for a squatting option, in some abandonned land

[JeanneAnne]

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

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---

I don't need to imagine it, we're actually improving, though not by the methods espoused by either of your examples.

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I hope you're right Madelaine. The Occupy Wall Street movement gives me hope. As for SL, I'm too new to assess whether or not it's improved in terms of equality. Even if it has, tho, it still has a loooooooooong way to go. I hope that we can work together on further progress in this direction.

Happy Halloween!!

Jeanne

[Celestiall Nightfire]

---

JeanneAnne wrote:

My issue is with Corporatism.

---

Without the Corporate entity of LL there would be no Second Life.   Without the Venture Capitalists who invested in LL at the onset, there would be no SL.  Without the profits that SL generates, there will be no SL in the future.   

Do you think that complex computer code like that which creates SL grew free on it's own?  Do think someone waved a magic wand and this all sprang into existence on the internet without big-time money being invested? 

Do you know that even the code that the Open Sims run on, came from LL?  That code was released to the public.  Without that initial public release of the basic SL architecture none of the OS grid, Blue Mars, and SL knock-offs would even exist.

None of this happens without money.   Where do you think that money comes from to fund ventures like SL?   Where do you think the money comes from to fund any internet based venture?     Venture Capital is where it comes from.   People looking for a possible start-up to invest in, and they are willing to take a chance on putting up *their* money for return.  It's a risk, and thank goodness there are people willing to do this, as most of the world's innovative companies and ideas get funded this way. 

Corporations are part of that process.   You wrote a word like "Corporatism" without having a clue as to what it is, or how it benefits you, me and the rest of our society.  

Pretty much everything that you have in your modern life, comes from someone else creating, inventing, and investing their time, energy and money.  Or they use the money of others to further their inventions.   

I saw where Pamela has asked you a question that has gone unanswered.   I'd like to ask a few of my own.

What have *you* contributed to society?    You ever hire anyone?    Have you provided your fellow man with a job?  Have you done anything, to provide your fellow man, with the means by which they may support themselves financially?  

Because that's what businesses do.   That's what Corporations do.   In RL I receive a paycheck that comes from a large global Corporation.   That Corporation sell products.  People buy the products.  Within this process, are millions of other people who also get paid, and make their living through the products that this Corporate entity provides. 

So, I'll second Pamela's question?   Do you work for wages?   Are you employed?    Do, you support yourself financially?     

[Pamela Galli]

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Celestiall Nightfire wrote:

---

So, I'll second Pamela's question?   Do you work for wages?   Are you employed?    Do, you support yourself financially?     

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I have asked it enough times without any response I think I can guess the answer. :smileyvery-happy:

 

And to be clear, I am asking if she contributes anything of value that she gets any kind of compensation for:  eg does housework in exchange for the room and board someone supplies her. (Because as she has said, she is not averse to accepting the Lindens that someone else has worked for.)

[JeanneAnne]

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Celestiall Nightfire wrote:

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So, I'll second Pamela's question?   Do you work for wages?   Are you employed?    Do, you support yourself financially?     

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Please review the Second Life "Community Standards," specifically items #2. & #4.. Thank you!

http://secondlife.com/corporate/cs.php

Jeanne

[Pamela Galli]

LOL you are a piece of work, aren't you?

If you come into this forum and tell me that I am "greedy" because I expect to be paid for my work, it is reasonable -- and certainly in no way a violation of TOS --  to inquire whether you expect to be paid for yours -- if you do work at all.

Now, which is it?

 

 

[JeanneAnne]

Success! Added 'Pamela Galli' to ignore list.

[Pamela Galli]

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JeanneAnne wrote:

Success! Added 'Pamela Galli' to ignore list.

---

 

If that's the kind of thing you claim as a success on your part -- adding someone to an ignore list -- it explains a lot. :matte-motes-tongue:

 

[Clarissa Lowell]

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JeanneAnne wrote:

 The REAL freeloader is Philip Rosedale and his corporate cronies. I don't know what his personal finances are but I have little doubt but what you who pay for SL have made him a multi-millionaire, even as he lays off staff, fails to listen to your concerns, cuts corners and offers nil support, all for the sake of the corporate bottom line and his own personal enrichment.

