No Threat from Meshes

[Chelsea Malibu]

I welcomed the addition of meshes though I was not sure how they would manage rendering cost as SL is not known for having the best server resources.  However, the idea of making everything over again in 3DS had me a bit daunted therefore, I have held back until I saw the full grid launch.

Last night I toured some of the Mesh builds in SL and I must say, it has clearly brought in a new class of builder while also creating some amazing new sites.  I find an amazing sculpture and click to it to see the prim count and the PE.  WOW!!!  A 7 prim item that counted for well over 200 prims and stood only a few meters tall.  I could easily see houses going into the thousands.

My next venture was to get some of the new clothing.  The idea of changing my avatar to their mesh shape that is not me so I could wear a dress means that every time I change clothing, I either buy from the same place I got the mesh shape or that I change my shape with each outfit.  Not really something I see myself or many others doing.

But most important is the lack of the ability for the end users to modify anything.  As SL is a place of creativity, nearly everyone take joy in that process even if its as little as changing your shape. 

In the end, I no longer see mesh as a threat though I do see this a nice addition especially in some parts of a build that just don't work any other way. I now see them as more an alternate when nothing else will do and not a replacement for what we currently have.

Sculpts, though they render poorly from a distance still work great close up and especially on small objects.  Prims always look great, can be textures and modified by the user and of course now that we can go as large as 64M they become even more useful.

Since I know many other "old school" builders who felt we'd soon be out of business, I wanted to post to give my thoughts as I am feeling that we still have a place in SL.

 

[Amethyst Jetaime]

You have summed up my feelings in a nutshell.  Today I inspected a 7 prim mesh object that used 317 prims up on the land when it was rezzed out!  The item really didn't look any better than the same thing made of sculpts, actually not as good because it was a motorcycle that had no "shine" on the metal surfaces, so the 'paint' looked fake.  A sculpted motorcycle that looked better only used up 32 prims.

[Emiko Luan]

I agree, they are very powerful but they don't usurp the existing creation techniques completely. It's good to fill a niche.

[Marianne Little]

I am sure many feel like you do. System clothing and prims will still be in use. For some clothes, it will also be a better  choiche than mesh.

But other customers, like me, shop mesh. I don't buy anything and everything just because it is mesh. It has to be well textured, rigged so it does not break and offered in different sizes. I have tried demos and not all is good enough. Since mesh came, I think I have only bought hair and skin that's not mesh. I have bought many skirts, mini, knee and long, jeans, wide pants, 2 tops,  2 fatpacks of boots and a single over knee pair. Also some dresses and a full mesh avatar. The avatar was mostly for the novelty and the low price, I can not see me wearing it much. 

I really like to mix mesh with other things from my inventory. But, I know many don't like mesh, so I think you as creators should make what you want, and if you do it well, people will buy.  It will be room for mesh, system layers, sculpts and flexiprims. I hope that LL will change how mesh works, as they have changed many other things. In the future, it may be possible to edit rigged mesh, I hope. 

[Monti Messmer]

Hi, fully agree to all u wrote.

Maybe one day we can use the size-handles shown when edit mesh clothes ?!?

For now it´s a trial and error to see if a mesh can replace a prim or a sculpt; hats shoes backpacks..... we will see.

And besides the bugs in V3 i will wait till enough people have moved to mesh-able viewers. Until that a mesh can only be an add-on for things the prim/sculpt version will remain in all my builds too (usually clothes).

Monti

[Josh Susanto]

I'm not going to try to tell everyone that mesh is pointless just because I'm not making any of it, and I still hope that as it becomes clearer what are the real advantages of mesh, we'll see more of it wherever those real advantages can actually be applied.

But I AM going to say that I have been hoping, all along, deep down, that I would have to eat my words in regard to my most cynical predictions regarding mesh, and that I am saddened to say I will not be doing that any time soon, if ever.

