Gatogateau

Back in another thread, a comment was made about using the word "girls." There was a kerfuffle. @Scylla Rhiadra said something that was spot on, and I should go find the quote, but I'm too lazy. Basically it was eye-rolling about feminists trying to out feminist each other. This is applying here. In that situation "girl" which can absolutely be used as a put down, wasn't used in that situation, and the word "girl" was taken out of context for a rather shrill bit of one-upmanship on who could be the most PC. The analogy is apt in this thread, too. Apparently there is only One True Way to have a Liberal White Guilt and White Privilege hand-wringing discussion about the very real problem of racism in the USA. All others need not apply. I find it ridiculous and self-serving. YMMV obviously.

I disagree. I'm allowed. On both parts. Sorry, PC think is just as bad as Cheeto think in a lot of ways. My voice matters. ETA: I'm rather offended that again my intelligence is being questioned, and/or my intents, because I don't follow the allowed, accepted PC jargon and have to be educated by reading, yet another article, on how to speak "correctly." No.

I get that. I get what you are saying. I'm saying you cannot throw out words in context just because a phrase you don't like is being used. I wrote more on this to Amina so I won't go on about it. If it were just to say "all lives matter" and drop it at that, without more discourse, you're spot on. To castigate the use of "all lives matter" in the context of (hopefully) a more nuanced discussion is detrimental and not the best way to converse.

While I "thank you'd" your post, I don't entirely agree with this part. First and foremost "we need to listen and learn." Amen. Full stop. Agree. If nothing else happens, this would be huge. People don't listen. They are so caught up in their own little belief systems that they just don't process. So if the only way someone can learn is to shut up, then shut up. Also, yeah, you can't talk AND listen at the same time. BUT you can listen and then talk and then listen again and then talk. White people should be talking, but it should be a conversation. We aren't really having the conversation, we're having soliloquies.

AUGH!!! Amina, I adore you. But, geez. Ok, here's another version of my points. Saying "all lives matter" in lower case, is not the same thing as supporting ALM the movement. Saying all lives matters does NOT mean that (all or maybe even most) people are misguided and/or supporting a CAMPAIGN. I don't know about Paul. I read him, and a few others, through MY lenses. They are not YOUR lenses. So I read the words IN CONTEXT of what ELSE was being written. WORDS matter. Context matters. If someone had come in here and blasted, "BLM is a joke because ALM!" then, yeah, context and that person would have undoubtedly been guilty as charged. But there is a lot more in the discussion besides catchy slogans ON EITHER SIDE. IF people had come in here and simply said "all lives matter" that is rather a "duh" statement. But I didn't see that either. I saw some people writing a bit more about why they were saying that, and I didn't see it equate into BLM sucks. What I am seeing is rather a group think of acceptable PC-ness, that if you don't phrase things a certain way then you can't possibly have a valid thought, are deluded, or probably brain damaged. Life and its inequalities are a lot more complex than slogans and simple solutions. There are many paths up the mountain, but to deny they are going up the mountain, to the same destination, is detrimental.

Regardless of the topic/thread, I hear your pain, Beth. ^^^ This. Again. I'm avoiding reading the actual posts because my blood pressure doesn't need to pop my eyeballs out, but of course I see the quotes and replies (true for several people). And sadly, the notion of "stopping" and "education" fails to take hold. This is a gentle nudge, and not at Fairre.

What you and Evah are saying is so important. And Scylla. And others. BLM as a group does not condone violence and crime. That others are subverting their movements is outrageous but effective. The world is full of racists, right-wing extremists, and they not only have the support of the POTUS but he inflames them. Their tactics are getting more "sophisticated" from the obvious cross burnings. Wilfully ignorant people will eat this up with a spoon. Wilfully ignorant people vote.

Again, that is confusing the group with the statement/belief. And I have strong beliefs why I will continue to say all lives matter, even if told to stop. There are a lot of injustices in the world. If someone is so hung up on political correctness and buzz words as to ignore what is being actually stated, I cannot help that. I write what I mean. If other liberals want to "take out" a relatively like-minded person for it, so be it.