Personally, I would offer solidarity with those of you who financially support these corporate pirates, not offer you scorn or ridicule. It's the rapacious business practices of these 1%ers who autocratically control SL that causes the class distinction between "land owners" and the homeless & $L-less masses. It's their policies that divide us and cause the animosities expressed in this very thread. The Lindens must be laughing when their paying members criticize those who play for free, rather than attacking those who set the policies that result in all the virtual social evils that beset SL. Getting the victims to fight among themselves rather than unite and oppose the oppressor is a tried & true tactic, and it seems to be working here. 

Jeanne

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You SURE don't sound like a newbie to me.

[Ariel Vuissent]

Ah, well. This thread has gone from debate to resident dispute. No intellectual value remains.

To the OP: I do not support your idea, but I do respect that you have put thought into it. I don't think official squatting will ever take off. Good luck pitching it, though.

[Celestiall Nightfire]

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JeanneAnne wrote:

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Celestiall Nightfire wrote:

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So, I'll second Pamela's question?   Do you work for wages?   Are you employed?    Do, you support yourself financially?     

---

Please review the Second Life "Community Standards," specifically items #2. & #4.. Thank you!

http://secondlife.com/corporate/cs.php

Jeanne

---

 

There's nothing in my post that violates LL policy. 

But, it sure looks like *you* are trying to make a threat...which does violate policy. 

[China Yuheng]

i have a house in mijikayo, the area with the japanese style houses. i got it because the idea of community was hyped, but since ive been here it has been almost totally dead. community to me means neighbors and i would rather see some people who are living for free than rows and rows and rows of empty vacant places. if there is fear that those of us who pay will begrudge those who dont pay well maybe theres a way not to make it public who pays or doesnt. this area has been dead for a year and i doubt if anyone will be beating down the door to get in any time soon.

[Alyssa Xenobuilder]

"The only reason the person of ability would slack, or the person with need would ask for more then they need, is because they are afraid. Afraid of being taken advantage of, for instance, or afraid that if they don't take more then they need now, they will suffer from want later. In a culture where fear prevails, these are legitimate concerns. But Imagine a culture where no one need be afraid because they can count on the unconditional support of everyone around them. Imagine living in a society where one's creativity is fully appreciated and valued, and one's needs are freely and generously provided for. Can you?" - Jeanne

So let me get this stright what you are asking for is a world that is fair am I correct? If I am correct then you want this fair world to bleed off into the real world. I will ponder this for eternity because a fair world is not really a world I would want to live in a world where everybody gets what they deserve; be it bad or good because it could easily cause more bad in the world then good think of the horror movie wishmaster. One wrong word spoken out of context  can cause you to get what you deserve. Now lets look at greed and the fear of not having enough when needed. If everyone has what they need  and something new came out how would everyone get it at the same time and if one person gets it first then others would fear they might not get one fast enough so the fear will always be there. 

[Alyssa Xenobuilder]

She will not answer those questions those are very personal questions I think

[BornToObey Sideshow]

@China Yuheng

Thanks you very much for your opinion .

Second Life is great if there are people inside.

I really believe that having a way for a free house make people stay in Sl. I don't ask it for all, but you made an absolute point : living in a desert is boring, and make paying people to get out of SL.

It's also why Trilegy was a nice thing, and why I ask in my proposals to have a group dedicated to the community and support. 

I think a lot of rented parcels in quite empty land, with no traffic at all, could benefit from  3 or 5 new residents, even if they are squatters.

(I will pay you a visit, because I love Japanese style house ;-)

@ Ariel Vuissent

"To the OP: I do not support your idea, but I do respect that you have put thought into it. I don't think official squatting will ever take off. Good luck pitching it, though."

Thanks . I suppose the OP is me ? (what does OP mean ; i'm also Born to Learn, lol ?)

@Others : if we could stay on general topic, it will give it a chance to exist, thanks.

My proposals have been buried with a lot of personnal dispute, so I put them again:

 

             "Proposals" (I hope it is english ?)

Please, I know there is mostly owners here, but review it, and comments on the weak and good points (if any ;-) ) of these lines.

