for a squatting option, in some abandonned land

[BornToObey Sideshow]

Hello, everyone it will be a long post, and sorry for my english. To stay in Sl mean to have a home, and some can't afford it. They just can't. So after several years, some residents still don't have a home, but they have got knowledge.They still love SL. But, if you want to go further in building, you need a place, and not a sandbox only. Some private experiences, may be an only one which was knowed as Trilegy, by Dotcom Sumbula, have made available free lands for people, on a 15 days basic, everyone had to reclaim the place each 15 days. His group was more than 7000 peoples, and almost everyone here (75 %) was old in Sl, and share knowledge with 25 % newcomers. This has lead to new residents havinf the same SL experience as the new CEO of Sl : building and using it. And this is the salt of Sl : Meeting is great, but being able to build is better. Another thing is that, without a land, you can't use almost 70 % of the things sold in SL. So, without a house, you don't BUY/build/test 70 % of the objects which are done by the community. Even the free objects. A lot of people give up Sl, and goes away, just for not having a home. SL need money to live, and renting or selling land is the money. So , I don't ask free land for everyone, because it will be the death for SL ;-) But, if we look at abandonned lands, we see two differents lands : real empty lands, which can be solded, and parcels with a small 1 to 4 sqm inside it, which prevent it to be sold. these lands are the target of my proposal. These empty abandonned land are not good for the economy, because, a shop inside an empty land will not get as much trafic as in a full of people land. I had a squat, in Tuli, and because it was illegal, I didn't bring a lot of friends on it, but our "undercover" trafic was around 300. I lost it, trafic is now 4 . I know some friends have bought in the shops around. I also had a neighbor who build at the same 3700 meters as my squat, just to have company... He was renting his land. This is an exemple which can be reproduced. It just mean that , sometime we don't want neighbors, and sometime we want them. The most often, we want them, if they are not grieffers. So Sl have about 10 to 25 % of abandonned lands, in the mainland, depending on the islands. On these, may be 5 % are impossible to sold, because they have included small parcels, from people who speculate and try to block these lands. I just want to ask Linden Labs CEO and team to give us a new possibility to squat these 5 % ... Basically, to prevent the economical way to fail, and to protect people who rent their parcel, here could be some rules. -people who squat have no right at all, except to build, if they belong to the group. -people who squat have nor right to music or multimedia -people who squat can only squat on places that have been available for squatting by Governor Linden -people who squat can lost their squat, if they don't connect often (A week, 15 days, it's up to Linden to appreciate this) -people who squat will be warned by the group notice, if their land is sold, a week before. -People who squat MUST belong to a group . I suggest the trilegy group, as an hommage to Dotcom idea : I am not related to him , I just have talk him once for an auto-return issue, but the community he build, still active, make me think that Sl need this other way of having a land. Last thing to say, but: I have build a 156 meters long bridge, (from "dari's big box of junks"on the once empty place of Tuli, without building privilege, which was really a pain in the a.s. But I was may be the only one to get it on SL ! Just because it needed big land. I builded two villages at each side, more than 5000 prims, drag and drop, until the land was sold. I suppose the one who seen it had pity, or was just overbooked, but i had for a year some abandonned land with building privilege. It's just why I'm still on SL, and writing this. I would like to ask LL Ceo : hey, your fist post was all about building, and it was a real nice post,but just because you had a land. But what would have it been, without a land ? just trying new clothes ??? I really think that allowing some squatters will be a good business benefit for Sl, and it will NOT take out customers who pay for renting a land. The group option, the "no right option" is something a lot of people agree for, as I asked often in trilegy group. others prefers to rent, to be sure to not be ejected . This will make the frontier. But, if you really want to grow up, LL, you have to think for your loyal customers since years, the people who make the life in Sl, the people who still come in SL . Because, getting new customers, when loosing old customer is not a good option And because having some lands totally empty, because you can't sold them, because of inside locked parcels to get money on your back is a problem you have to deal whith. Speculations on these lands can also be beaten, if there is a squatter inside ;-) I forgot to talk about rules, because they seem obvious to me, but of course, squatters need to absolutely build only in the abandonned land, not doing this could get them ejected of the group which have the privilege to build. This is a proposal, so I will try to answer to all questions, and, of course, it's up to LL to listen to it I don't want SL to die and I really think it could boost SL, without costing a penny It's up to you to have a look at this proposal regards to everyone

[Dazler]

If you were paying thousands of Lindens each week for a plot of land, how would you feel if your neighbour was squatting for free?

