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for a squatting option, in some abandonned land


BornToObey Sideshow
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LL's biggest profit producer that they provide is land..........and that land is what generates the income for SL to exist.  It's about server space........that's what they are selling.  Clothing, and prim items bring LL next to nothing in profits.  It's land........the recurring income in real dollars.  Something that sells in-world or Marketplace that costs $L250 is $1.00 US..........a one time hit.  That measly 1024 meter plot of land brings in $5.00 US per month........as long as the land is kept to an active Premium member.  What do you think any business that plans on staying in business is going to place the most value on?  That one time $1.00 or that recurring $5.00?  LL gives lots of stuff away......a pretty nice starter avatar, some pretty nice clothes to dress that avatar with, and a means for every account (basic or premium) to earn the in-world currency to "share in the wealth".  Some of the things LL gives you, you have to put some effort in yourself to realize the benefit.  Owning mainland is one such "gift"............you create or upgrade your account to premium you can get (100% free) a Linden Home.  Or you can simply purchase mainland and get the gift of your first 512 meters tier free.  You also recieve $L300 per week (a little over $5.00 per month if cashed out).  They that because you are putting some effort into your benefit yourself (paying a membership fee).  It's a mutually agreed upon arrangement.......you get something, LL gets something.

 

Now, what you are saying is that LL should now also provide some benefit to accounts who don't have any mutually agreed upon arrangement....LL gets nothing, you get everthing.  It doesn't work that way......it won't work that way.  It's more economical for LL to allow the land (server space) to sit empty, not generating any income than to allow someone to build and set up "home" (even temporarily).  The squatter will never have an incentive to stop squatting as long as he/she can just move to the next abandoned parcel and set up "home" again.  The purpose of land in SL is to provide income for LL.  Not to just keep it looking occuppied.  If you want to have a home on mainland, then you have to put some effort into obtaining that land.............such as buying it (requires a premium membership) or renting (does not require a premium membership).  Just parking your stuff without giving back to LL for providing that place is both wrong and unfair.  You are saying "it's wasted by just sitting there"  No, it's wasted if LL allows someone to inhabit it for free when they could sell it instead.  Once squatting is allowed, it won't be long before every plot is abandoned and everyone squats.....and the base for SL to exist is gone.  Everyone loses.

 

I believe Chelsea jokingly said it sounds like redistribution of wealth to her........it's worse than that.  It's gimme, I deserve it and I won't pay for it.  Someone always finds some stupid argument to justify their demand for a hand out.  Go to school or take some classes on business.  Your idea might be noble but it is niave..........and continuing to argue for it is getting to the stupid point.

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The only problem with business is that it is nothing personal, it's just business.

I support free accounts in principle and with principal.

There are several factors that create an imbalance in opportunity in SL. Discussing them here would only create a distraction from the OP's thread.

We figure out how to make it profitable, if it must be.

A possible group of Residents say they could do more if they had more. Maybe LL should call their bluff?

 

   

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You seem to be confusing what LL offers and what users offer.

LL offers a free account, yes; and a few free starter avis. Free gifts, Midnight Mania, lucky chairs, etc. are offered by users. And yes, these items are offered as incentives for group members or as advertising for the business. But LL does not offer these things.

I don't see "squatting" as a good option. As others have said, it will encourage those who own land to give it up, and start squatting as well. Eventually, no one buys land, everyone squats for free, LL doesn't earn anything and closes SL entirely. After all, if THAT person can squat over there for free, why can't I?

If you make squatting an "option," to whom is that option available? Everyone? A select few? How do you choose the select few? How do you decided what they can rez? Anything? You'd lag out the grid! Sure, people would have a reason to buy things. And maybe they'd buy $L, and spend those $L inworld buying houses, and furniture, and decor for the land they're squatting on. But that doesn't help LL as much as people buying land. It's not cost effective. Having abandoned land sit empty is more cost effective than giving up revenue from people buying land to live on. And of course, it's not "fair" to people who do spend a lot of money on land to have their neighbors set up for free. (Thus encouraging the "if they get it for free, why shouldn't I?" mentality that would likely lead to more and more people abandoning land, stopping payments for it, and trying to squat for free.)

It's a good theory, but an idealistic one. Nothing good comes for free. There's always a catch.


