.. a game of chance.. gambling!

This game has been AR'd mulitple times (including by myself) and still nothing has been done about it!

 

[Imnotgoing Sideways]

If you enter my house and constantly admonish me for how ugly you think my couch is, I will kick you out. ()

If you try to replace my furniture with stuff that you "know" is better than mine, I will kick you out. ()

If you spocketing drinks from my refridgerator, I will kick you out. ()

Your right to "free speech" ends when you enter my door.  If you wish to say whatever you want, feel free to do it outside. ()

Same goes for Linden Lab.  We're guests of this forum residing on their hosts.  It's their private property to do as they please and they're not subject to congressional legal limitations because... well.... They're not congress. =^-^=

We are customers of their service.  Just like a convenience store posting a sign saying "No shirt, no shoes, no service", the lab has the same rights.  Violate the TOS and expect your violations to draw attention.  Go too far and expect to be kicked out.  You're in no position to demand that people run their own equipment under your guidelines. ()

If you think you can get 50,000 people to rally behind you and shut down SL, I have a bridge you may be interested in.  Until I saw this thread, I didn't even know that this "Byngo" game existed.  If/when you leave, I really doubt people like me will even notice.  LL will still make money and SL will still live on. ()

But, since we've now met, I feel a bond here.  Can I have your stuff when you leave? =^-^=

 

 

[Imnotgoing Sideways]

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Omni Huntress wrote:

WELL GET READY,,,, I'm getting a lawyre and i suggest the sim owners get one too.....

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HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAhahahahahahahahaaaaaa*cough*!!

I do hope you understand that if Linden Lab brings gambling back to SL, Paypal will disallow transactions and you'll lose the ability to cash out. ()

I'm sure youyre lawyre will explain that to you better than I have. =^-^=

[Eyal Laryukov]

"According to the FAQ on the subject ........  they'll contact the creator" 

 

this is where the problem started, they did NOT contact the creator, they did NOT test the game, and they did not allow the game creators to deffand thier creation.

 

the game was returned for no APPERANT reason, in a manner that is aginst the ToS that LL has had us sign (in a sanse, LL has broken the writen contract they have with the game owner, and by doing so, caused real life damage to the game's team income).

 

yes, this game has only "very little" skill to it, just like many other such games (zyngo, or many of the kickers).  however, LL has already reviewed and OK the game months ago (it has been out and active for more then 6 months).

 

this is what the this thread is about.

[Innula Zenovka]

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Eyal Laryukov wrote:

"According to

the FAQ

on the subject ........  they'll contact the creator" 

 

this is where the problem started, they did NOT contact the creator, they did NOT test the game, and they did not allow the game creators to deffand thier creation.

 

the game was returned for no APPERANT reason, in a manner that is aginst the ToS that LL has had us sign (in a sanse, LL has broken the writen contract they have with the game owner, and by doing so, caused real life damage to the game's team income).

 

yes, this game has only "very little" skill to it, just like many other such games (zyngo, or many of the kickers).  however, LL has already reviewed and OK the game months ago (it has been out and active for more then 6 months).

 

this is what the this thread is about.

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I get that, but I'm now increasingly confused about the sequence of events.

What do you mean by "LL has already reviewed" the game?   As far as I understand it, they don't "review" games to see if they fall foul of the gaming policy unless and until someone ARs the game.   Then, at least according to the wiki, they ask the creator for details.

What's happened here?  Is the complaint that someone ARd this game months ago, SomeoneOrOther Linden reviewed it, and said it was OK?   In that case, I would have thought that contacting SomeoneOrOther Linden and asking him or her to intervene would be the sensible next step.

Or is it that this is the first time it's been ARd and, contrary to what it says in the FAQ, they've not contacted the creator for details of how it works?  If that's the case, I agree they should have done, but it leaves me puzzled about who from LL reviewed the game and when and how.

[Eyal Laryukov]

"I get that, but I'm now increasingly confused about the sequence of events."

 

ok, I'll try to explain it as best I can.

 

the game has been out for some time

like all SL games, it was buggy.  some times failing to pay the winners.  I don't know if it was AR'ed back than, but I'm pretty sure that over the first few weeks of it's release, someone was unhappy, and reported it.

