How text-only viewers might be able to save us some of us from PBR

[Love Zhaoying]

12 minutes ago, gwynchisholm said:

This game runs on anything, it runs poorly on anything but it does run on anything. 

 

1 minute ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Too bad it's not accurate. At least not according to people in-world who are being affected

So, the part I quoted: it's inaccurate that the game "runs" (but poorly)? What does this mean then, the game does not run "at all"?

[Zalificent Corvinus]

3 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

So, the part I quoted: it's inaccurate that the game "runs"

The inaccurate part is the whole "I'm pretending there are not large numbers of people complaining about rendering errors, and substantial FPS drops, and I'll blatantly lie and say it only affects 3 people, before claiming I stuck two copper wires in a lemon and saw no FPS drop."

He claims that it's 3 people, Steam's hardware survey, of their 120 million users, shows that about 15 % use integrated HD graphics, with only 512 mb of VRAM.

That's NEVER going to run PBR at anything even remotely resembling a usable FPS, and no by useable II don't mean 60, or 30, I'm talking about over 5-10, so that you could, in theory, walk slowly about.

 

[Ayashe Ninetails]

7 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

So, the part I quoted: it's inaccurate that the game "runs" (but poorly)? What does this mean then, the game does not run "at all"?

I was referring to the part in your quote about it only being 3 or 4 people affected.

After reading back in the Firestorm support group chat for a few minutes, I count more than that. 

[Theresa Tennyson]

12 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Pathfinding

Bento foot bones, wing bones

The "fix" for alpha blend hair sorting based on attachment point

PBR

EEP

Animesh

200 Avatar event regions

2k Textures

Web cam based auto-gurning

Region Crossings

Prim-Bullet 2.0

Client side Lua

Banlines only working to 50m above terrain

Bellicosia

 

 

There's a short list for you to get started on.

Sounds like Bakes-on-Mesh is just fine then.

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

16 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

So, the part I quoted: it's inaccurate that the game "runs" (but poorly)? What does this mean then, the game does not run "at all"?

I was referring to the part in your quote about it only being 3 or 4 people affected.

After reading back in the Firestorm support group chat for a few minutes, I count more than that. 

Yeah, I did not mean to quote that part, just "it runs but badly".  I did not read about many users for whom "it will not run at all", who actually tried different settings, etc.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Yeah, I did not mean to quote that part, just "it runs but badly".  I did not read about many users for whom "it will not run at all", who actually tried different settings, etc.

Well, 3 or 4 is a huge understatement. I only log in for a few mins at a time here and there, and I've already seen so many people in that group chat since the rollout request support and claim they're going back to old versions of Firestorm until things are stabilized. Some users are having minor issues and glitches that will most likely be addressed in a future update. For some, it really does not run at all (constant crashes and freezes). For others, they're asking how to go about doing hardware upgrades, what hardware will work, etc. so it sounds like their issues are a bit more serious.

You don't have to take my word for it or anyone else's. The group is free to join.

[gwynchisholm]

2 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Yeah, I did not mean to quote that part, just "it runs but badly".  I did not read about many users for whom "it will not run at all", who actually tried different settings, etc.

as noted this game runs on anything, runs well is a different story

heres a windows 7 equipped thinkpad x230t from 2012, a midrange 12.5" business laptop running current firestorm in a PBR specific location

it runs, its not enjoyable, but it runs

this machine will get 20fps in toaster mode in less flashy locations, which isnt amazing either, but this is an example of what i would consider the lowest end hardware still in reasonable use today

if youre running something older or lower spec than this? i dont even know how someone would have been playing SL before pbr on that type of hardware, i mean you can run SL on some very low spec machines but it starts getting into the realm of "huh this can launch the game" more than it would be people trying to actually use hardware that old regularly for normal play

i mean who is using hardware like this still? this stuff isnt even relevant in terms of buying old business laptops to use as daily drivers, people moved on to the 8th gen stuff in that market because you can get T480's for under 100$ now, and 8th gen igpu would absolutely smoke this

thats the part i dont get, who are all these people who now cant play SL because theyre legitimately trying to use computers from the bush administration on a daily basis?

I could maybe see the desktop hardware being somewhat common since people are still being scammed into buying i5 2400 entry level gaming pcs these days, but really something like that paired with a tolerable old gpu will still play SL without any fuss. But someone still running a core2duo? Youre at the point where SL performance is the least of your concerns, because that can be closing in on a 20 year old motherboard in not that long now, where just hardware degradation is a concern.

 

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

For others, they're asking how to go about doing hardware upgrades, what hardware will work, etc. so it sounds like their issues are a bit more serious.