What I predict next is that LL will be pressured into reducing prim equivalency costs at least enough that mesh can better compete with a susbtantial proportion of what is currently offered in sculpts, but that the result will be massive lag, and massive denial of said lag by LL and buy mesh producers alike.

Eventually, people will come to accept that mesh causes lag unless they accept a practical prim equivalency higher than what LL has agreed to impose, or unless they can use mesh only for things that will have very compelling disadvantages when built with sculpts or other prims as compared to with mesh.

 

[Ciaran Laval]

People will learn how to optimise mesh, especially with buildings, you'll see those counts come right down as people get their heads around it.

Sculpts could be in trouble depending upon how the new land impact settings are rolled out.

Prims aren't going away and nor should they, they've been enhanced with the new larger prims.

[Imnotgoing Sideways]

Any mesh I've made so far has counted for < 1 prim.  With proper optimization, I can make meshes to replace prims and actually seemingly subtract from each other when linked due to rounding. ()

People who use 100 PE to = 1 prim are simply bad builders. =^-^=

My favorite example so far is a rounded staircase I made for a friend.  It replaced 3 prims with 0.50PE... Once linked to the build, it effectively disappeared from the parcel prim count. ()

A good chef will never blame a spoon for bad soup. ()y

 

 

 

 

[Toysoldier Thor]

---

Chelsea Malibu wrote:

I welcomed the addition of meshes though I was not sure how they would manage rendering cost as SL is not known for having the best server resources.  However, the idea of making everything over again in 3DS had me a bit daunted therefore, I have held back until I saw the full grid launch.

Last night I toured some of the Mesh builds in SL and I must say, it has clearly brought in a new class of builder while also creating some amazing new sites.  I find an amazing sculpture and click to it to see the prim count and the PE.  WOW!!!  A 7 prim item that counted for well over 200 prims and stood only a few meters tall.  I could easily see houses going into the thousands.

My next venture was to get some of the new clothing.  The idea of changing my avatar to their mesh shape that is not me so I could wear a dress means that every time I change clothing, I either buy from the same place I got the mesh shape or that I change my shape with each outfit.  Not really something I see myself or many others doing.

But most important is the lack of the ability for the end users to modify anything.  As SL is a place of creativity, nearly everyone take joy in that process even if its as little as changing your shape. 

In the end, I no longer see mesh as a threat though I do see this a nice addition especially in some parts of a build that just don't work any other way. I now see them as more an alternate when nothing else will do and not a replacement for what we currently have.

Sculpts, though they render poorly from a distance still work great close up and especially on small objects.  Prims always look great, can be textures and modified by the user and of course now that we can go as large as 64M they become even more useful.

Since I know many other "old school" builders who felt we'd soon be out of business, I wanted to post to give my thoughts as I am feeling that we still have a place in SL.

 

---

I agree with you Chelsea, there are still a lot of limits and hurdles for MESH to jump before its a serious replacement for SOME sculpty maps.  PE cost is one of them.  Not to mention that most viewers used by the vast majority of SL Population will likely not have MESH capability until Q1 2012.

With me making landscaping sculpty maps for large rivers, waterfalls, and mountain, rocky outcrop terrains, the PE cost will likely be rediculous compared to 1 prim Sculpty.  Maybe in the future when LL rebalances PE costs of MESH to be a reasonable cost comparison to 1 prim sculpties then mesh will take off.  A future banefit of mesh over sculpty for my landscape terrains pack will likely be that the terrain will have accurate physics.  This is the biggest limit for landscape sculpties - not fun to walk on them.

Problem I have is that LL made such a big splash that "MESH HA ARRIVED MESH HAS ARRIVED" that it likely is a major reason why my main sculpty landscape pack sales have plumetted in sales since Aug 1.  Still has not recovered.  I suspect that many of my potential customers have been breainwashed into thinking SCULPTIES ARE DEAD and are now not buying as much sculpty maps.