 

in many cases where a player complaint directly to the game team, the issue was looked into, and even in cases where the player was wrong, he was refunded, or paid the amount he was suppose to win.

 

most likely, as a result of these first weeks, the game was looked over by LL, and they have made contact with the game creator, and in the end, they saw nothing ToS viloating about the game.

 

last week, a land owner requested that a byngo game be placed in his land.  in under 5 hours, and before THAT game (on that sim) was played even once, that game board was returned.  this was the first strike aginst the game; the account owner was told "no farther action is needed of you".

 

3 days latter, the game owning account recved a second strick, this time, as a result of a game that was rezzed LONG ago on a very populear sim.

 

having recved two stricks in such a short time span, it was clear that if the game was allowed to continue to run, a third strick might come, before the issue of the first would be resolved, something that would probably cause the deletion of the account, the loss of all the money that was in it, and probably effecting all the members of the game's team.

 

it was decided that the best (yet painful) course of action, was to pause the game, and wait for an "ok" from LL.

[Innula Zenovka]

Thanks.  But have LL ever, in fact, been in touch with the game's creator, either shortly after it came out or more recently?   From what the FAQ say, the review process involves asking the creator (rather than the owner of any particular instance of the game) for details of how it works and so on.

I mean, if it's been reviewed, then someone -- presumably the game's creator -- must have kept copies of the correspondence with LL, and I'd have thought it would then be a simple matter to say to LL, "look, this game's already been reviewed by SoAndSo Linden, who said it was OK, when it was ARd the first time, and here's the email I was sent confirming this".

[Eyal Laryukov]

> "... I'd have thought it would then be a simple matter to say to LL ..."

 

yes, one would think it would be so simple.

 

I'm not sure of the exact conversation the game creator had with which LL emplee.  I do know LL have been to the game creator's sim, and the two did talk about the game.

 

all the games are being own by an alt of one of the game's team members (obviuosly you would not want to be using your own account as the owner of game that deal with a lot of money transfers; this is how it's done with almost any grid wide game).  That alt has clear instrucations about who's the games own, and who should be contacted in cases of problems.

 

I agree that in cases of mega prims, contacting the creator is a null point, but when the owning account says "contact this guy, he's the creator", you should.

[Iam Runningbear]

Wow.. How insulting you are.

Thank you for your enlightenment

 Who said anything about trying rally 50.000 people behind me and shut down SL. I certainly did not. But i can take the $6,000 dollars i spend and the $65,000 in employee revenues  i generate each year and go to one of the other sites.

No need to be so paranoid about this. No one is trying to shut down LL or insinuate anything remotely resembling that.

The crux of the issue is it takes for ever to get an answer and when hundreds if not thousands of lindens are at stake there should be some priority.

That's all we are asking. A answer.. Just like in the case where redzone was removed. I think it was a dumb decisions but i am entitled to my Opinion. It was removed.

Just think it is crazy to single out this one game when so many others are more of a gambling risk. Why not just remove them all. Do a check on search for games or gaming visit the sights and then tell me there is not gambling in SL.

We just do not understand why it has taken a week to say go or no go.

[Imnotgoing Sideways]

You already got your answer.  It was deleted.  It's a violation.  End of story. ()

You just want a different answer.  One that follows your sensibility instead of the TOS.  Lacking a different answer, LL provides no answer.  You're entitled to nothing here.  The lab does not owe you a thing.  You can't say what you want and you won't get an answer which pleases you.  ()

It's cute to see you flash money around, but, that $65k drop in the bucket is barely a shy glimmer of what a few estate owners contribute to SL.  Feel free to take it elsewhere.  The lab will survive just fine without it.  ()

The only reason anyone gets away with any violation of the TOS is this: They haven't been AR'd yet.  So, gamblers, money launderers, bot runners, griefers, sexual ageplayers, racists, bullies, frauds, adfarmers, and many others go about their day "free" to do what they wish in spite of the TOS. (>.>)

You got caught.  Deal with it. ()

Just remember me when you leave and give me your stuff on your way out. ()y

 

 

[Iam Runningbear]

 Your trying to make this personal between you and I and it isn't.