[Peggy Paperdoll]

You're asking for free land without any obligations at all on the person wanting free land.  How long before everyone would get free land and pay nothing to LL?  A month?  6 months?  Second Life would disappear from the Internet if what you propose would ever be implimented.  You need to go back to economics school.

[BornToObey Sideshow]

@peggy paperdoll No, read it , sorry but blank spaces and return to line have not been taken in count. I don't asl free land with ANY obligations.... At the opposite, I want free lands only when it help LL to get their lands back, by giving them a way to fight about some who buy 2 sqm in a land, to try to get it at a lower price. And secondary, as I have say, ther is no right at all for squatting: you can get it for 2 weeks, or for 2 years, it just depend on when SL will be able to sold it. This make a HUGE difference with people renting a parcel.. Thanks for your answer, it make me explain better

[BornToObey Sideshow]

@Dazler: I wouldn't care at all, because my neighbour have no right, but, as long as he/she is there, it gave me traffic. When you pay thousands of L$ a week, in a total empty abandonned land except your parcel, what do you think ? I have, even if i'm not a payement registred, spent thousand of l$ i have earned, in the commercial business.. Think about it...

[Claireschen Hesten]

Trilegy was a great idea it was fantastic that someone who could afford to spend hundreds of dollars every month on full mainland sims to give the whole of SL 'free' land and get nothing in return did what they did. but for LL to allow squatting isn't in their best interest now newly abandoned land is going to auction quicker than ever and i'm quite sure people paying LL tens or hundreds of dollars every month to LL on tier aren't happy if LL allows squatters to use land on the same sim at no charge

[Peggy Paperdoll]

I get that part............I really do.  But once that gets started it will esculate to the point that it would be foolish for someone to buy the land when anyone can "squat" for free.  I agree LL could do better with the abandoned land scatter around the grid.  But basically giving it away (or loaning) to people so that those people can live for free and enjoy the same rights and benefits that the people who pay for what they enjoy is not the way.  Not only is it unfair, it would make owning land even more unattractive than it is for some people now.  Giving something away when your goal to sell it will never work.........people will take advantage of such a gesture every time.

 

Noble idea but very niave.

[BornToObey Sideshow]

@Clairehen hesten At the contrary, I'm quite sure that it is SL best interest to allow a little squatting, I don't sya to give everyone a free land, that surely will be SL death, but to allow a few people, as Trilegy have done, to get a free place, as long as they are online... Because it brings more people who stay in Sl. and because, anyway , these people would work for SL, building, buying, etc.. If someone who pay a thousand linden to sold bed, or furniture, can understand that I will not buy his 2000 l$ furniture if I don't have a place for it.. I have spent not a lot, but almost 10 000 l$ in the commercial furniture, and it was just to put it in my free squat... I had to earn these 10 000, so I had to be online, I made traffic, I was there, and not on others virtual world... I'm ok, it's quite ne, but I don't want a revolution, I just want it to start as a possibility, a limited possibility . You know how trilegy have help you to begin, it was difficult, but it give you a boost opportunity. Now, you're able to live alone, and to pay rent (I hope) I just ask and whish that SL and LL will understand it. It is in no way opposing the people who pay to the people who can't pay . It's just allowing people who can't pay to stay for a while, for free

[BornToObey Sideshow]

free squatters will never enjoy the same privileges : They can be fired at sight, or when the land is sold. This is not the same case for paying people. I mean really to not give squatter the same right: Basically, they can build, and stay as long as the land is not sold. For some, it will be 2 weeks, for others it could be 2 years. But you don't have a security. When you pay, you have that security, and believe me, it worth the price: I have lost dozen of furnitures, even the no copy I bought. On my last squat I was talking about, I have lost the 10 000 l$ in furniture that I have bought. It make the economy going better, because, I will have to rebuy it. (even if i'm not happy with the auto-return, lol) But, really, If I had no place to put it, I will never buy it again, I had bought it, just because I had a squat Ok, it didn't give SL and LL some money, but it give sellers some money, and with it , they can rent from LL It's not a direct sold, it's more: give us a free place, we will need to full it with furnitures, and you're paid because you rent the places for the furniture's sellers.. (sorry, this may not be english ) And , by the way, my proposal is not to give anyone a free land, remember...