Yet, we don't know if they tried different settings or, horror of horrors - a different viewer, do we?

2 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

You don't have to take my word for it or anyone else's. The group is free to join.

I don't disbelieve you.  

I wouldn't want to use Firestorm, then I'd have the same problems as everyone else! So, I would not have any business in their "support groups" except to "research" (as we are discussing).

I am perfectly happy using the Official Viewer, and have zero problems with it.

 

[Ayashe Ninetails]

2 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Yet, we don't know if they tried different settings or, horror of horrors - a different viewer, do we?

Of course they did. Those are the first things they're told to do. Adjust settings, try whitelisting, try different viewers, do clean a install - all basic troubleshooting. Reverting to an old Firestorm version to wait for the next update or using a viewer like Cool VL or Alchemy is what many have done if all of the basic steps fail to fix their issue.

[Love Zhaoying]

Just now, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Of course they did. Those are the first things they're told to do. Adjust settings, try whitelisting, try different viewers, do clean a install - all basic troubleshooting. Reverting to an old Firestorm version to wait for the next update or using a viewer like Cool VL or Alchemy is what many have done if all of the basic steps fail to fix their issue.

Thanks, my assumption was based on how most threads go here, where sometimes people just vent then go "dark" when suggestions are made. (Or change the subject.)

[Arielle Popstar]

37 minutes ago, gwynchisholm said:

The amount of people this impacts by raising minimum hardware requirements at this point is like, maybe 3 or 4 people?

This game runs on anything, it runs poorly on anything but it does run on anything. 
The systems that would still be somewhat capable of playing SL before PBR but not now are easily 10-15 year old low end hardware. Like pre skylake laptop igpu. Stuff that was having problems just being remotely compatible with windows 10, let alone trying to play games. And I don’t think the amount of people still running systems like that regularly are any notable population.

I play this game on an N100, a modern embedded low power processor, 8gb of ram and a 750ti, a midrange GPU from 2015. I don’t think PBR impacted my average performance at all, or at least not in any meaningful way. Anyone running a vaguely modern system, and by that I mean something from at least the last decade, shouldn’t have seen any change at all unless they’re cranking settings to the max, which will kneecap any hardware.

It no longer will work on 32 bit systems or OS's older then Win 10 or 11, in addition to the sorts of systems with integrated video, so I think you're severely grasping that PBR is only affecting 3 users.

Then there are that portion of residents for whom PBR will cause such a slowdown that it will be severe enough to affect their gameplay like attending clubs and shopping events. Even with my 1070 card, FPS was cut by a third to a half, enough to still play but it will curtail the sorts of activities I currently enjoy.

If one stands up in their skybox navel gazing while posting in the forums about how great PBR is, spare me. Not everyone parks their avatar because their machine is pretty much incapable of doing much else then trying to convince everyone else PBR is the best thing since they invented sliced bread.

Even before PBR, I know of quite a few who could barely stay inworld because of the slow FPS in a club and with the PBR viewers, that will be even more and those already challenged, will likely not be able to stay inworld at all. And for what? The PBR viewers do not show a nicer view currently and it is questionable whether it ever will.

[Chelsea Hansen]

22 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Well, 3 or 4 is a huge understatement. I only log in for a few mins at a time here and there, and I've already seen so many people in that group chat since the rollout request support and claim they're going back to old versions of Firestorm until things are stabilized. Some users are having minor issues and glitches that will most likely be addressed in a future update. For some, it really does not run at all (constant crashes and freezes). For others, they're asking how to go about doing hardware upgrades, what hardware will work, etc. so it sounds like their issues are a bit more serious.

You don't have to take my word for it or anyone else's. The group is free to join.

Hi Ayashe.  I am in the Firestorm support group and like you I notice residents needing help with the current update. I'm certain more than three of four need help, but even if, say, 100 residents are experiencing reduced performance this is a drop in the bucket when compared to all the residents having zero or minimal problems!  There are thousands who use the Firestorm viewer.  It's easy to get a skewed idea pertaining to the scope of the problem when we only hear from those needing support, and we don't hear from those doing fine.

Likewise, this skewed perception affects the forum. Those having problems are very loud!  I can't blame them really as they love SL and want the thing to work!  But still, we need to keep in mind that we are likely getting a distorted perception when we only pay attention to those who are upset and not hearing from all the others who are doing fine or only minimally affected.

Personally, my old desktop isn't the greatest, and I do see some diminished performance, but nothing to write home about.