Thats the whole point now.

 I am not going to get drawn into your lack of maturity.

Have a wonderful SL.

[Innula Zenovka]

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Eyal Laryukov wrote:

I'm not sure of the exact conversation the game creator had with which LL emplee.  I do know LL have been to the game creator's sim, and the two did talk about the game.

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Thanks.  Seems to me that the key figure now is the game's creator.   Either she or he has already had the code reviewed (from the wiki, the review process is rather more than just a conversation) and is in a position to say to LL, "Look, I've already been through this with Somebody Linden, who has examined the game and says it's OK" or  should be contacting LL direct and saying, "Look, this isn't a game of chance, as I can demonstrate to you if you just tell me what you need to see and who I should send it to".

Certainly, I think LL should have taken the initiative and contacted the creator, but since they apparently haven't, I'd have thought it's now up to the creator to try to get things moving.  

This is why I've always turned down requests to script games for people -- it's exactly the sort of mess I've always feared would result if I did.   

[Eyal Laryukov]

>"You already got your answer.  It was deleted.  It's a violation"

 

No, actully, LL never gave that answer.  they never gave ANY answer.  they have never replied to the ticket "why was this game returned", and they have never said that the game was in violation of ToS.

 

That resoning, is the brain child of people trying to GUESS why LL did what they did.  And believe me, the game dev' team have much better guesses, but they are not into playing any guessing games.  the game creators, the hundreads of sim owners, and the countless of players of the game deserve an answer.  be that answer "oops, we made a mistake", or "we don't like games that start with the letter 'b' ". we deserve an answer.

[Alexi Raynier]

I am so glad to hear no one gets away with violations and ARs are not ignored, that should be very comforting to the customers who were taken by a blatant SL con man who even bragged about SL not being able to catch him or her, and took one customer for over 2000uds and several for at least 100 000 linden.  Funny thing that episode led to about 100 ARs was never acted up and the only response anyone got was further harassment for the con man who continues to brag that he is uncatchable and untouchable by LL, despite the fact that he or she depending on the identity he is using this week is continued to be ARed with no effect.

I cant blame you though for not being aware of the realities under which player exist in SL since given your massive amount of posts to the forums you are obviously far too busy there to pay attention to what actually goes on in SL.  Still one has to wonder where you priorites lie, though with every word you utter that becomes increasingly clear, so the next question is why cannot sl simple give a simple answer to the questions raised here rather than use trolls to muddy the waters and attempt to cloud what is a serious legal and moral issue that needs addressing.

[iCade]

How could you possibly know the creator was not contacted by LL? Unless you are him/her there is no absolue way for you to know.

Also, file all the tickets you want, this issue is between LL and the creator and you as an outsider will not be involved, and they certainly won't tell you anything, which is their right, and the logical thing to do. They don't tattle about things that aren't your business. You may be affected but you are not in any way in the position to demand answers. Only the game creator is.

Personally, I did play games on gaming sim's before and have yet to find a game where actual skill is involved on these gaming sim's. Pretty surprising LL hasn't taken down more games. Only having 5 seconds to click a number is NOT skill, getting wild cards and using them is NOT skill. It's chancing.

[Iam Runningbear]

But isnt' it odd they single out the ones that produce the most revenue or the most popular?

Correction. Its not singled out. i can not say that.

But i do find it suspecious that the one that is most poplular and produces the most revenue is the one that gets taken down whether it be by LL or the creator turning off his server in an effort to save his avitar from being banned from SL.

[Iam Runningbear]

 We all understand LL will not contact us on the creators situation.  We all know filing personal tickets will not get us an answer of any type. This is not what we are asking for. Byngo is just the object that has stemmed the issue of lack of timely response by LL.

 I know from personal experience. Sometimes it takes weeks to get action on a situation. I have even had ticket closed that were never answered concerning Parcel Issues. Never answered. It happens far to often.

To be fair, I will say I have had some land tickets that were answered within hours.

 I have had cases where I was able to get a live linden to come look at a situation.

I have had them to come to a Parcel and inspect and ok certain activities. More specifically when the Adult Land merger took place. There was a lot of questions on what could be done on Moderate regions. I personal was able to get a response and get it in a timely manner.

