Should 'Verified RL.....' Groups Actually Be Allowed ?

[Verena Vuckovic]

Something strikes me as being increasingly absurd within SL.

On the one hand, we have Lindens promoting the right to absolute 'privacy', right down to even trying to enforce the correct display of avatar online status and prevent people circumventing it. And yet....on the other hand we have increasing pressure upon people to reveal and be their 'real' selves. Not just through the promotion of links to Facebook, etc, but also through the ever increasing rise of, for example, groups with titles such as ' Verified RL...( substitute some RL attribute ).

Now you might argue that it is entirely down to people to what extent they hide or reveal info. But really, that is not the way things actually *work* in SL. The rise of groups such as 'Verified RL Female', for example, puts increasing pressure on anyone ( be they really female or not ) to 'verify' or be excluded.

That strikes me as being totally at odds with the general principle of the right to absolute privacy. If something as mere as online status is so sacrosanct......yet something like 'true' gender can be forcibly revealed through peer pressure....then we have a fundamental contradiction at the heart of SL.

In my view, any group with title such as ' Verified RL.....' runs totally counter to the whole ethos of SL. The very existence of any such group implies that one does NOT have the right to such privacy. One has to wonder, then, why Lindens allow such groups to exist.

 

[Phil Deakins]

I've never come across such groups. What's the purpose of them? For me, nobody's gender is verified except by me

[Verena Vuckovic]

There are numerous such groups. Their pupose is exactly as their name implies........to 'verify' that a person is this or that in RL. For example, they 'verify' that a person is 'really' a woman by use of web cam or some such means. It's essentially for those paranoid people who cannot bear the thought that someone might not actually BE whatever sex, looks, race, height, degree of baldness, or whatever...that their avatar displays. Primarily it is used by what most refer to as the 'gender police'.......who simply cannot bear that anyone might be logged into SL with a sex other than their RL one.

[Ceka Cianci]

---

Verena Vuckovic wrote:

There are

numerous

such groups. Their pupose is exactly as their name implies........to 'verify' that a person is this or that in RL. For example, they 'verify' that a person is 'really' a woman by use of web cam or some such means. It's essentially for those paranoid people who cannot bear the thought that someone might not actually BE whatever sex, looks, race, height, degree of baldness, or whatever...that their avatar displays. Primarily it is used by what most refer to as the 'gender police'.......who simply cannot bear that anyone might be logged into SL with a sex other than their RL one.

---

basically all i really have to say is..as long as they keep it in their group who cares?

when they start jumping outside and spreading thier insecure bull crap and get demanding..they best watch out then..because they put themselves at risk..

it's harrassment  right out of the box..

 

 

[Phil Deakins]

Interesting. I wonder why anyone would accept the word of a group owner. I also wonder why anyone would prove themselves with cams to one person (a group owner) and not to the actual friend. It all seems a bit fishy to me

For me to know that a person is a particular gender, there is only one person who can verify it - me That's not to say that I disbelieve those who I haven't personally verified. I accept everyone at face value unless there are indications to the contrary. However, I am one of those for whom RL gender does matter if it gets to being intimate. In those circumstances, it's the RL me who is being intimate, and not just playing with pixels, so it matters to me that I only do that with an RL someone of the opposite gender.

ETA: I was thinking of using Ceka as an example of a female avatar that I believe and accept is an RL she, without me ever having had any contact with her except in forum posts. I didn't use the example but, coincidentally, there she is - posting as I was writing this post lol

[Freya Mokusei]

Nonsense. There have been these sorts of groups in SL since I joined at least in 2006.

None of them have ever been able to put any pressure on any other resident; I would say that any resident would quickly realise that they don't need to belong to one of these groups to prove anything, to anyone.

Your privacy argument is redundant since people joining these groups are doing so voluntarily.

 

SL is awesome because it lets people choose how much they want to share.

It would NOT be as awesome if people were forced to share according to your 'ideals'.

[Verena Vuckovic]

"basically all i really have to say is..as long as they keep it in their group who cares?"

But you probably know as well as I do that that entire ethos doesn't stay within those groups. I'm sure most women in SL have met the ( increasingly prevalent ) folks who *insist* on voice......and it is quite clear *why* they insist on it.

The issue that I have is with inferences. Won't voice ? Won't 'verify' ? Oh....then you cannot possibly really be a woman. One is shoved into the 'fake' category by default.