[Arielle Popstar]

29 minutes ago, gwynchisholm said:

as noted this game runs on anything, runs well is a different story

heres a windows 7 equipped thinkpad x230t from 2012, a midrange 12.5" business laptop running current firestorm in a PBR specific location

it runs, its not enjoyable, but it runs

How did you get FS to even install on a Win 7 with integrated graphics?  According to the FS site that should not have been possible. Just because you've managed a workaround doesn't mean the rest of the residents using FS will be able to. https://wiki.firestormviewer.org/downloads

• Windows 10 and 11 64bit, are supported.
  Earlier versions of Windows and 32bit are not supported.

• Windows 10 & 11 - Firestorm 6.0.2 and later are compatible with Windows 10 and 11.
  However, if you are running Windows on a system with an older Intel graphics card which does not support Windows 10 or 11 - Intel HD 2000, Intel HD 3000 or anything marked as “No” for Windows 10 or 11 on this list,
  you will only be able to run the 32bit versions of Firestorm 6.0.2 to 6.6.17, even if you have a 64bit version of Windows 10 or 11.
  Please see the “Graphics Issues After Win10 Update” section on this page for detailed instructions if you are running Windows 10 or 11 on an older unsupported Intel card and have problems running Firestorm 6.0.2 to 6.6.17.
  Firestorm 7.1.9 and later will not run on Windows 32bit.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

7 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Thanks, my assumption was based on how most threads go here, where sometimes people just vent then go "dark" when suggestions are made. (Or change the subject.)

Welcome, but in-world troubleshooting is quite a bit different from the forums. Nobody has to wait sometimes an hour or more for a response and come back to reply whether a suggestion worked or not, etc. These issues tend to get resolved within a matter of minutes (or not at all when they give up) because someone's always around to help.

 

1 minute ago, Chelsea Hansen said:

Hi Ayashe.  I am in the Firestorm support group and like you I notice residents needing help with the current update. I'm certain more than three of four need help, but even if, say, 100 residents are experiencing reduced performance this is a drop in the bucket when compared to all the residents having zero or minimal problems!  There are thousands who use the Firestorm viewer.  It's easy to get a skewed idea pertaining to the scope of the problem when we only hear from those needing support, and we don't hear from those doing fine.

Likewise, this skewed perception affects the forum. Those having problems are very loud!  I can't blame them really as they love SL and want the thing to work!  But still, we need to keep in mind that we are likely getting a distorted perception when we only pay attention to those who are upset and not hearing from all the others who are doing fine or only minimally affected.

Personally, my old desktop isn't the greatest, and I do see some diminished performance, but nothing to write home about.

Hiya! Oh I'm sure tons aren't having any issues at all. I agree with you there. It's just I think lowballing the number (whatever it may be - we're never going to know exact figures) isn't doing us any favors either. It's also going to be super hard to figure out until everyone is forced into a PBR viewer, which could take months to a year or whatever. 

Many of these issues aren't overly serious and will be addressed in future updates for sure. Others are going to require some hardware upgrades or new laptop/PC purchases. Fairly normal stuff in the gaming industry really, but if users aren't into gaming, they might have a bit of a time finding a new configuration that works for them without spending gaming PC money.

At any rate, I feel for those having issues. It's gotta be stressful when all you want to do is log in and chat/shop/dance/play house. I myself loathe dealing with software/hardware issues and I've done it many times before even so it's not like I don't know how, so I get the frustration.

[gwynchisholm]

6 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

It no longer will work on 32 bit systems

Entirely irrelevant in 2024 and has been for years, the last 32 bit hardware is from 2006 with the core duo mobile processors (not core2duo), and not even specifically the processors but the chipsets they ran on being 32 bit. That hardware has been unable to play SL in any way for years.

7 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

OS's older then Win 10 or 11

I run up to date firestorm and the LL viewer with PBR on windows 8.1, and the image I posted above is current firestorm running fine on windows 7. They’re not super relevant operating systems but if you’re running hardware that just runs better on pre windows 10 operating systems and won’t use Linux, they’re still an option. Though you should probably use Linux. I use 8.1 because I don’t want to deal with 10, but Linux doesn’t have good enough media support and most of what my pc is for is music, so it’s a compromise.

9 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

in addition to the sorts of systems with integrated video,

This applies to literally any computer. Integrated video isn’t inherently bad, extremely old and low end igpu is an issue. But like modern iris Xe video will play SL without any caveats. The concern is people running stuff like HD3000/4000 still, not someone turning off shadows on HD620 to get 40fps instead of 20.

11 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Then there are that portion of residents for whom PBR will cause such a slowdown that it will be severe enough to affect their gameplay like attending clubs and shopping events.