But as of late the response time has been horrendous. 3 or 4 weeks on an AR for a shouting object emitting unwanted spam and 8 AR's is far to much time to act. Especially when the abuse that was reported is effecting a business.

Business be it LL or a resident is what keeps this economy running. The two go hand in hand. One must compliment the other for it to succeed. For one to stall or pull against the other means one will fail. If the two are required to succeed then the ultimate end is dismal.

We are pushing more for a speedy responce to an answer to this issue that concerns all business and sim owners that use this Object as a means of revenue.

This is not so much the legality of the game and we will abide by LL's decision. Either way. We just need a decision so we as owners of business's can move forward.

We could I guess just give up and it will ultimately go by the wayside but is this a good practice on the part of LL?

How many more times will we be against this very same situation? In Limbo. Is the slow response time a good business practice by LL to all who invest, provide Jobs and revenue that keep the economy alive in SL? How long before many more give up and leave. I have seen already so many leave. Fantastic creators that just gave up due to lack of support.

Business owners need a direct pipeline to a Linden Ear.

 

[Deja Letov]

I think everyone is making a lot of assumptions on the "why" of why this is happing. The fact is nobody but the creator and LL really know what happened or what will happen. To be honest, I feel like we are all missing part of the story here, some things just sound "off" and we won't know anything until LL has contacted the creator and makes an official response and the creator decides to share that response. Unfortunately, as you have pointed out they are refusing to do so in a timely manner. But come on...are you surprised? We've all LL's business practices, this is just another day, nothing special to note about this particular incident. People are leaving SL for many reasons, this reason included. I'm not stupid, I know SL will most likely be gone one day because of the way they run their business but unfortunately it's their business to run how they want and if they want to run it into the ground, I guess that's their perogitive.

 

[Omni Huntress]

sl "knows their is some supper smart people" in this game like me. Word from the wise "it's not what you do, it's how you do it, and whom you do it too... sl will be another place i have holdings in.....

Think about that

[Innula Zenovka]

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Deja Letov wrote:

I think everyone is making a lot of assumptions on the "why" of why this is happing. The fact is nobody but the creator and LL really know what happened or what will happen. To be honest, I feel like we are all missing part of the story here, some things just sound "off" and we won't know anything until LL has contacted the creator and makes an official response and the creator decides to share that response. Unfortunately, as you have pointed out they are refusing to do so in a timely manner.  

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Or, it could be, couldn't it, that LL are presently reviewing whatever they've asked the creator to send them to support the assertion that this game is not, in fact, a gambling game as LL seem to think, or they're still waiting to hear back from the creator with the documentation they've requested?

I agree with you -- some things in this saga just don't hang together.   Certainly, if LL had, in fact, formally reviewed the game I'd have expected by now that someone would have said, "Look, we've got this email from Whatever Linden, dated whenever, saying that he or she sees no problems with this Byngo game,  What on earth is going on?"

Or it could be that this is the first time LL have actually formally inspected the code, in which case it  doesn't surprise me particularly that it's taking them a bit of time to study it.   Or maybe they haven't bothered to ask the creator yet, which would be remiss of them, but certainly if it was something I'd scripted, by now I'd have taken the initiative, sent them the sort of documentation described in the FAQ to support my contention that game was within ToS and be pressing them for a response.

I'm just completely unclear, though, who the creator of the game and scripts actually is, and what they say their contacts with LL have been.

[Deja Letov]

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

I'm just completely unclear, though, who the creator of the game and scripts actually is, and what they say their contacts with LL have been.

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I'm with you. Honestly, I thought it was the original poster who was the creator but after reading the thread I see it is not the case. Maybe the creator could post and shed some light instead of us all guessing what's going on. I don't own the Byngo system myself, but I have played it and it was a lot of fun. I'd love to see it stay.

[Cinnamon Lohner]

Here is an article written Monday that talks about the topic of this thread.

http://slnewser.blogspot.com/2012/04/byngo-maybe.html

--Cinn

[iCade]

It's simple logic really, the bigger the game, the more attention people will pay to it. Ergo, the higher the chance of AR's being filed against that game and the higher the chance of LL looking into it.