[JeanneAnne]

What is the point of "owning land" (renting server space) in SL in the first place? I enjoy SL and it costs me absolutely nothing. I honestly don't get the point of paying for somthing that's free. When you log out you disappear and when you log back in ~poof~ there you are. So why does anyone need land or a house or skybox or whatever? To build? SL is already so over built that entire gorgeous sims are often completely deserted and the "homeless" person can roam them at will. Why add to the clutter when someone else can probably build nicer things anyway? And why does anyone need a vehicle when they can fly? I like SL but I just do not understand why anyone in their right mind would pay LL real money for virtual "property" that you don't actually own since you don't own the servers. The only point of this squatting idea is so you can build stuff. Build in a sandbox if you want to build stuff and then delete it, or just give it to some one with land if they want it. Or better yet, get over wanting to build more stuff & just dance, fly around, meet people & chat, listen to music, and explore what other people have already built. You can do all of this for free.

Jeanne

[Qie Niangao]

There are plenty of folks who have a home in SL and don't pay a penny to anybody, all perfectly legally.

It's easy.  Just have friends with land who want to let you use it for free.

Anyone who can't find friends like that, well, that's not much of a recommendation; it's not at all clear why Linden Lab should want to give them land for free either.

The same goes for builds.  If nobody with land wants to spend the prims to host a build, very likely the build isn't worth keeping rezzed outside a sandbox.

Oh, one other point: As much as we may enjoy our neighbors, many of us also greatly value the abandoned land in our regions and wish it could stay abandoned forever.  When the parcel's settings are correct (short auto-return interval, mostly), it's the lowest-lag neighbor possible.

[Chelsea Malibu]

Considering that far more people Don't have land than do, I see no value or reason to take the money of us who pay for land and provide for free land to those that dont.  Sounds a lot like a distrubtion of weatlth program to me.  Do you work for the Whitehouse? lol  

Hye, if you not using that money, can I?

[BornToObey Sideshow]

@jeanneAnne you make a very good point , and i hope LL will read it. You're absolutely right, a lot of users don't pay, and don't want to have land... But this is killing the whole Sl... It's just because you use Sl as I used it, 2 years ago may be, that is why Sl have still A 2% progress, after à 4 % lost... or the oppositen to be optimist I mean, SL is dying, not in numbers, but in traffic, in their economical way of thinking : they just try to stop hemoragy. They get 110 peoples in, for 108 people out... I'm pleased with the first economy report in One year and 6 months. But they obviously can do more This is not the succes that Sl universe desserve ! I would be glad to show you why having a place is really cool, and make the difference. But I can't : at least another exemple when you have no place to build. If I go public today, it's just because I want an option to be said, to be put on stage. I really don't care if LL will regard it, or not, because I'm sure that they will not give a dimme about it. I've already tried it with privete message. But, I would have say it ;-) ANd I really think that trilegy have made more for Sl, than any others sims, just allowing us to stay in Sl, because one day, you will understand that meeting is good, but not all, because Sl is all about being able to imagine your future

[Knowl Paine]

Excellent thread, I like what you have to say and how you have said it.

I would agree that Residents who do not have Land, may not share in the full experience that is SL.

Any action (or no action) by LL, against a land squatter, should be decided on a case by case basis.

A Merchant to Markets program could be started. Residents without land could be given resources and then have 90 days to design, develop and list their product at Market Place. Being productive and giving back to the SL Community would be required for membership in the program.

If a Resident does not list a product within 60 days, the land is forfeited back to LL, a 30 day re-signup waiting period would go into effect. After the 30 days any Resident could re-apply.