Well said. And I do, as a layperson not a legal expert, understand that a lot of it is how the law is written. On the other hand, I know what I saw on that video of the murder. It was murder. The officer had training. That is also a technique that is not approved/allowed. It was obvious that the action went longer than after the suspect was "subdued." Perhaps Murder 3 is all they can get, but it still infuriates me. Murder 1, where there was planning involved, no I don't see that (and... perhaps there is some background knowledge we lack on that case, like past involvements between the two). But it was clear once he started, with Floyd's own words and actions and physical responses, and with the cries of the spectators... the murderer knew just what he was doing. Also, just to say it, the other cops who didn't pull the murderer off? For the love of god... I know why the spectators didn't jump in, fear of also being killed by armed thugs.

I believe that capitalizing All Lives Matter puts it into an official GROUP and not something I am talking about. I didn't read Paul that way either. I have zero idea what Paul's intents or innermost thoughts are. I read his words. Yes, it is a truism, all lives matter, and yet, it gets lost in the shuffle at times. When we break things up into smaller and smaller specialized causes, perhaps that might be an effective way to affect change, but it could also be the opposite. Working to equalize everyone... well, brings everyone up. And, yet again, I will say, This Is The Time For BLM attention. And no, I don't think looters = BLM.

Are you speaking of the GROUP All Lives Matter or the thought that all lives matter? There is a difference. I'm assuming a typo in your reply, that it should be "It did not come from good intentions" since you said "downplaying." I believe all lives matter. I am not downplaying that black lives matter. That would be a fallacious argument. I'm not doing that. I don't think everyone who says all lives matter is. It is insulting my intelligence to state or imply that I don't "get" that SOME people use ALM as a way to undermine.

Well... I think that part of my points were ignored in your reply. I did say that at this point in time the BLM house is on fire, and does deserve and need the attention. Funny you should mention breast cancer vs other cancers though because this thing DOES happen. There are a LOT of complaints in the research world that because breast cancer is more visible (because it is more common?) that it gets all the funding and that it is over funded while other, less "glamorous" cancer research is struggling because of all of the attention to breast cancer. They have a point. I think you are being guilty of "broad brushing" here by saying anyone who is of the belief and will stand by it by saying it that all lives matter are guilty of pure deflection. That's fallacious. That's pretending to know everyone's intent. As I am reading SOME of the people here, and myself included, that is rubbish. I think there are some people in this thread, and certainly in the world at large, who ARE using that (rather obvious) phrase of "all lives matter" to undermine social justice. There is a difference between ascribing to all lives matter and belonging to an organization All Lives Matter. Ultimately, alienating people who think and write slightly differently than the PC group is harmful. Us vs Them, when in fact it is Us vs Us you are talking about. To put me in a group of those who are deflecting is wrong. To put me into a group that thinks that blacks aren't racially targeted is wrong. To put me into a group that is oblivious to the ill intents of others who do use movements to undermine and deflect is wrong. I may not phrase things to your liking, but to denigrate them as "simply" this or that is actually shooting your own beliefs in your own foot.

While I believe that all lives matter, I am suspect of movements in general (groups of people are my worst nightmare, as is group think). I have no doubt that some of the people in All Lives Matter are up to no good. Not everyone falls for fallacious arguments though to be able to state that all lives matter. And I don't feel like dying on this hill; I'm being a bit pedantic. A lot of this goes to intent, and I've yet to see anyone who knows for certain what the intents of others are without being explicitly told. I am not naive to the evils of the world.

My ramblings above was sort of alluding to something like this. Right now, BLM should be getting the attention because its house is on fire, but all lives matter of course.

While I totally agree with what you said, it still infuriates me that the cop that murdered George Floyd in cold blood is getting an "alternative charge of manslaughter."