 

The goal is to help Linden Lab, paying residents, and business.

(LL is Linden Labs)

What Land and what privileges:

1 - Not all abandonned lands are concerned. Linden Labs decide of them, as they wish. They can sold these parcels or land at any moment (7 days notice, see below)

2-The numbers of prims available for each squatter is decided by LL (I suggest 400, which is far better than paid land, but  which is balanced by a lot of bad aspects.

3- No stream of any kind is possible on these parcels

4- No voices is possible on these parcels.

5- No selling, shops, advertising, pets growings is possible on these parcels.

6- the servers remain the old ones, this is a take it or leave it option

How does it work:

- A group is created . It will be for announcement for available parcels, cleaning days, and for people who want to squat, as it will be their passport to build in authorized parcels by LL

- Linden Labs  put  the parcels as "build only by the members "of that group.

This group is the relay of LL : When LL decide that a parcel could be available for squat, they labelled it "group only", and send the slurl to the group.

- This group is runned by volunteers, they will only have a list of the parcels from LL and are here to do the cleaning job, and police to make sure that every members get the same eqals sum of prims.

- This group have no right at all, only LL decide when and how this experience will start, end or stay

If LL decide that a parcel is no more available, the group and members agree on it as a Tos of that group

- an abandonned land can be sold at any moment, so squatters can lost their house at any moment, a "7 days before " notice will been sent in this group.

People can be banned of the group, for no respect of the rules. (prims, advertising, pets growing, etc)

After 3 months, they can re-enter the group.

A second ban is for life.

Cleaning , rezzing, prims:

basically, according to LL number of prims available for each squatter, the size of the parcel is divided by that number of prims. 

- Members of the group can rezz as a "first to rezz, first to have" as soon as prims are available after the cleaning date.

-Having a house before doen't give any rights, all rights are erased on the cleaning days. And , anyway, you don't have any right , except to keep your place until the cleaning day, or until LL decide to sold the land..

- members need to take out their commercials objects, as no responsability for failure in auto-return can exist.

- Everyone is asked to rezz balls in their toys, as they count in the prims limits.

A prim counter is available in the parcel  to help squatter to follow the community rules ( it could be an option as it could give lagg, and the goal is to have residents which are responsible)

- basically, each parcel is cleaned on a time base, decided by Linden Labs. To avoid servers stress, and for easier management for the free admins of the groups, parcels will not be cleaned at the same day.

Admins of the group can not have more sqm, or prims than others members. it's obvious, but it is better when it is said ;-)

Community

-a second group is created, a chat group, only for squatters to share knowledge, and to help each others. This one is for community purpose. You need to be part of the first one to get acces to this one (is it possible ??) may be it also not good, as this second group could be use for land's owner to advertise for renting place. so ...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I may have forgot a lot. and it is just some ideas of what it could be.

But, really, give my your opinion. This is not to replace paid land. This is not to kill your business. This is just to bring more people to stay in Sl...

[Celestiall Nightfire]

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BornToObey Sideshow wrote:

 

Thanks . I suppose the OP is me ? (what does OP mean ; i'm also Born to Learn, lol ?)

---

1)   OP stands for "Original Poster".    It's the person who first posted and started this thread. 

 

 

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BornToObey Sideshow wrote:

 

@Others : if we could stay on general topic, it will give it a chance to exist, thanks.

---

2)   Once a post is launched the people commenting can discuss want they want.  Many tangents happen, that's how RL discussions work and that's how forum discussion work too. 

 

 

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BornToObey Sideshow wrote:

 

My proposals have been buried with a lot of personnal dispute, so I put them again:

---

 

3)  Not so.   The posts in this thread have all been on topic.  Some of us were discussing the mentality behind the topic and proposals.   That you fail to see this, does not mean that our discussion is not on topic. 

 

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BornToObey Sideshow wrote:

Please, I know there is mostly owners here, but review it, and comments on the weak and good points (if any ;-) ) of these lines.

2-The numbers of prims available for each squatter is decided by LL (I suggest 400, which is far better than paid land, but  which is balanced by a lot of bad aspects.

---

4)   There are no good points.  There is also no need to review anything else you have written.  That one line says it all.  I'll explain, since you do not understand.