BornToObey Sideshow wrote:

in RL, squat exists....... I just ask LL to give us the same rights as in RL...

 

Squatting is not a right in RL. It's illegal. Squatters do exist, but they don't exist within the bounds of the law. If they are found, they can and will be forced to leave and in some cases arrested. This idea is faulty at it's base.

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Sorry, but I think this is a terrible idea. Peggy's already explained why very well, so I'll just add that I have no desire to have squatters as neighbors...simply because they have made no financial investment. Now you might argue that their "investment" is the desire to keep their handout, but how does that help LL? Are these people ever going to be motivated to buy land when they can have it for free? 

The simple answer is, if you want some land, get a job in world and earn the lindens to cover your rent. (Although honestly I think that if someone can afford a computer and Internet connection, they can probably come up with the means to rent or own land....if they're not given a free alternative.)

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I still don't see anyone addressing the real issue, which goes beyond this "squatting" proposal, which I see as being rather moot when the real question is why anyone in their right mind would pay real US dollars to rent server space belonging to a for profit corporation, and then call doing so "owing (virtual) land," and doing so when access to much of the virtual "land" and other aspects of sl are available for free. Is this not madness?

Jeanne

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Qie Niangao wrote:


I still don't see anyone addressing the real issue...

Nobody is addressing that because it's silly.  It's equivalent to asking why anybody would pay to see a movie when they could see the trailers for free -- and then declaring that all moviegoing is madness.

No Qie. Your's is a stawman argument. The real analogy would be to ask why anyone would pay to see a movie when they could watch the entire movie for free. The madness is paying for something that others enjoy for free. I enjoy SL and haven't payed a cent for doing so beyond the electricity to run my computer. When I see other paying large sums of real money for doing what I do for nothing, I have to question the logic of that. To my mind, paying for SL, just so you can pretend to "own" something that isn't even real, when LL allows free accounts, is just plain stupid. Or maybe I'm missing something. I can't for the life of me imagine what it might be I'm missing, though. Would I be having any more fun in SL if I had to worry about paying tier? I don't think so. What is "silly," Qie, is paying for something when you can have it for free.

Jeanne

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Simply put, because I like to have the land...it's what *I* enjoy. I'm not sure why it disturbs you so much that a lot of us (who, as a side note, happen to be financially supporting the SL that *you* enjoy), spend money on it .

As to addressing the real issue...the issue/topic for this thread is "squatting", so I think we were addressing the real issue.

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First, thanks everyone for your answers. as english is not my native language, it's sometime difficult to explain, and I don't want to argument in vain. I understand your replies, this will be certainly my last answer, but I can't leave without being sure that you had really understand what could be that option. - I don't want ALL abandonned land to be squatted, of course, but only the one's Linden Labs can't sell. For exemple, a fragmented land which is abandonned, and belong to a Linden, and not the governor, since 2007. 11800 prims . an empty space, surrounded by a lot of abandonned more recently parcels. Are the new abandonned parcels related to a lack of traffic ? I don't know, but the question can be asked. - you may not have tried to get a Land in trilegy, and it's difficult to explain, but the fact it that it was very difficult to get one, but it made me having my first house and it made me after that renting a house for a year, just because i had experimented what it is to be at home, and because I had full privileges on it( music, video, etc). It took me 4 years to get a free house, and only 8 months in it to decide to rent one. Am I alone in that case ? So, I don't think the argument which say "everyone who pay for a land will go to squat" is OK. It is really wrong. But If you have not live it, I understand that you may be afraid of this, as you all pay for your land. Again, just have in mind that it is not all abandonned land, it's only the ones which are impossible to sold for Linden Labs. -I was wrong when talking about squatting in RL and wanting SL to give us the same thing : Homeless should have been a better translation. Not all homeless are given a solution in Rl, only a few, the ones who fight for it, who really want it. May be the same could exist in SL. It was a bad explanation from me, it still is , ;-) sorry . -Of course, I know that Linden Lab live first from renting and selling lands. It is Why I made this proposal, because some abandonned parcels are preventing LL to sold the surrounding parcels. A lot of people speculate on the back of LL, to get down the price of mainland, by making them unsoldable. May be my squatting option could help LL in these cases. Sorry to have been that long, I will try to shut my big mouth . Thanks for viewing and sharing your ideas and thinkings.