11 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Even before PBR, I know of quite a few who could barely stay inworld because of the slow FPS in a club

This has less to do with PBR and more to do with poor optimization in SL to begin with, which is a seperate issue, and one of a rare few things I agree with zalificent on, was priority of graphical changes and improvements to the game where PBR came before anything else for some reason. SL runs like crap because it’s an ancient engine that doesn’t utilize modern hardware well. PBR didn’t help the performance issues but the major argument I’m trying to make is that PBR didn’t impact things so severely as people state. You have a bad experience with performance in clubs because there’s a bunch of people there and the unoptimized content of the game being forced through an engine which doesn’t know how to use modern resources well is just running poorly. Tacking PBR on that makes it worse, but isn’t the core issue.

5 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

How did you get FS to even install on a Win 7 with integrated graphics?  According to the FS site that should not have been possible. Just because you've managed a workaround doesn't mean the rest of the residents using FS will be able to. https://wiki.firestormviewer.org/downloads

I did zero workarounds, I downloaded and installed the client from the firestorm website and it just worked. Not supported doesn’t mean it won’t work, it just means nobody is developing it with windows 7 in mind. One day something might change that renders it inoperable and the firestorm dev/devs aren’t going to do anything about it because it’s unsupported.

It’s the same thing that confuses people about windows 7 going eol, thinking it was just going to stop functioning one day. It just means it got no more updates, updates aren’t essential.

[Theresa Tennyson]

25 minutes ago, gwynchisholm said:

SL runs like crap because it’s an ancient engine that doesn’t utilize modern hardware well. PBR didn’t help the performance issues but the major argument I’m trying to make is that PBR didn’t impact things so severely as people state. 

I think part of the problems that people who do have high-end hardware and are having issues comes from this. The PBR viewers use more of hardware capability. There are probably people who told the old viewers, "Okay, use up all my hardware" and the viewer basically said,

"Okay

I'll

Get

Right

.

.

.

On

That."

Basically, they never noticed how high a load they were trying to put on their viewer because the viewer was bottlenecking at some point.

Now with the PBR viewers, saying "Okay, use up all my hardware" may be getting a reply of, "Allrighty then..." and it actually does it. End result: Fire!

Edited August 13 by Theresa Tennyson

[gwynchisholm]

A similar thing is happening right now with Nvidia and Microsoft dropping support for platforms without the SSE4 instruction set, specifically the POPCNT instruction. Which came out in processors in 2008.

So Microsoft says windows 11 won’t run on your pre 2008 processor any more, and Nvidia says modern driver updates won’t work on your pre 2008 processor anymore.

But it doesn’t matter because this affects like, nobody? Like who is running an e6700 on windows 11 with a GPU that’s still getting current driver updates? The oldest to still get mainstream updates is Maxwell, so you’d be running like a GTX 950 or something with a core2 cpu on windows 11?

The person with that hardware configuration either

1) knows exactly what they’re doing and is doing it as a joke, or

2) is completely clueless and replaced their GPU with whatever they could get a Best Buy in 2015 for cheap, and will not even notice when they stop getting updates 

The users impacted is bordering on not even being a measurable number. But much like this, people throw a tantrum over it anyway. PBR kinda omitting older systems from being usable for SL is a thing, but it impacts so few people I’m surprised anyone is talking about it because I’m surprised those people can even load a webpage without blue screening.

[SandorWren]

9 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

On the other hand, there certainly are people who are excited about PBR, and about the potential it holds for future developments down the road. They care about the platform too, and believe -- probably correctly -- that modernizing and updating is the key to the continued survival of SL.

tl/dr: the voices are loud and vehement because the personal stakes are high for both "sides."

The Pro-PBR people are going to win this -- have indeed already won this. We're not going back.

It seems to me that it would be good for them (and actually, in some regards, I'm one of them) to be gracious in victory, and to try to understand the very real upset and anger that the "losers" here are expressing. They may be a very small minority, but that hardly makes the anguish of those who find SL barely usable anymore any less real.

I DO get excited about it. BUT...If the people I spend most of my inworld time with can't function with PBR viewers, or have to limp along (Caitlin for example, can't at all, and Cinny switches back and forth), then PBR suddenly becomes VERY undesirable.  I personally am hoping for the options of either being be able to turn PBR off, or having both PBR and Blinn-Phong versions available!!! 

[Istelathis]

13 hours ago, Robin Kiyori said:

I still don't understand why this is all such a big deal and why there has to be so much mudslinging and insults tossed around. I can get saying it's buggy or not liking it. But there's just..no need for even  quarter of the bile being tossed around at all sides.