 

[Toysoldier Thor]

---

Imnotgoing Sideways wrote:

Any mesh I've made so far has counted for < 1 prim.  With proper optimization, I can make meshes to replace prims and actually seemingly subtract from each other when linked due to rounding. (

)

People who use 100 PE to = 1 prim are simply bad builders. =^-^=

My favorite example so far is a rounded staircase I made for a friend.  It replaced 3 prims with 0.50PE... Once linked to the build, it effectively disappeared from the parcel prim count. (

)

A good chef will never blame a spoon for bad soup. (

)y

---

Hmmmm there is a good solid backhanded slap in the face to 99% of Sculpty Map Builders that were not in the beta group and have not yet gained the deep / new experience of Mesh development and "optimization".

There you go Chelsea.... I guess we will be BAD BUILDERS when Mesh eventually becomes a mainstream product in Q2 2012.

 

[Imnotgoing Sideways]

Mesh optimization is by no means "new"... It's older than SL.  ()

Here's the fatal flaw... Prims and sculpts are the worst building tools for a 3D world.  Sure, they make things 'easy' but they include so many excess faces that there's no guessing why SL can lag systems which can render the latest games at 100FPS. ()

I don't have a history in mesh creation.  I'm still learning Blender... To the point that I just figured out how to set materials(faces) just a few weeks ago.  99% of the sculpty builders in SL have had a head-start compared to me. ()

But, I use logic.  Every vertice has to be calculated.  Every calculation requires processor time and memory.  The more processor time and memory you use, the slower your experience gets.  That's just how things work. =^-^=

So, when building in mesh, pretty much do half of everything you did to make sculpts and duplicate your efforts in lower polygon models.  1024 vertices is overkill for most anything and everything.  If something is going to appear as 20x20 pixels as someone walks by... Why does it ~need~ more than 200 vertices? ()

Slow down and think before you bash the tool based on failed projects.  Render your favorite non-SL game in wireframe and note the triangle count.  Work logically and intelligently while educating yourself in the process.  It's just math. You're getting worked up over something you can learn right now.  Emotions have no place in logical rendering efficiency. ()y

 

 

[Toysoldier Thor]

---

Imnotgoing Sideways wrote:

Mesh optimization is by no means "new"... It's older than SL.  (

)

Here's the fatal flaw... Prims and sculpts are the worst building tools for a 3D world.  Sure, they make things 'easy' but they include so many excess faces that there's no guessing why SL can lag systems which can render the latest games at 100FPS. (

)

I don't have a history in mesh creation.  I'm still learning Blender... To the point that I just figured out how to set materials(faces) just a few weeks ago.  99% of the sculpty builders in SL have had a head-start compared to me. (

)

But, I use logic.  Every vertice has to be calculated.  Every calculation requires processor time and memory.  The more processor time and memory you use, the slower your experience gets.  That's just how things work. =^-^=

So, when building in mesh, pretty much do half of everything you did to make sculpts and duplicate your efforts in lower polygon models.  1024 vertices is overkill for most anything and everything.  If something is going to appear as 20x20 pixels as someone walks by... Why does it ~need~ more than 200 vertices? (

)

Slow down and think before you bash the tool based on failed projects.  Render your favorite non-SL game in wireframe and note the triangle count.  Work logically and intelligently while educating yourself in the process.  It's just math. You're getting worked up over something you can learn

right now

.  Emotions have no place in logical rendering efficiency. (

)y

 

 

---

Hmmm you start the bashing by basically labelling new Mesh builders as BAD.  and you state that I started bashing?

And you now state that optimizations is older than SL...but again you seem to be missing the point... MESH IS NEW TO SL and its NEW TO SL SCULPTY MAP BUILDERS.

You state that you are brand new to creating mesh yet you talk about mesh development and optimization details like someone that knows FAR MORE than a new mesh noob builder.

I have been making sculpty maps for SL since 2009 using blender and Zbrush and I will tell you that 80% of what you just posted went over my head.

Ohhh yes thats right.... I would be one of those BAD BUILDERS.

Sorry but I dont believe you are new to Mesh.