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I understand that you get pleasure from the part of SL that doesn't involve land ownership, and that's cool.  It's possible to build in sandboxes and go around and look at everything everybody else has built or is doing on their land, and to dress up an avatar and socialize.
But to some of us, all that would be no substitute at all for building things on our own "land" and defining our own virtual space as we imagine it, and redefining it all over again when we please.  Some of us would never login again if we couldn't do that.
You don't have to agree with that.  People find enjoyment in different things in both SL and RL.  For example, I have never understood the point of watching sporting events: the score is going to be the same whether I watch or not.  But I have to accept that there are people who not only spend the time to watch sports but will actually pay good money for tickets.
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Sylvia Tamalyn wrote:

Simply put, because I like to have the land...it's what *I* enjoy...

Okay Sylvia, thanks, and you too for your response in post #35 Qie. I guess that the only response that makes sense, to my query about why pay for something that's free, is because you enjoy doing so, so you can build stuff or have privacy, etc. That's fine with me. I'm not disturbed about it. Actually, I wouldn't mind paying a modest fee for my account to LL, so long as everyone had to, and if by doing so the $L was eliminated along with "private property." But under LL's current business model, as soon as SL costs me a cent of real money, I'm out. It's been fun, and all, but... sheesh! I guess we're all free to set our own priorities!

Jeanne

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1) gambling- common sense really heres some common sense  any game money in any game can be cashed out for real money and any game game can contain gambling SL rules say you cant bet on real life sporting events so if i am in a game of WOW and i bet 10000g 50$ cash out value on a sports team with someone that is gambling but its not real money because you dont buy gold from wow making them exempt from proscution but makes inviduals responable  therefore my staement was true a cope out.

2)as for where the economy is now  people complaining and  LL breaking a little above even in profits don't know don't care really Wow has a really great economy without the need for selling game currency as well as some other games. As for making money in sl it falls down to the 1% 99% rule hopefully i dont need to explain that. Its a game after all played for enjoyment why worry so much unless you wanna be the next chung lady whatever her name is once again dont know dont care.

3)now for the the copyrights/ intellectual property rights your right dont know, don't care. My example was to set an example about the rule as interpurted by some and probablay was not entirely accurate.

"You're unhappy because I can agree with allowing someone to squat?  Go ahead and disagree.........but don't try to counter something I said with untruths.  You don't like the way LL operates...........why the heck are you sticking around?  I don't agree with everything they do (the recent merging of the grids being one big thing I disagree with) but enough of what they do do I don't have many issues with..........perhaps because I tend to look at whatever LL does from their eyes.  Not mine.  When (or if) LL goes over what I think is acceptable, I'm gone.  No fuss, no rant on a forum, no justifying my dissatisfaction with half or total untruths..........just uninstall any veiwer, delete any shortcut to any LL webpage and move on.  I know no one will care one way or another................no false sense of importance on my part.  One of a few millions who have created an account.......that's all." - Peggy Paperdoll

 

4) now you need to use your common sense I never said I was unhappy about anything. now lets not be a hypocrite and to quote you  "don't try to counter something I said with untruths." As for what LL does whats my line don't know don't care at any time they and me can just got our seperate ways. Squat or not too squat will prolly not happen via LL but maybe a new person can start it over again.

 

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Ok im now confused

"I wouldn't mind paying a modest fee for my account to LL, so long as everyone had to, and if by doing so the $L was eliminated along with "private property." But under LL's current business model, as soon as SL costs me a cent of real money, I'm out. It's been fun, and all, but... sheesh! I guess we're all free to set our own priorities!"-  Jeanne Anne

 under curreent the business model isnt that what tier fees are a modest fee for your account you just pick how much you wanna pay based on the tier IE this month i wanna pay LL $300 let me dump every thing and pay $75 this next month all the way to zero

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If you get good at building - which you can do without owning land by using sandboxes - you can sell things on the marketplace and make enough money to rent land.

But you seem to think you deserve free land because ...??? I failed to find a good reason.

 

If there is a small ad-farm chunk in the middle of a parcel I wanted, I would file a dupport ticket and ask that it be merged. it's not a problem.