All objects like prims use server resources.  All avatars, prims, scripts, and everything that is inside a sim, draws resources from that sim.  When prims are being used, the server has to adjust, and so on.   If I am paying RL money to LL, to use server space, I do not want you to be able to draw resources from that server without also paying.  If you are using my resources, then you are a parasite on the system.   It means I'll have more lag, just so you can have a *free* place to rez prims.   This is a terrible idea, and would result in people actually abandoning more land and cause LL to lose money. 

It would be like you coming over to my house in RL when I'm at work, and you taking a shower and cooking your food at my house.  You'd rationalize it by saying, "Well, you're gone during that time, so I just thought I'd pop-in and use your house".   But, of course, what you're doing is using my resources like water, heat, upkeep on appliances, etc.  So, I end up subsidizing you.  

If this were to happen in SL, "squatters" would never have to pay, they would just move around and continue to mooch off of the paying residents.  I, for one, have no interest in subsidizing you, so you can have a "free" place to crash and rezz prims, at my expense.  SL is a virutal world.  This is not reality.  Do not ask me to give you money.  Because, that's what you're doing.  You're asking me to pay for you.  I say no. 

[China Yuheng]

@ celestial nightfire who said:

It would be like you coming over to my house in RL when I'm at work, and you taking a shower and cooking your food at my house.  You'd rationalize it by saying, "Well, you're gone during that time, so I just thought I'd pop-in and use your house".   But, of course, what you're doing is using my resources like water, heat, upkeep on appliances, etc.  So, I end up subsidizing you. 

 

Not really. A squat would be more like over-ambitious developers building a community of new expensive  luxury housing. They sell condos and anticipate a swell of monied people buying into the community. They sell a small percentage to the buyers, definately not half. And then the housing bubble bursts. You have people who would make good neighbors and need housing but can't afford to buy. They don't have money but they have some skills. It may be building, babysitting, counseling, organizing, dj-ing, singing, dancing, story telling.... you get the picture. But the developers say no, we would rather let it stay empty. Let those who are paying regret their purchase. Let it be a ghostown, then maybe we can sell to vamps and goblins. hahaha. 

[Celestiall Nightfire]

---

China Yuheng wrote:

i have a house in mijikayo, the area with the japanese style houses. i got it because the idea of community was hyped, but since ive been here it has been almost totally dead. community to me means neighbors and i would rather see some people who are living for free than rows and rows and rows of empty vacant places. if there is fear that those of us who pay will begrudge those who dont pay well maybe theres a way not to make it public who pays or doesnt. this area has been dead for a year and i doubt if anyone will be beating down the door to get in any time soon.

---

That means you have a parcel with less lag, which is a good thing.  I specifically wanted a LInden Home without neighbors, and unfortunately have neighbors who started sending me IMs immediately after I landed at my Linden Home!     If you want to see neighbors, switch your Linden Home to a different style.  Just abandon the home you have now, and go select a another one.  It's that easy. 

But, I will reiterate, the reason that I DO NOT want squatters in SL:

 ALL avatars and prims use resources from the servers.  So, when any additional avatars and prims are generated in a sim, it adds to the server load, and causes LAG.   Mainland is already too laggy.   So, if I am paying for use of land on a Mainland sim, I do not want people just popping in who are not paying, to be able to hang around and rezz prims.  That's what greifers do, and it lags the hell out of a sim.  That is unacceptable.   Such a proposal would be a sure way to get mad exodus from mainland and SL.   Why would anyone want to pay money....to support the online hobby of a stranger?  I sure as heck don't want to do that. 

If *you* want to allow squatters on your land, since you're lonely, then send the OP of this thread and message, and give him a landmark to your Linden Home.  Maybe he can be a squatter on your parcel.  It will kill two birds with one stone.  He gets to squat, and you get an instant community.  

Matter of fact, feel free to buy parcels all over the grid, and invite squatters onto *your* land.  Have at it.   Just don't ask me to pay for a strangers online hobby with ridiculous proposals like the OPs.  I have no interest in supporting an online virtual world that would take my money and give it to others to use for *their* hobby*.   I am not here to subsidized some random stranger's SL activity.