[Toysoldier Thor]

PS.... if you say that Mesh is so much more efficient on the SL grid than a sculpty, then explain why LL decided to come up with the complex concept of mesh PE costs which in most cases will make a mesh prim more costly than a sculpty prim.

Why didnt they make all MESH objects 1 prim like a sculpty?

[Madeliefste Oh]

---

Toysoldier Thor wrote:

Why didnt they make all MESH objects 1 prim like a sculpty?

---

Because a sculpty is limited in size, but a mesh is not. One mesh can have the size of 1/4 sculpty or the size of 32.000 sculpties.

So this would completely overask the system and destroy the current SL economy.

[Josh Susanto]

The obvious reason that they had to institute PE costs is that if they didn't, meshes would be used so pervasively that they would create unmanageable lag (and why wouldn't they?).

Since mesh was released, people seem to have come crawling back to buy my sculpts only more aggressively than before.

But I have no illusions about competing as well with mesh outside of my established niche market for huge boulders and rock walls and such.

Anything that can be made at  prim cost of less than 1, I would actually urge people to buy rather than use something similar that I had produced. Maintaining the trust of my customers is much more important to me than any sales I might lose to mesh products in the process.

Mesh does not live up to the hype, but it absolutely does expand the total tool set which may be intelligently applied.

 

[Madeliefste Oh]

Still mesh can be interesting for lower primcount, not in all cases but in some. The 'hidden advantage' with mesh is linking. When you have one mesh rock it will always have a minimum primcount of 1. But when you link 10 low poly mesh rocks that all have a primcount of 1, the total prim count of these ten meshes becomes 6. When you link 20 mesh rocks the primcount becomes 11.

So as single object mesh can never win on prim count compared to sculpts of prims, but as soon as you start to link meshes you surely can save on prim count.

[Toysoldier Thor]

When I eventually try to create (or take one of my existing zbrush tool / mesh models) a mesh rocky terrain object into SL, my plan was just to create a larger and more detailed (more vertices) single mesh into SL.  Right now all my landscape mesh objects in either blender or zbrush are all single objects of a resolution of 32 32.  Most use the PLANE shape type.

My plan would be when mesh is more mainstream I would just create a much higher resolution PLANE shape type mesh ojbect (possibly using 128x128) and import it into SL as a single mesh.  I dont know how to "link" shapes or the reason why I would for a rock or a waterfall shape.

I guess that will be part of the learning curve when I get to that.  But if you are saying that i could create a high resolution flat shaped mesh model and it would start at 1 prim... that sound like it would be the lower cost option than linking multiple mesh objects and the related upload costs.

anyway... for now sculpty is still te only viable type of shape on SL fro the next 6 months. - more for sculpty landscape shapes.

[Josh Susanto]

OR you and I could start trading tips on relief plane sculpting, and even if the meshes have lower prim counts, they just won't look as good as what we make.

[Topa Adamski]

I am using sculpties for my  creation usualy  armors i make, and i was realy look foward that mesh whuld be realy helpfule tool for it. But i figureout that is not  that  perfect as all think whuld be, anyway... i agree with you Toysoldier, I am using Zbrush as main tool  for creating sculpties and texturing also baking  so i am realy happy with result, and i doubt that any mesh can compet with it. For sure not in next 6 monts or more. And i bealive that any sculptymaker can learn all about mesh when the times come. So let the smart ones do the job... and we come later to make  best stuff thay ever seen

This is my latest armor i make  so u can see level of detiles and  what sculpty can do.

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/TSC-Fallen-ArchAngel-Armor/2634036

[Toysoldier Thor]

WOW Topa!! that looks amazing  .... for a stinky ugly sculpty

seriously though... the sculpty armour looks awesome.

and yeah .... we will let the SMART builder struggle with all the LL bugs and glitches and perfect the proecess and tips and techniques until there is actually enough SL residents to actually SEE the mesh objects on the grid.