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BornToObey Sideshow wrote:

@peggy paperdoll No, read it , sorry but blank spaces and return to line have not been taken in count. I don't asl free land with ANY obligations.... At the opposite,
I want free lands only when it help LL to get their lands back, by giving them a way to fight about some who buy 2 sqm in a land, to try to get it at a lower price.
And secondary, as I have say, ther is no right at all for squatting: you can get it for 2 weeks, or for 2 years, it just depend on when SL will be able to sold it. This make a HUGE difference with people renting a parcel.. Thanks for your answer, it make me explain better

LL can take those tiny parcels whenever it wants to ... squatters are not needed.

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"LL can take those tiny parcels whenever it wants to ... squatters are not needed."

I'm really not sure , I just took an exemple on my last post, of a land , empty and fragmented since 2007, which is no more on Governor list, but abandonned,on a Linden name, and not to sold.

 Everything around, except 1 parcel , is abandonned under governor property since 1 year, 6 months, etc., This mean that these lands have been sold, then abandonned again.  

A big empty parcel, fragmented , is inside. It means no traffic. 

Is it the reason ? 

And is it because there is empty small empty property inside that this big fragmented parcel can't be sold ???

I believe it.

 

I believe that speculation on lands have made Linden Labs unable to unify it, for this case. I really hope that limited squats on only some places can help LL in these situations, with strong rules, and not all privileges. And bring more traffic, more customers (yes, even the free account buy, because they work on sl !)

 Linden lab have a lot of troubles not with squatters, but with people who try to cut down the price of lands, by owning a small sqm inside, or making long trenches around, etc.. You can look in the blogs here, it's not a news.

I'm really sure that some Linden's staff who deal with abandonned lands would/could understand what I mean.

 

And squatters could help LL, the question is : How ? I don't have the answer. It's not easy , of course, as it is not giving the right to squat everywhere, far from it..

Regards

 

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@nefertiti :--> "If you get good at building - which you can do without owning land by using sandboxes - you can sell things on the marketplace and make enough money to rent land."

 

You make a very good point... Why and when did I begin to build ?: The day I had a house for free in trilegy. Because I wanted for the first time  to build it, following a 200 prims rules, etc., because I had a place too put it on the ground !

Before that, even the free houses I get were useless..

Try to live in a sandbox...

I'm not asking a squatting option for me, I'm asking it to help SL, to Help olds or new users, to get more people to stay in SL, and to give a push to the builders in SL..

for you and all : I talk to much, so for details, discussions, etc, IM me in SL..

 

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JeanneAnne wrote:


Qie Niangao wrote:


I still don't see anyone addressing the real issue...

Nobody is addressing that because it's silly.  It's equivalent to asking why anybody would pay to see a movie when they could see the trailers for free -- and then declaring that all moviegoing is madness.

No Qie. Your's is a stawman argument. The real analogy would be to ask why anyone would pay to see a movie when they could watch the entire movie for free.

 

Your analogy does not go far enough to describe the difference between the two movie watching experiences.  You only mention that one movie watching experience is free, and that the other movie watching experience is a paid one.

To use you movie analogy to accurately reflect the difference between those that pay to rent server space and those that don't, you need to include the differences between the two experiences.  Just "watching the movie" is not the whole equation. 

Movie analogy: 

It's the difference between watch the movie in your own specially created home studio, with your best friends invited, and your own background music, and your own special food and drinks being offered around.  It's you controlling what time the movie starts, and how often to replay it, sitting in the comfort of your favorite chair and surrounded by the decor and furnishings that you decided upon.   The movie is played on the best equipment and has the high quality big theater sound system.  Your guests are movie fans, and become quiet as the film starts, as none of them would dream of talking while watching the movie.  It's only adults watching, as this movie is one that everyone wants to focus on, children are all elsewhere being cared for by babysitters. 

Versus:  You going to watch a free movie at a public park at night, and being bitten by mosquitoes, and sweltering in the night heat.  The projector stops working, and the picture is grainy because the screen is an old public one and not maintained.  While at the free out-door movie you have to sit on the ground, and now you have a leg cramp.  There's some obnoxious family sitting behind you who's child has been throwing little tiny pebbles at you for the last hour.  You asked the kid to stop, but he doesn't, and his family ignores the whole situation.  You think about getting up and moving to a different spot, but dammit, you were here first!   *sigh*  You can hardly hear the movie, over the constant talking from the gaggle of fellow-free movie goers.  Argh! 