This runs totally counter to the whole notion of a world whose entire basis is the freedom to be whatever a person wants to be. What started out as ' Your World....Your Imagination'.....ends up just being a hyped up 3D extension of Facebook.

 

 

[Verena Vuckovic]

"Your privacy argument is redundant since people joining these groups are doing so voluntarily."

Well....no. The privacy argument is relevant because the entire basis of the existence of such groups is essentially an argument that people have no right  to such privacy ! Anyone who is so paranoid that they feel that people simply must reveal their true status is effectively saying that the right to privacy itself must be overriden.

"SL is awesome because it lets people choose how much they want to share."

Come off it. Any group with a title 'Verified RL......' is not the least interested in that right of choice. It wants to override it. It is essentially demanding that one *has* no such right. The entire rationale of such groups is that people should NOT have the right to 'hide' infomation abou themselves.

[Freya Mokusei]

---

Verena Vuckovic wrote:

I'm sure most women in SL have met the ( increasingly prevalent ) folks who *insist* on voice......and it is quite clear *why* they insist on it.

The issue that I have is with inferences. Won't voice ? Won't 'verify' ? Oh....then you cannot possibly

really

be a woman. One is shoved into the 'fake' category

by default

. 

---

You'd have saved a lot of time by getting to your point right away.

If this behaviour bothers you, then move on to new people. You're clearly not what they're looking for, and they're clearly not what you're looking for. Trying to weed it out with petty rules and doing so under the guise of 'protecting privacy' are both bad approaches.

[Phil Deakins]

You find fault with people who want to be sure that they are being intimate with someone who is not the gender they claim to be? I don't share your view.

I agree that people can choose to refuse to reveal their RL gender. As you said, the basis of SL is the freedom to be whatever a person wants to be, and that necessarily includes being a person who wants to know for sure the gender of ther person they are dealing with.

I don't agree with you about those who won't reveal their gender getting pushed into the "fake" box though. The only box they go in is the "won't reveal their gender" one.

People are free to want to know and to not care either way. It's entirely down to each individual and is nobody else's business.

[Freya Mokusei]

---

Verena Vuckovic wrote:

Well....no. The privacy argument is relevant because the entire

basis

of the existence of such groups is essentially an argument that people

have no right

  to such privacy !

---

Nope, sorry.  Sharing information intentionally is not the same as having your privacy exploited.

 

---

Verena Vuckovic wrote:

The entire rationale of such groups is that people should NOT have the right to 'hide' infomation abou themselves.

---

Source please. I don't think anyone WANTS to force anyone to prove anything. Group owners aren't running around demanding people 'join or die'. The group simply existing does not mean it's trying to convert everyone. (So far, the only one trying to exert force over anyone is you.)

This is not a big deal.

[Ceka Cianci]

---

Verena Vuckovic wrote:

"basically all i really have to say is..as long as they keep it in their group who cares?"

But you probably know as well as I do that that entire ethos doesn't stay within those groups. I'm sure most women in SL have met the ( increasingly prevalent ) folks who *insist* on voice......and it is quite clear *why* they insist on it.

The issue that I have is with inferences. Won't voice ? Won't 'verify' ? Oh....then you cannot possibly

really

be a woman. One is shoved into the 'fake' category

by default

.

This runs totally counter to the whole notion of a world whose entire basis is the freedom to be whatever a person wants to be. What started out as ' Your World....Your Imagination'.....ends up just being a hyped up 3D extension of Facebook.

 

 

---

i really don't give a crap what they think..they can think what they like..the second they open their mouth and spread a rumor that is right or wrong..thats disclosure..

and these have been around for a long time in sl..groups or individuals..

nobody should care what someone thinks of them..the ones going around saying this person is this gender because they wouldn't do this or that..those people are showing themselves as the ones we need to look out for ..not the ones not wanting anything to do with them..

myself i could give two horse piles what anyone thinks i am..my husband knows what i am and thats all i'll ever need..

even at 30k logins..there are still enough people on this grid to not have to worry about some asshat worried about if someone is a female or not ..it's all going in his lap anyways LOL

 

[Verena Vuckovic]

"I don't agree with you about those who won't reveal their gender getting pushed into the "fake" box though. The only box they go in is the "won't reveal their gender" one."