/me pussyfoots in without having read ALL of the thread, which is often a mistake. Also, I'm about to lose my liberal cred and will no doubt bee in the service of a knight, cuz I expect to get tackled. I agree with what I've read Paul saying. I also agree with what @Scylla Rhiadra and others have been saying and "liking." But I get Paul's point, and I'm reading in his intent (which I certainly do not KNOW, but am inferring through my own filters). All lives matter may be the whitest thing anyone has ever said, but... on face value (poor choice of words?) it is absolutely correct. I get where some see that as a way to downplay the BLM movement, and I know that some people use it exactly for that reason. I'm not stupid. But... all lives do matter. There are injustices all over the place. From my new vantage point of extreme poverty where once I enjoyed a six-figure income, I see so many injustices based not on race but on class. Before anyone jumps up and down on THAT statement, I'm aware that class and race often go hand in hand, but not always. Look at who is on the roster for food assistance, for example, and you'll find families of all colors, lots of poor whites in the states that want to curtail the safety nets, veterans, etc. Impoverished Lives Matter. So we could absolutely break these Lives up into subgroups, and that would ultimately dilute the purpose. Paul saying that focusing on people's differences undermines the focus on how we are all equal, TO ME is saying THAT-- that all the minority causes dilute the bigger picture. We should be focusing on ALL injustices and inequalities. However, at this point in time, with recent events glaring at us AGAIN, the BLM movement does have a specific purpose and NEED. It is a very visible time, whereas so much racism gets swept under the rug. This is the time to strike, metaphorically and perhaps literally. The police need policing. Like @Beth Macbain said though, through the story of her friend, you also cannot broad brush "the police." We'd be in a world of trouble without police. They do incredible work and I cannot even imagine doing what they do every day. I believe that some psychopaths get into law enforcement to be bullies, but I also believe there are a lot of incredibly brave people who want to serve the community who are police. All lives matter, including police. (Grudgingly, even politicians... and HR people.) That said, there are a lot of systemic problems and individual horror stories. The monster who murdered George Floyd (I refuse to say "killed" because that minimizes the intentional evil he did) while getting charged, is still only being charged with "oopsies" Murder 3. Our entire justice system, while still better than a lot of places, needs overhauling, on all levels. That's a whole nuther book. Sadly, I'm beginning to think that it will take many more George Floyds, back to back, on camera, and consistent upheaval before anything gets done. Again, look at the number of school shootings, and still nothing meaningful is being done about guns. The problem with the upheaval though is what we are already seeing. It scares people. It scares the people who can affect change. It starts being a self-fulfilling prophecy of "look at *those* people... *they* are violent and so deserve violence." I wish I had answers; I do not. I'll repeat what I said before and others have also said in different ways: The best thing I can do is not be racist. I can monitor myself for when it creeps up, and it will, because we ALL do it (sorry but that is my unPC belief). I can stop it when I can, when I see it happening. I can give time and money to organizations that can affect change.

BOOM! Mic drop

Hope you will enjoy the weirdness of things underwater then.

Another view I couldn't add to the above:

A DRAMATIC REENACTMENT! Quick FS snaps of What Actually Occurred to Me Today in SL!!! I was working on the underwater build. I was also playing around with the Buttonjar Bubble (which I love, they are so shiny and work so well). There will be a rezzer on the place somewhere. Anyway, I needed to go AFK, and I left hapless Seicher in her bubble and left SL running. This is the innocent situation, with IMPENDING DOOM soon to come! Par, the region owner was still there. And he's an oldbie. One thing you do NOT do around an oldbie is leave your avatar AFK for a couple of hours. I forgot. I returned to find this. A hamster tube! I was trapped! I had no recourse but to run the tube in my bubble! The shame. The horror. The. Man. Built. A. GD. Hamster. Habitat. And. Trapped. Me. In. It. Well played, Par, well played. PS Gentle reader, it is an absolute hoot. Par is under strict ORDERS not to remove it until absolutely necessary for the build.

I honestly didn't know how to respond to your post, and I sat with it a while, and I still don't know how to respond to it (via emoji responses!) other than to say: I agree, except where I don't want to. It is stupid and disingenuous to be surprised at any of this, the recent (albeit ongoing since ever) brutality or the backlash against it. However, the violence is also awful. I understand it (as much as I can). Is it necessary? I don't know. I wish it weren't. Time may tell, right now it is too close in for that to be determined. Ultimately what I can do is not be racist. I think we all are, a little, and we need to be vigilant about recognizing it in ourselves. All of us need to speak up when a friend or coworker or whoever makes a racist remark in front of us, if we can do it safely. These days, with people bringing guns into Wal-Mart... Give money to support organizations that are fighting racism. Again, nothing bugs me like "thoughts and prayers" and smugly feeling like we did our part by saying that. I had to chuckle at your use of white privilege, as I'm sitting here typing on a used computer that was a gift (a darned nice gift), I live in subsidized housing, get my income from SSDI and it is well below the poverty line. Boy, has that opened my eyes to a lot of the daily crap people deal with. But I get your point, and in many ways, yes, I've lived the white privilege.