It's the level of control that someone has over their experience, which makes paying for server space, a priority for many in SL

It's the quality of the experiences that are the deciding factor.  Just like in RL, some things can be gotten "for free", but for those that want a particular level or quality experience...free just does not provide that.     I can go to the homeless shelter in RL and get a free meal.  But, it won't be a superb special dining experience. 

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Celestiall Nightfire wrote:


JeanneAnne wrote:


Qie Niangao wrote:


I still don't see anyone addressing the real issue...

Nobody is addressing that because it's silly.  It's equivalent to asking why anybody would pay to see a movie when they could see the trailers for free -- and then declaring that all moviegoing is madness.

No Qie. Your's is a stawman argument. The real analogy would be to ask why anyone would pay to see a movie when they could watch the entire movie for free.

 

Your analogy does not go far enough to describe the difference between the two movie watching experiences.  You only mention that one movie watching experience is free, and that the other movie watching experience is a paid one.

To use you movie analogy to accurately reflect the difference between those that pay to rent server space and those that don't, you need to include the differences between the two experiences.  Just "watching the movie" is not the whole equation. 

Movie analogy:
 

It's the difference between watch the movie in your own specially created home studio, with your best friends invited, and your own background music, and your own special food and drinks being offered around.  It's you controlling what time the movie starts, and how often to replay it, sitting in the comfort of your favorite chair and surrounded by the decor and furnishings that you decided upon.   The movie is played on the best equipment and has the high quality big theater sound system.  Your guests are movie fans, and become quiet as the film starts, as none of them would dream of talking while watching the movie.  It's only adults watching, as this movie is one that everyone wants to focus on, children are all elsewhere being cared for by babysitters. 

Versus
:  You going to watch a free movie at a public park at night, and being bitten by mosquitoes, and sweltering in the night heat.  The projector stops working, and the picture is grainy because the screen is an old public one and not maintained.  While at the free out-door movie you have to sit on the ground, and now you have a leg cramp.  There's some obnoxious family sitting behind you who's child has been throwing little tiny pebbles at you for the last hour.  You asked the kid to stop, but he doesn't, and his family ignores the whole situation.  You think about getting up and moving to a different spot, but dammit, you were here first!   *sigh*  You can hardly hear the movie, over the constant talking from the gaggle of fellow-free movie goers.  Argh! 

It's the level of control that someone has over their experience, which makes paying for server space, a priority for many in SL

It's the quality of the experiences that are the deciding factor.  Just like in RL, some things can be gotten "for free", but for those that want a particular level or quality experience...free just does not provide that.     I can go to the homeless shelter in RL and get a free meal.  But, it won't be a superb special dining experience. 

The only substantial advantage to having a paid account that I can see is that you can "own land" (rent server space) in order to have a place to park the stuff you build. It isn't that you can't build stuff with a free account, it's just that you can't put it anywhere without the permission of a "land owner." Contrary to what you claim, the sound quality isn't any better with a paid account, the social aspect of SL is no different, and the quality of experience isn't any better. So it all boils down to building. Yet, you can't build much with a 117 prim limit, so if you want to build anything very elaborate, or keep it,  you must pay to rent more & more server space from LL. If you are so into keeping the stuff you build, and have the disposable income for this, then fine! Go ahead & serve the corporate bottom line. Just don't expect me, or the vast majority of SL residents, to fall for this.

Jeanne

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Well, there's been a long struggle with finding additional ways (besides land ownership) to enrich Premium membership without alienating the free-to-play folks, and it's been pretty unsuccessful.  

Paying members do get somewhat better support, but that's a constant battle: basic members are forever arguing that they should get more support, and LL caves a bit every so often, so the distinction fades, and support quality erodes for everybody, diluted as it is over so many support requests from so many users.  They've tried at least a couple of different outsourcing vendors and (it seems) several models for escalating support from simple frontline question-answering up to the attention of senior Lindens.  None of it works very well.

Now we get some kind of content gift... not sure how often they're supposed to happen, and to be honest, I never rezzed the one I picked up from the one time I know it was available.  It may be wondrous, for all I know.

Returning to land ownership (which of course need not involve Premium membership if the land is owned through an Estate), you mentioned "sound quality" and that reminds me that land ownership comes with other control of the land than just what's built on it -- including control of the audio stream.  Also, of course, parcel media, all the access control and other parcel permission options, parcel naming and search content, and terrain shaping... all of which is about being able to exercise more control over the experience for oneself and one's guests.