I think it is a form of entertainment.  I sometimes think of it like spectator sports, where people have their teams and get really involved with them.  I never did like spectator sports, and did not understand the extent people would get involved with them, I just know that they do.  

From a rational perspective, I believe it is just a matter of LL trying to get extra life out of the platform.  There are no moral or ethical reasons involved, they are not trying to punish people who have older or lower end computers, they are trying to maintain and extend the life of their product.  They will do whatever needs to be done to keep it afloat.  In doing this, many variables exist, such as the tools, products, operating systems, etc that are being updated, all of which are used by Second Life.  

What we, the audience do, is try to make sense of it.  Often, we tie in ethical reasoning, and then form arguments around it, create teams, be cheerleaders for our sides to get more supporters, get in arguments with the other side hoping they lose supporters, with the feeling that trying to produce a sound ethical argument will win over Linden Lab.

Really, all people need to do is toss a few noobies in volcanoes, and avoid this entire mess.  Appeasing the gods of SL necessitates sacrifice, not arguments.

Edited August 13 by Istelathis

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, Istelathis said:

I think it is a form of entertainment.  I sometimes think of it like spectator sports, where people have their teams and get really involved with them.  I never did like spectator sports, and did not understand the extent people would get involved with them, I just know that they do.  

Sometimes it feels like "Muggles vs. Slytherin".

[Istelathis]

Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

Sometimes it feels like "Muggles vs. Slytherin".

/me looks nervous

Shhhh.. you might usher in mouldermort!

[CaerolleClaudel]

4 hours ago, Sid Nagy said:

Let's all use Discord and done.
Saves a lot of L$ too.

I am guessing you are joking, but I will assume you are serious because to me there is a point here that perhaps everyone sees but that seems to me to get left out a lot.

Discord is great once you find a group, but IME people are not likely to run across one within Discord, you have to know a server exists and then join. Sure, a group of people who hang in SL could start a server, and I guess that happens quite a lot. However, without people congregating in SL itself, new people are not going to find the group and the group is not going to find new people (and maybe they don’t want to, SL seems really clique-oriented for the last 10+ years).

I guess it is an edge case, but if the group members have been in SL a long time and many struggle with PBR and move to text-only, the group as a whole can stay directly connected (literally lol) to SL. Also, though I think it would be harder to find new people to hang with in text-only or very limited graphic viewer (like Lumiya was), that possibility at least exists, while if someone’s only connection with SL people is Discord, they are unlikely to find new people. The exception would be if someone they already know introduces them to someone else so they can DM them on Discord (*if* the person is on Discord and *if* they are comfortable sharing their ID, which to me is a different thing than using IM in SL).

In the end, SL is (or should be IMO) very social and open, and Discord is not, so while a really disappointing (IMO) alternative, the text thing seems like a good idea even if it has limited appeal.

[Arielle Popstar]

57 minutes ago, gwynchisholm said:

Entirely irrelevant in 2024 and has been for years, the last 32 bit hardware is from 2006 with the core duo mobile processors (not core2duo), and not even specifically the processors but the chipsets they ran on being 32 bit. That hardware has been unable to play SL in any way for years.

I have a Windows Atom tablet from 2012 with a WIN10 32 bit OS that is still capable of logging into SL. It was only a year ago when I heard of an inworld friend was still logging in with a 32 bit WinXP machine. Obviously older machines out there still logging in then you['re aware of. There have been more then a few retirees who have also said they were on older hardware that they could not afford to upgrade to more current standards.

Quote

This has less to do with PBR and more to do with poor optimization in SL to begin with, which is a seperate issue, and one of a rare few things I agree with zalificent on, was priority of graphical changes and improvements to the game where PBR came before anything else for some reason. SL runs like crap because it’s an ancient engine that doesn’t utilize modern hardware well. PBR didn’t help the performance issues but the major argument I’m trying to make is that PBR didn’t impact things so severely as people state. You have a bad experience with performance in clubs because there’s a bunch of people there and the unoptimized content of the game being forced through an engine which doesn’t know how to use modern resources well is just running poorly. Tacking PBR on that makes it worse, but isn’t the core issue.

It may not be the core issue but it is the straw that is breaking the machines/gameplay for a larger portion of the populace then you're willing to admit to and even if there are free performance enhancing workarounds, there is the challenge of teaching non-techie residents on how to implement them.

 

Edited August 13 by Arielle Popstar
grammer

[Love Zhaoying]

What about a "text only" viewer with voice and other features?

[Raspberry Crystal]

11 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

What about a "text only" viewer with voice and other features?

Voice does seem to take up quite a bit of 'bandwidth' connection wise. It seems likely to me that someone who needs a text viewer isn't on a premium internet package