I ♥LOVE♥ Petite Mort! (How are you associated? I thought someone else was the designer... and yes, this part isn't on topic but Scylla isn't looking.) And thank you for the BLM top and Tapestry. I'll be picking both up soon! So when I am out and about, as I said, I'd wear the tee, and I think the tapestry would go great on my houseboat, like maybe outside where it can be seen, next to my Cica Ghost art.

Sadly, to the question, "Are you showing support for BLM in SL?" the answer is no. That's not because I don't support it, or join in the continuing outrage of the blatant racism that is being fueled in part by the rhetoric coming from the top of the pile (the pile of ... ). Racism has plagued our country from the beginning and sorry folks, it has plagued every country on the globe in varying degrees at varying times. It took me days before I could watch what is essentially a snuff film of Floyd's death. I am disgusted the thug who committed the intentionally malicious murder is only being charged with Murder 3 (the last I heard). I'm not doing anything because I don't see people in SL. I'm rarely in public. I will probably wear a tee-shirt if I am. But right now I'm hiding out by working on a sim build. Something NEEDS to be done in RL, and so reflected in SL. But it isn't "thoughts and prayers" and feeling like by uttering that platitude that you've done something. We've been doing that to gun violence and look where that's gotten us. (Nowhere.) That video you share of "Before you call the cops" just... I weep just thinking about it. For my 10th rez day I thought I'd make the next 10 years different from my normal pale white brunette girl, and I created what I think is a rather stunning black avatar. Like you mentioned above, I wouldn't feel comfortable switching back over to her right now. There's no way I can claim to know what blacks inworld and in RL face 24/7 and to pretend otherwise just seems disrespectful. But I don't know. I have no idea how the black community would view that (and I realize there isn't one, homogeneous black community that speaks for everyone). Seems like the situation needs real action, but I don't know what that is or what I can do. Random acts of Liberal White Guilt probably aren't any of them.

Or don't include LMs.

Even better, when RandomStranger offers it in a foreign language that you don't speak (which sadly is anything but English)! I get this freakishly often. and Maddy replied: Right, the answer to Lil is a resounding "NO." For me the answer is, "Yes, obviously." Well, that keeps me off your list (that and probably more, like you wanting to get your hug and me being a tiny squashed fairy if you do). I do this routinely. I have never thought of it as ghosting, and that upsets me, as that really isn't my intent, but I *am* trying to hide with turning off my online status. I could come in as my alt to avoid everyone, but there's usually a downside to that, practical things like I want to go shopping and it is a pain to make a gift of everything, plus I'd forget to do that and then end up with stuff for my alt. Can't have that. I'm very shy, which few on the forums believe. If I show "online" to my short list someone WILL ping in with an IM. I like my friends. I will feel obligated to talk to them. I'll enjoy the conversation because they are my friends after all, but I do come inworld usually with a plan, not to just hang out. I basically give anyone I'm willing to add to my list a five minute lecture about what an absolutely horrible friend I am inworld. I don't mince words. I'm the worst. I rarely IM because I'm afraid I'm barging in on people, and my friends are much too nice to tell me to sod off. I then explain that me on their friends' list is rather like me just taking a token spot, or I'm there to class up the joint. [sarcasm] I tell them several times I totally understand if that isn't what they were wanting and no hard feelings if they decline. I sometimes feel like sending out yearly reminders of "I told you so" and "it is ok if you want to delete me now." At least no one can accuse me of false advertising. I'm so stealing this, Skell. I totally forget about calling cards (as I'll bet 90% of folks do). This IS a nice way to soften the blow, and it IS awkward to turn people down and I honestly feel awful when I do (unless it is like the random thing). I don't lose too many friends because I do keep my friends' list small, and the ones there have either been there for eleven years and they know I'm a lousy friend, or they are newer and have heard the spiel. I've made quick friends a few times (without the warning) and what gets on my last nerve is as I'm logging in, still not totally rezzed nor are my surroundings, to hear my message bell going off. Do that day after day after day and I'll say something kindly like "KNOCK IT OFF!" if that doesn't stop it then I'll flip off their ability to see me online. I don't have any jerks on my list. I'm happy with what I've got. I am happy to see a fellow grumpy misanthrope make a post about how NOT TO make friends.