 

But the entire basis of groups such as 'Verified RL....' is that you are by default a fake if you wont 'verify'. No....they are not offering a 'wont reveal true gender' option. That's the whole point. The agenda being pushed is that you simply don't have the right to such privacy in the first place.

These groups are basically arguing that the TOS is wrong.

 

[Madelaine McMasters]

---

Freya Mokusei wrote:

---

Verena Vuckovic wrote:

I'm sure most women in SL have met the ( increasingly prevalent ) folks who *insist* on voice......and it is quite clear *why* they insist on it.

The issue that I have is with inferences. Won't voice ? Won't 'verify' ? Oh....then you cannot possibly

really

be a woman. One is shoved into the 'fake' category

by default

. 

---

You'd have saved a lot of time by getting to your point right away.

If this behaviour bothers you, then move on to new people. You're clearly not what they're looking for, and they're clearly not what you're looking for. Trying to weed it out with petty rules and doing so under the guise of 'protecting privacy' are both bad approaches.

---

I'm not (I hope) terribly cynical, but I have encountered a couple "Verified RL" groups which immediately had me wondering if they were smokescreens. On a whim, I joined one briefly. I was never asked to verify anything. But, even if verification was required, that verification is a discrete, controlled event. So, if I wanted to verify as a male, I could get a male friend to make the verification call and I'm now a verified male.

I'm with Phil on this. I feel no peer pressure from the existence of such groups and if I ever feel that verification is needed, I'll do it myself. Being a member of a "Verified RL" group is no different than being a member of any other kind of interest group. If "knowing" RL identity is someone's interest, it's helpful for me to know that.

[Ceka Cianci]

---

Verena Vuckovic wrote:

"I don't agree with you about those who won't reveal their gender getting pushed into the "fake" box though. The only box they go in is the "won't reveal their gender" one."

 

But the entire

basis

of groups such as 'Verified RL....' is that you are

by default

a fake if you wont 'verify'. No....they are not offering a 'wont reveal true gender' option. That's the whole point. The agenda being pushed is that you simply don't have the right to such privacy in the first place.

These groups are basically arguing that the TOS is wrong.

 

---

they can argue until the cows come home..let them break it ..let them get AR'd over and over..then let them keep making alts because of being banned over and over saying how wrong it is..

the only ones they are hurting are those that feel they have any power what so ever...

the fact is they trick people into thinking their opinion matters one freaking bit..

who cares if one person or 100 think we are not what we are?

there are thousands of people on this grid..

i wouldn't have suspicions about someone saying F'Off ya big jerk..

the ones that will look suspicious is the ones making a big deal about it..who cares..want privacy??then let them think you are something you are not..you can't buy that kind of privacy LOL

 

[Freya Mokusei]

---

Verena Vuckovic wrote:

But the

entire

basis

of groups such as 'Verified RL....' is that

you are

by default

a fake if you wont 'verify'

. No....they are

not offering a 'wont reveal true gender' option

. That's the whole point. The agenda being pushed is that

you simply don't have the right to such privacy in the first place

.

These groups are

basically arguing that the TOS is wrong

.

 

---

I've underlined the sections in which you're being hyperbolic/hystrionic and/or projecting. I choose to verify that people I'm talking to won't be so intentionally misleading with their words, so this will be my last reply in this thread.

 

People have the freedom to select friends, aquaintences and lovers by any set of standards they choose. They don't have to be politically correct, and they don't have to satisfy you that their conditions are fair. They also can't be forced to associate with anyone they don't want to. People will organise themselves according to their wants, regardless of any idea of the 'ethos of SL' that you believe exists. Grant them the freedom that they grant you; the freedom not to care.

[Qwalyphi Korpov]

The resident who provided the previous content, if any, has replaced it with this generic statement.

[Verena Vuckovic]

"Source please. I don't think anyone WANTS to force anyone to prove anything."

Lol....I'm just looking at some of the 'Verified RL....' group descriptions.....which contain phrases like....

1)  Tired of men pretending to be women or the other way around? This is the solution! Never let people cheat on you anymore! This group officially verifies if your sex is real. Verifcation done with voice and/or webcam verification. After you are officially verified, you will get the Verified Male / Female tag. And everyone will know you are real and honest!

2) the girl is ONLY verified if she has the tag "Verified Webcam"!! Do NOT accept any offer if the 'girl' doesn't have this tag!!