Then us BAD builders will be lazy and use all the documented and perfected tricks on how to easily and efficiently create and import and optimize the meshes for the mainstream customers.

 

[Imnotgoing Sideways]

I know what I know because I pay attention.  That's all.  ()

As for PE... It's a fix for a faulty accountability system that should have been implemented long ago.  Prim counts were okay to keep things simple, but, they allowed for horrbiy laggy builds which have been the relative ruin of SL.  With PE, builders will be accountable for the lag their creations generate.  Create an over-detailed, over-textured, over-blown item... Expect it to detract from prim counts and cost a ton while uploading. ()

Instead of complaining about the mysteries of this "new" building method, why not study and practice it?  Really, I have no history of being a builder.  If you ever visit my store, you'll see a sad and disappointing array of glasses and doll keys best reserved for freebie malls.  But, when and advancement comes my way, I try to advance with it. ()

Really.  Learn.  Make it fun.  I strongly suggest watching the tutorial videos posted on this blog http://blog.machinimatrix.org/ . EVERYTHINGI know about Sculpts, Mesh, and Blender; I learned by watching those videos. ()

Mesh is far easier than sculpts.  Sculpted prims were a kludge put in to SL in order to imitate mesh tools available on other platforms.  It still serves a valid purpose.  But, the added difficulty and gross limitations really make it unreasonable to continue wrestling with sculpt tools when the system has now been simplified with Mesh. =^-^=

Yes, using mesh comes with a cost, but, it's far less a cost than anything we've seen before.  In exchange for a more dynamic means of measuring the "prim count"; we get the opportunity to reduce lag, improve the experience, ease off on LOD issues, and generate far more detailed and shape-appropriate creations.  If you don't?  You pay.  Waste costs now. =^-^=

For the longest time, what has been the greatest complaint about SL?  LAG.  SL is laggy.  Popular-MMO-Game gets 120 FPS and SL gets only 5.  People crash just by turning left.  Why?  Triangles.  To bloody many of them.  Why?  Because prims have too many.  We've been allowed to be wasteful for practically free.  Now we get the opportunity to be beautiful for a minor fee. ()

But, if y'alls is all out to just complain... Fine.  More customers for me once I get my butt in gear. =^-^=

 

 

[Toysoldier Thor]

We all will learn. At the right time.  We will learn from the bleeding edge builders like you that figure out all the mesh / LL / SL bugs in mesh.  We will learn when it becomes more stable and everyone has viewers.  (about 6 months from now).

I am sure that once LL and mesh beta / initial builders like you figure out all the bugs of mesh on the grid that mesh will take off and some year be the main object on the grid.  I also know that mesh model will be more simple than mesh to Sculpty UV map model.

Next year when mesh is a rock solid solution that all residents can see and use and properly modify ... I will surely be there and start converting some of my sculpty.  I will use the tutorials that generation 1 SL mesh makers like you will post as blogs and videos to make my transition to mesh very easy.

No one is denying that mesh some day will be superior and we are looking forward to all its benefits.  But myself and others are also pragmatic and dont waste a ton of cycles learning a lot on a technology for SL that is still a moving target.  Best to enter into the market when the technology is stable and mature and there is an actual customer base that will buy it.  That is next spring.

thanks though for the knowledge.... and thanks also for being the first gen of mesh makers to work with LL and pave the way for us lazy ones.

[Topa Adamski]

I agree that  all sculptumakers actualy work with mesh all the time, ill point out one example of the  same armor, on work proces....

 http://fealons.deviantart.com/#/d48hgpd

on this image u can see alot sculpted parts... for each i nead to make UV map and texture... its realy painfull process and take alot time to make,  becouse first i nead to make shape and export uv map..than same object  i devide to be  high detiled polymesh  to create high detiled texture, than apply to  low poly sculpted object in world.

Its easier to merge all parts together and make one object,  than just make one texture out of it.. so u can export to colada file with LOD1,2,3

I just want to say  that we whuld not have problem making mesh stuff at all, Only problem is that SL nead to  make that possible as shuld without this bunch issues we have already... for that nead a little bit more time, but if i am right we already know what is the mesh ?> No big deal.