I think we're not talking about business in this thread, but it goes without saying that this is all necessary for running a serious in-world business; for the kind of content that interests many of us, a Marketplace store is somewhere between insufficient and irrelevant.

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Qie Niangao wrote:

... you mentioned "sound quality" and that reminds me that land ownership comes with other control of the land than just what's built on it -- including control of the audio stream.


The inworld sound quality is pretty bad - altho, surprisingly, it seems to have improved in the past ten days or so. All the best SL DJs stream thru Shoutcast & I listen to them on Winamp, with the inworld sound turned off. Sometimes I'll turn the inworld sound on when the DJ isn't streaming over the internet, just to hear what they're playing (which is how I know that sound quality seems to have recently improved) but usually I'll go back to listening to a favorite DJ's 24/7 stream or my own playlist. Since the dance animations aren't specific to the tempo or time signatures of the music, I can be dancing in a club and listening to other music than what's being played there. I wonder if DJs realize how much this goes on? I'm mainly in the club for the convo & socializing anyway.

As for support, I understand that LL recently laid off 30% of their staff. Wouldn't surprise me that most of those laid off were support staff. I just don't expect any support from LL, & so never file tickets or ARs with them. What's the point?

Since I don't have any $L besides what ppl give me or I get filling out surveys or from those chairs w/ letters on them, etc., I mostly shop for freebies. I get stuff both from inworld stores & from the browser marketplace, probably about equally. Actually, most of the nice stuff I have in my inv has been given to me by friends cleaning out their inv, or just thru sheer generosity. I've never felt like my SL experience has been compromised by the lack of nice stuff. If anything, my inv is too full.

Jeanne

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JeanneAnne wrote:


The only substantial advantage to having a paid account that I can see is that you can "own land" (rent server space) in order to have a place to park the stuff you build. It isn't that you can't build stuff with a free account, it's just that you can't put it anywhere without the permission of a "land owner." Contrary to what you claim, the sound quality isn't any better with a paid account, the social aspect of SL is no different, and the quality of experience isn't any better. So it all boils down to building. Yet, you can't build much with a 117 prim limit, so if you want to build anything very elaborate, or keep it,  you must pay to rent more & more server space from LL. If you are so into keeping the stuff you build, and have the disposable income for this, then fine! Go ahead & serve the corporate bottom line. Just don't expect me, or the vast majority of SL residents, to fall for this.


It's clear that do not understand the difference between someone not renting server space and wandering around SL building in sandboxes....and someone who owns land on a private estate.   Since you have no point of reference, then sure...it makes no difference to you.  

I personally don't care if you choose to use SL for free or rent server space, so not sure why you added that last line.  No one is asking you to "fall" for something.  You either see value in a product, or you don't.  I don't care either way.

But, contrary to your views, many in SL do want to have that high level of control over their SL experience, and do see value in renting server space to be able to control that experience to their specifications. 

 

(Also, the reference to "sound" was part of the movie watching analogy that I made.  That you've also failed to understand that for what it was..says...that you're more interested in arguing than understanding.) 

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may be I don't understand every comments, but it seem that you all agree, in differents manners.

- if an 'official' squatter , with no right at all, don't have music or videos,it's a pity for him/her, so it will lead him/her to buy a land.

-but he/her have  the way to build. In fact, I'm just asking for this temporary right, the rezz ability. This will make the difference between a free member, who just can buy clothes, and a free member which will be interested in building. And stay at home, in SL.

Last thing, for people who think I have made this thread for me..

No, it's wrong, I have already a new squat. with a part rezzing enable... all belonging to Lindens labs.

I start this thread for the people, not for me.! I have a lot to loose in going public

It's the people inside the virtual world who build SL. Not the parcels renters or sellers.

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Squatters have no land rights ... period. Squatters don't contribute in any meaningful way, unless you count the drama they create by being someplace they don't belong, but rather consume region resources they don't pay for. Squatters want something for nothing and that hurts everyone elses business who pays for their land and the benefits and conveniences that come with ownership. SL is free to play if you can't afford premium membership (comes with a free Linden home) or land, and the simple truth is no one "needs" a home to be in SL; that's just a convenient excuse to lobby for free land. Just like RL no one is entitled to anything for free.

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