3) Upon joining this group as "Unverified", you can verify via voice, cam, or both to receive the Verified title and set the record straight. To receive the verified title, you must be over 18 (If you appear underage, you'll be asked to show a santized ID), and match the same sex as your avatar. If you have a first life photo, we can verify that too via webcam.

4) prove you're identity to us,and we let you join our group,so that everybody sees that you're real.. all the girls in our group are verified !

 

You seriously think these groups don't want to force anyone to prove anything ?????

[Madelaine McMasters]

---

Qwalyphi Korpov wrote:

ikr

more than one times in these forums ppl has said to me 'u r not a RL chipmunk' n stuff like that

i will not be forced to verify

this pressure is unfair n cruel

bad ppls

bite me

---

You know I've been harboring the suspicion you're actually a weasel, don't you?

/me gives you a li'l nibble.

[Pussycat Catnap]

If you think its a ToS violation, abuse report it and wait to see if the group's still around in a week or two.

 

 

---

Verena Vuckovic wrote:

But you probably know as well as I do that that entire ethos doesn't stay within those groups. I'm sure most women in SL have met the ( increasingly prevalent ) folks who *insist* on voice......and it is quite clear *why* they insist on it. 

---

Something like this:

http://wow.joystiq.com/2012/04/09/drama-mamas-more-unwanted-sexual-attention/

[Deej Kasshiki]

I'm going with Freya here. I've seen some of these group tags but, they're not widespread. Even if they were, so what? I've never felt any pressure to verify a damned thing to anyone. When voice debuted I didn't feel pressure to use it just because I saw lots of people walking around with little dots above their avatar heads.

You're proceeding from a false assumption, OP. These totally voluntary groups aren't pressuring anyone to do anything. In SL you still have the freedom to present yourself as you see fit and associate with (or not) whom you choose.

[Ceka Cianci]

---

Verena Vuckovic wrote:

"Source please. I don't think anyone WANTS to force anyone to prove anything."

Lol....I'm just looking at some of the 'Verified RL....' group descriptions.....which contain phrases like....

1) 

Tired of men pretending to be women or the other way around? This is the solution! Never let people cheat on you anymore! This group officially verifies if your sex is real. Verifcation done with voice and/or webcam verification. After you are officially verified, you will get the Verified Male / Female tag. And everyone will know you are

real and honest

!

2)

the girl is ONLY verified if she has the tag "Verified Webcam"!! Do NOT accept any offer if the 'girl' doesn't have this tag!!

3)

Upon joining this group as "Unverified", you can verify via voice, cam, or both to receive the Verified title and

set the record straight

. To receive the verified title, you must be over 18 (If you appear underage, you'll be asked to show a santized ID), and match the same sex as your avatar. If you have a first life photo, we can verify that too via webcam.

4)

prove you're identity to us

,and we let you join our group,so that everybody sees that you're real.. all the girls in our group are verified !

 

You

seriously

think these groups don't want to force anyone to prove anything ?????

---

that is to join their group..

they are allowed to have that kind of group..those that don't want to join their group they probably don't care one way or the other what they are.. but they do care who is in their group..and that is their right..

just as goreans have certain things they want in their group or pg type groups want in their groups..

when they take it outside of their group and bring it to the public..then it's a grid problem..

until then it's a private group..if you don't meet their conditions you can't enter..sounds like a good deal to me..because i sure wouldn't want to be in it..thank whoever that we can't accidentally fall into it somehow hehehe

 

[Pussycat Catnap]

You can also always make a male alt that pretends to be the "man" that has proven all these women (your main account and friends) are 'real' by personally using his little boy-toy on them in RL...

- Since these groups boil down to a harem with a male as the 'truthful' figure, on the belief that male testimony is more reliable...

Just make a fake male account... and start your own 'harem'...

... until you get AR'd for violating the RL disclosure rules.

 

[Dilbert Dilweg]

I don't see anything wrong with it

Privacy is by choice. not by force.

It is crazy to even think that such a group insists  there is no choice in privacy. It is a vountary group made by voluntary people and you  have a choice to join and reveal or not join, no pressure... lol Are you serious?

Why would you want to invade someone elses personal rights to assemble? lol

 

[mikka Luik]

Seriously funny from the Av who was so insistent that wanting to be in world but showing as away was the basest form of skullduggery (yay neat word) and obviously 'up to nefarious...' i believe =^^= Certainly cheered me up.

And there are people here who make a fair chunk of cash for being ahem verified.