[Medhue Simoni]

As some1 that has worked very extensively with mesh for the past year, I would have to disagree with the tone of this thread. Basically, I've almost tried it all. Now, when I sit down to think about how to create something, mesh is the first aspect that I try to exploit. What was almost impossible or super complex before, is now super easy. I don't just mean how to make something, but also the amount of prims, and what you can do to a mesh with a script.:matte-motes-nerdy:

If any1 reading this thread is a serious creator who primarily sells objects, you are only hurting yourself by not learning as soon as possible. I'm saying this from a creators standpoint, not a business man or a merchant. Once you understand all the possibilities with a mesh, it makes the whole creation process so much more pleasurable.:matte-motes-bashful-cute-2:

Outside of some obscure tests I've done, I have complete and total control over the prim count or PE. The decisions are all mine. If I want a 1 prim object that includes 3 shotguns slugs, 4 bullets, 1 pistol cartridge, and 2 magazime catridges, no big deal. If I now want all those separately for a different product, give me a minute.:smileysurprised:

Oh My God, the lag reduction. Anything super complex to build in SL, is easy in mesh, and super efficient, if you get good at it. As my 1 prim example shows, I decide what 1 prim is, by the choices I make. If we are talking more than 1 prim, then you have even more room to play with. The amount of detail is up to you, but there are prices to pay for everything, even more that LL has nothing to do with but are part of the technology.:matte-motes-sunglasses-3:

Does all this mean the end of prims and sculpts. Well, to be honest, sculpts probably won't go away, but very few people will be making any new 1's. Prims are a part of SL, and what makes SL so special. SL is many things, but I think it all starts in the creative mind, and prims starts people down that long 3d road of creation. For me tho, yeah, i will rez some cubes and stuff every now and then, but even a mesh box is more efficient than a prim cube.:smileyindifferent:

Will mesh destroy all prim and sculpty products? No, because SL is made up of tens of thousands of creators, all specializing in their fields, which ends up producing a range of products that staggers the mind. Everything can't be redone overnight. I would suspect tho, if you are a serious creator that wants to continue to earn a decent income in SL, you would be wise to learn as much about mesh as you can.:smileywink:

Personally, I think it is quite funny when normally creative people are handed what should be a 3D creator's ultimate tool, and they fight to reject it. I knew almost nothing about mesh a year ago. Learn, play with it, It is truely LIBERATING.:matte-motes-inlove:

[Toysoldier Thor]

Medhue.... No one is REJECTING MESH.  We know it will come and eventually be mainstream in about 6 months.  We all know that when this time comes and all the bugs are worked out of MESH interacting with the main grid and with avatars that its attached to and how it effectively works in the ECOMMERCE process (how to sell it, market it, buy it, use it to make other sellable things with it), then MESH will be far superior to Sculpties.

What we are all trying to tell the hyper-excited Mesh lovers like you is that its not ready for prime time / mainstream.  For most of us, we will start dipping our toes in the water and more seriously consider developing mesh when it become much more clear that MESH is a viable creation to inject into SL and .... wait for this important fact... MAKE MONEY FROM IT.

You are one of the Mesh creators at the bleeding edge of MESH evolution into SL.  I praise you and others like you for being so excited about it that you cannot wait to get going.  Its people like you that are willing to suffer all the glitches and furstrations of fixing the glitches and having nearly no one to sell your product to while the rest of wait for you to pave the way for us to start using it.

We will use your tutorials and machiminas and lessons learned and LL's fixed bugs when its ready for mainstream use.  That time for me is at minimum Q1 2012.

And as you said yourself.... its so much easier than Sculpty creation.   As such, it wont take creators like me long to sit down and figure out how to take my MESH OBJECTS I have been creating in Zbrush and bring them into SL to be sold and used properly.

I hope that clears things up.