Slowly building up each person with time, resources and compassion is a good way to make all People, near equals.

 

 

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Chinese Proverb.

[Peggy Paperdoll]

Haha..........I was thinking more along the line of "Are you camped out on Wall Street using Goldman Sack's hot spot?"

 

About the same mentality.

[Peggy Paperdoll]

An SL bureacracy in the making.  :matte-motes-big-grin:

[BornToObey Sideshow]

@chelsea malibu An abandonned land cost to LL.... You alreday pay for it, in fact, you pay for empty lands near your's Ok, with some prims, the server have some more bandwith to give. But, 2000 prims are less heavy that one avatar with a 8OO prims on her and 4800 K of scripts...;-) Every abandonned land is set to a low profile server, so , people don't have the same service. And, Btw, your money is for what ? to sell things, right ? whdo you prefer that I spent my money to own a 125 prims boring house on a 512, or do you prefer that I Use that money to bought that fancy dress you have designed ????????????????? Answer with your heart ;-)

[Peggy Paperdoll]

I pay for a Premium membership and I sell nothing. 

 

Abandoned land is revenue lost for LL.........but sitting up a system that makes it less attractive for someone to purchase land by what you advocate will only insure that that revenue is forever lost.  Obviously you don't understand who business works.  Sims cannot be pushed off to different servers due to how sim space is created.......so you also don't understand how SL works either.

 

Edited to chang "see" to "sell" in my opening sentence.........freaking fingers just won't always type what what I'm thinking.  :matte-motes-big-grin:

[Tamara Artis]

LL won't be bothered with our ideas lol

I suggest you make some action, form a group inworld and connect squatters with landowners who would allow them to live/build/make traffic on their land.

Tryilegy was great, stil is, but because its a community! I met some amazing people there. In the last year almost every problem I had in SL was solved by someone from that group. I used that free land, I even managed to get permission to build a garden at the top of one of Dotcoms towers:p

It was funny while it lasted but get over it, grow up, make some lindens and rent a plot like all do:)

Edited because I forgot to say that if you don't rent, you won't get your "full SL experience"

[Chelsea Malibu]

Oh yeah, like I've already paid tax dollars, why not give you some? LMFAO

Here is what it used to be and what it should be today. Everyone pays to play and everyone gets a plot of land.  

Fact, people playing for free and looking for free land, are also using freebies. Most don't have payment info on file nor ever will.  Sorry, I just don't follow the cause for more free stuff.

[BornToObey Sideshow]

Ok, I may be don't understand anything in Sl. Just remember how Sl have evolve, since the beginning. At first, they were god, and removed what didn't please them (gambling) then they removed a part of the adult way, making it a Zindra mature thing, a guetto But , never , they think about the real thing, which is living in a virtual world. I'm sorry, but in RL, squat exists.. They don't want it in VWorld. They accept everything else, it's easier to shoot down an avatar, with a full of bloody textures, than to live for free Because you pay for it... And , after a while, this become boring: I mean , Sl is a great world, but just because the people have done it a great world ! They have never been paid, and all their creation belong to LL, which is against any moral copyright in the world... We don't ask for it. I just ask LL to give us the same rights as in RL... I don't want fight. I don't want that squatters have the same right as renters... I just want an opportunity for people to have a free land, with any of the condition LL will decide.

[Peggy Paperdoll]

You are just not understanding what SL is and why things are as they are.  Gambling is not allowed in SL due to real life laws the forbid online gambling in the US........SL is hosted from the US and therefore required to abide by the law of the US.  LL would love to have gambling in SL.........it's a huge money maker.  But it's against the law so it's not allowed.  It's pretty much the same with adult content in SL.  There are laws that require minors be "protected" from adult content.........those laws are not an option to ignore.  Again, sex and adult content are huge money makers and if it were not against any US then LL would not place the restrictions that they did when they created Zindra.

 

As in most everything you've said and advocated in this thread, you're thinking is way off base for any company........you don't tie up land (or anything else) that has the potential of bringing in income (your "squatter's rights" idea ties up land).  You don't ignore or disobey laws of the country that your business is located in.  You don't give away or loan products that you are intending to sell or rent to produce income for your company. 