[Prokofy Neva]

Sorry, but I'm never going to endorse squatting. Societies based on communism don't work and are even destructive, and societies based on communist grabs by some and capitalist support by others don't work -- you're freeloaders.

Nobody owes you anything in Second Life. It's virtuality, and it is not a human society with taxes or charity where the poor can be helped, even when not deserving.There isn't that luxury in a world where every server inch costs the platform providers money.

Now, are you telling me that you can't afford $9.95 a month for a 512 parcel even? You can't give up one or two lattes?

Oh, you can't even afford *US $1.99 a month*? That's what my rentals cost at the lowest end -- $150 Lindens for 150 prims a week, with $540 a month advance payment. I refuse to give away land -- everybody can pay at least something, and $1.99 a month is ridiculous.

Oh, I even have a land preserve where I ask people to pay at least a one-time fee of $5 and $10 a day camping -- most people can do that much.

There is just no objective need to encourage the pernicious notion of squatting in SL.

Anyone who doesn't even want to spend one red cent in SL -- and red it would indeed be! -- can fly around to all the NUMEROUS Linden-created areas -- there are something like 1,000 or more Linden sims -- parks, builds, reserves, waterways, etc. You probably couldn't get through them all in months of exploring. Er, go and stay in the Falmouth Hotel, for example.

 

[Prokofy Neva]

Those places you are dancing in are run by people who play tier, dear.

None of this world would be here without the tier-payers. They are what keep Linden Lab in the clear with $75 million in profits a year. And that's ok, and that's valid.

This is not a stone soup open source picnic for everybody. And that's ok. Servers cost money; governance, content, search -- they cost money. It's ok to charge for land -- the land ownership metaphor works to sustain the economy. Everybody gets it that they don't really own this land, it's a license to access content. So what? Works good enough to make an economy.

Communism is not viable. Somebody always pays.

[Prokofy Neva]

This notion of "corporativism" is a chimera. It's a concoction of the left.

In the case of Linden Lab, there isn't some evil giant corporation. It's a small private company with at the most 300 employees, many of them part time making $9 an hour. Philip Rosedale is the last person you'd call some kind of evil corporate overlord, he's more of a technocommunist share-bear than you are, trust me on this.

[BornToObey Sideshow]

you say " I specifically wanted a LInden Home without neighbors, and unfortunately have neighbors who started sending me IMs immediately after I landed at my Linden Home! "
come with me squatting, you will NOT have neighbors... LOL
To ask for no neighbors seem strange for me, as we are in a virtual world, WITH neighbors.. And we are here to meet people, no ?
But if you want to be alone, may be an open grid could be a better place to live for you ..

China Yuheng made again some good points, because SL is Dying because people like you are happy only when it's empty all around their lands. That's not a community, that's not SL !!!

For the Lagg : did you know that all abandonned lands run on different servers ??? these servers can't handle a lot of traffic, and they can't make lagg on your land...

Did you know that a 8000 prims avatar will give you more lagg, if in your land, than a 12000 prims squatted land, near your land ???
a 80 prims Avis with 6000Ko scripts running in you land will do worse, it will just almost kill the server, LOL..

SO I don't understand you : It have never been said  that suatters have to squatt your land, and it's impossible to give you lagg if they are nearby, on abandonned sl land...

oh, the OP (thank the one who explain me what it mean) is a girl, just to mention it ;-)

Oh, you don't have to pay for stranger, or squatter, never !
The cost in BandWidth to have a home is nothing, according to a nice blinking outfit, full of AO, with some arrousal toys who travel in your land...
But if Sl die, and it will come from a lack of people, I hope you will remember me, as someone who have tried to help SL, in an economical way.

Did you check how many people who came at your land are "No payment registered" ????

check it, and look at the numbers...

But may be you just have a house in SL, these kind of suburbs which have been done, if it's your home, you're very unlucky, because they are always empty.

When I got home in trilegy, off course, some neighbors Im me. some were boring, and some become friends.. It is called a community... May be you just want to be alone in your mainland parcel ?
ONCE again, squatter don't take ressources in you paid land and don't give you lagg.
If you have a lagg meter in your parcel, and if there is an abandonned land nearby (99 % of chance) I'm ok to show you what I say...