 

Giving you the benefit of the doubt.........your well intended idea is simply niave. 

[Alyssa Xenobuilder]

Seriously the gambling ban was a cope out they could have easily made L$ just game money since game money is not real money its not gambling and continued to allow gambling for example wow World of Warcraft. Wow is just game money. Not that it would stop gambling. It just would have made L$ buyers and sellers and gambling could have stayed but thats a different thread all together. I don't even want to get started with what would actually cure the SL econ for users and SL alike because it would fall on closed ears.  As for the law thing you are abosolutlely right you don't break the laws your company is in.  But you also don't choose what laws you will obey and which ones you won't.  IE copywright laws if i rent a car from Joe Bob and i make it into a miillion dollar car its still bobs car but its my design and parts on bobs car therefore if bob sells his car he must give me credit for the design. ie this was done by etc etc on my car. He does not own my design. but everything made is owned by LL so thats a pointless arguement. Sorry if this was off topic and rather long.

[Peggy Paperdoll]

You need to put a little research into what you are saying about gambling in SL (or, at least, put apply a little common sense).  Yes, LL does state that the linden money ($L) are tokens and not connected to any real money of any country.  However, the game tokens can be exchanged for real money by cashing out via a couple methods.  That ability is what has pushed the SL economy to where it is now (and where it was a couple years ago).....without exchanging $L for real money SL would have no economy at all.  You would not be able to make money, and LL would go broke.  That very fact that one can cash out $L for real $ makes the linden dollar real currency (dispite what LL claims in the ToS).  Linden Lab knows very well that since the $L has the potential to become real $ that it is real money in the eyes of the law...........and winnings from online gambling can be exchanged for real money.  They would lose in any court battle in this country (the US).  They banned gambling.  Not for any other reason than they had to ban it.....the Federal Courts of the US would have shut them down and probably fined them to oblivion (and possibly put someone(s) in prison).

 

Your example is about intellectual property rights, not copyrights.  Again you need to do some digging.......or apply some common sense.  LL does observe the creators' intellectual property rights in SL.  Copyright infringement is treated seriously too.  However, it's not the responsibilty of the provider of the platform where any violation of either of these rights migh occur.......it's the responsibility of the person owning either of those rights.  DMCA is the world wide method for dealing with IP rights......properly file one and LL will take the property in question down.  Then it's out of their hands and into the people involved (the person making the claim and the person being claimed against).  A real life court of law is where any enforcement occurs.  Not in SL.........and LL has no athority to do anything more than what is required in the laws concerning the DMCA.

 

You're unhappy because I can agree with allowing someone to squat?  Go ahead and disagree.........but don't try to counter something I said with untruths.  You don't like the way LL operates...........why the heck are you sticking around?  I don't agree with everything they do (the recent merging of the grids being one big thing I disagree with) but enough of what they do do I don't have many issues with..........perhaps because I tend to look at whatever LL does from their eyes.  Not mine.  When (or if) LL goes over what I think is acceptable, I'm gone.  No fuss, no rant on a forum, no justifying my dissatisfaction with half or total untruths..........just uninstall any veiwer, delete any shortcut to any LL webpage and move on.  I know no one will care one way or another................no false sense of importance on my part.  One of a few millions who have created an account.......that's all.

 

[BornToObey Sideshow]

Peggy, when you say "You don't give away or loan products that you are intending to sell or rent to produce income for your company. " LL give for free an access and some clothes, and without this and the freebies, how many resident will not have come and stay ? and after that only, take an account or buy things... ? The free gift for new people is a good way of advertising, for company who sold clothes and others. the "midnight mania" or others things are just the same. Again, I don't want squatting "Rights", I suggest a squatting option. This could be a good way to keep some residents in world. I may be naive. But what does it cost too just give it a try ??? I really believe it will bring more benefits for SL and LL than it will cost. because, you also need to remember that every people who give up and leave Second life COST for life: all their inventory, account, remain on the servers. how many millions of people, since the beginning ? LL need to find a way to make people stay, and stay for hours. A squatting option could be a way to keep some old users, for the benefit of everyone.