Really, If I go public in this thread, it's because I really think it is a way for SL and LL to attract more traffic. and to live better, economically.. It's not a 6 months thinking,

your signature say "Buy it now! Sold everywhere."
you can buy it, but if there is no customer , you will lost everything...
And, I'm sorry, but your answer to China Yuheng is out of topic..
-->"I do not want people just popping in who are not paying, to be able to hang around and rezz prims."
People on Sl are playing, with, or without land.
some already rezz prims, LET'S FACE IT. So my proposals are to make some rules for it.
You have NEVER been asked to pay for squatter, and you WILL never be asked to..
It's not your problem, It's SL problem,
And what cost the most in BW is an AVis with scripted clothes, and scripts, because the Sl system have to render it, and send every parameters in RL time, to each people connected to the parcel.
That's the truth, ask some Linden people...

-->" I have no interest in supporting an online virtual world that would take my money and give it to others to use for *their* hobby*. I am not here to subsidized some random stranger's SL activity.

So , fight for a subscriber's only sl world...
If you win on that, SL will be dead in less than 6 months...
Regards

 

[BornToObey Sideshow]

despite your nice way of advertising on that topic, and it's ok, I wish you success, no,I can't afford it.

yes, Rl is worse sometime.

(9,95 $ is 8 day of food for me, just to say, and i live with euros, in the second most rich european country)

Yes, we can ... LOL

Just to say, I was renting a 1024 parcels, at 100 l$ a week, with 200 prims... You are cheap, but make an effort ;-) LOL 

The other thing is the way to pay : it's an other topic, but, yes, I WOULD have PAY if it have been more easy for européan customers WITHOUT a CB...(a card...)

And, how many are we in this case ???

I just stay in Sl, after more than 4 years, because I can have a home..

I'm not for communism, I'm not for capitalism, I'm in a game, remember, a virtual Life, so I try to make my point in it, that's all. You do the same, and thanks for your answer.

I will not ruin your bizness, first because you're not too expensive, then, because I'm not here to ruin it, but to support it !

Believe me, it was AFTER the trilegy free house that I have rented my house, at 100 a eek.

But I will not have rented it, NEVER, if I had not experienced FIRST how it is cool to have a home..

I'm honnest, Prokofy, that's my truth. Squatters will not kill your business, according to the way I think the rules can be.

More and more lands become empty, and, as in RL, when there are too many lands to sold, prices goes down. simple... Only a few people want to buy a shop in a desert...

If a squat have no right, but make traffic, even if the squatters buy for 200 l$ in the shops around, that's 200 l$ . 

It's better than 0

No ?

[Celestiall Nightfire]

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BornToObey Sideshow wrote:

A bunch of stuff...

---

Hmm, I've explained it as simply as I can.   That you still do not understand, could mean either a language barrier....and/or total lack of comprehension, as to how businesses work.  

Either way....you clearly just...don't...get...it.  

 

 

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BornToObey Sideshow wrote:

oh, the OP (thank the one who explain me what it mean) is a girl, just to mention it ;-)

---

You're welcome.   

 

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BornToObey Sideshow wrote:

More stuff that indicates a lack of understanding regarding business, economics, and particularly SL. 

 

---

Sheesh, BornTo....I've spent less time explaining issues to schoolchildren.  I think that there must be a mental schism at work here.  

Anyway...carry on.  Enjoy.  : )

 

 

[China Yuheng]

If I had an empty piece of land sitting there I'd be happy if someone was squatting on it, just like i would be happy if a homeless family was squatting on empty land I owned in real life. This is one reason why there is so much homelessness in the world today. peace.

[Clarissa Lowell]

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China Yuheng wrote:

If I had an empty piece of land sitting there I'd be happy if someone was squatting on it, just like i would be happy if a homeless family was squatting on empty land I owned in real life. This is one reason why there is so much homelessness in the world today. peace.

---

Why is it the people who say they'd love to have a squatter use their empty land never seem to own any land at all?

So you'd pay tier for someone else? Or you wouldn't mind if someone opened a sex shop next door to you? Or rezzed a giant ugly box or 100 cars?