The End Of An Era and what was a wonderful, enlightened virtual world....

[Nagachief Darkstone]

7 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Ok, just took Alchemy for a quick test spin. I haven't tried it yet in a busy parcel or region, which is one acid test, but I have to say I am very impressed by the performance and, most especially, by the "Lightbox" feature. The latter is the chef's kiss -- so many cool options! And a poser! I was able to run it at Ultra, with Depth of Field on, and take 6k pics while my FPS never dropped below about 12. For my computer, that's stellar.

There's stuff I wish it had -- notably area search and a "preview" button for snapshots (I forgot to check if there was a teleport history option), and I wish it didn't mimic the LL viewer interface so closely (esp. the camera floater) -- but this is a really good option, certainly, for photos.

Yep Area Search is being worked on, no ETA on release though. While the Lightbox UI is being overhauled at some point, most of the current version was cobbled together by me.

If I think I know what you mean by snapshot previews, the double arrows on the top right of the snapshot window should show a preview.

[Arielle Popstar]

7 minutes ago, BriannaLovey said:

Ironically, FS has proven with this very release how much of a liability TPVs are.

Can you imagine the clustercluck this would have been if we had only the LL PBR to rely on it with LL's utter lack of support or even general acknowledgements that there might be some issues?

[Janet Voxel]

2 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Maybe they could put the Grid manager back in now that they should be aware that Opensim Grids do have PBR capability.

You could always ask them or ask them why they took it out.

[Rolig Loon]

16 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

But it's also true that Firestorm can be confusing to new users precisely because it has so many features.

There's a tricky balance here.  Many of the features that people think are Firestorm inventions are in fact options in Debug Settings that are available in all viewers including, of course, the standard LL viewer.  Firestorm has simply pulled them out and made explicit buttons for them in their UI.  On the one hand, this makes FS seem more customizable and "friendly".  On the other hand, it can also make FS appear more confusing.  The standard LL viewer is arguably less confusing but also less customizable and "friendly" by comparison. 

I'm not talking about design features like the standard viewer's CHUI or Firestorm's built-in AO, which really are unique to those viewers.  I'm simply talking about the pages of options that are in Firestorm's Preferences but not in the standard viewer's.

[Arielle Popstar]

Just now, Janet Voxel said:

You could always ask them or ask them why they took it out.

I did and it was stated that it was to do with a problematic PBR support in Opensim. That afaik has been resolved at least to the level that LL has.

[Harper Held]

1 hour ago, Arielle Popstar said:

I had heard about Alchemy but thx for the tip on Genesis. I won't need to bother trying it then. If a viewer doesn't have a Grid manager it is useless to me.

I just double-checked to be sure. from the Genesis FAQ:
 

Quote

 

Which OS and Grids does Genesis Support?

Genesis Viewer is for 64-Bit versions of Windows 10 and Windows 11. It is optimised for the Second Life Grid.  Support is restricted to these operating systems and grid.

 

 

[Janet Voxel]

1 minute ago, Arielle Popstar said:

I did and it was stated that it was to do with a problematic PBR support in Opensim. That afaik has been resolved at least to the level that LL has.

Ahhh, gotcha!

[Arielle Popstar]

2 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said:

I'm not talking about design features like the standard viewer's CHUI or Firestorm's built-in AO, which really are unique to those viewers.  I'm simply talking about the pages of options that are in Firestorm's Preferences but not in the standard viewer's.

At least FS has a Preferences search function which makes it so much more manageable to find the relevant Pref section to modify settings. This should be standard across all viewers.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

8 minutes ago, Nagachief Darkstone said:

While the Lightbox UI is being overhauled at some point, most of the current version was cobbled together by me.

Well, keep cobbling. It's fantastic for photographers!

[BriannaLovey]

8 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Can you imagine the clustercluck this would have been if we had only the LL PBR to rely on it with LL's utter lack of support or even general acknowledgements that there might be some issues?

Would have been a different situation of everybody was forced to use it all at once. Lots more complaints, bug reports, and other issues would have been filed. If it were a big enough problem to reduce the amount of online users, LL could force a rollback to the previous release until performance and other issues were resolved.

With Firestorm taking up close to half the userbase, the impact of PBR is effectively being delayed until version 6.6.17 is blocked, so LL isn't even on the receiving end of a lot of the user feedback about bugs specific to PBR and other new changes.

[Love Zhaoying]

23 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Fair point. And the screen is generally less cluttered by default.

Also, I HATE HATE HATE the LL chat and camera floaters.

HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE.

Etc.

So..not a fan? 

[Dorientje Woller]

24 minutes ago, Nagachief Darkstone said:

Yep Area Search is being worked on, no ETA on release though. While the Lightbox UI is being overhauled at some point, most of the current version was cobbled together by me.

If I think I know what you mean by snapshot previews, the double arrows on the top right of the snapshot window should show a preview.

One issue with the Alchemy Viewer and FireStorm Viewer is that they would use the standard (as in LL Viewer) appearance editor.

[Arielle Popstar]

32 minutes ago, BriannaLovey said:

With Firestorm taking up close to half the userbase, the impact of PBR is effectively being delayed until version 6.6.17 is blocked, so LL isn't even on the receiving end of a lot of the user feedback about bugs specific to PBR and other new changes.

Several years ago I think I heard it said by Oz that FS was used by close to 70-80% of the userbase.

[AmeliaJ08]

4 hours ago, Janet Voxel said:

This whole thing seems like I should feel bad that it works for me and I’m not having any major issues with it.

Nope, it works for most... this forum just gets mad over everything.

I think there's some evidence that the auto-selected graphics preferences might be a little screwy for some and ongoing issues with certain manufacturers making it hard to properly detect available VRAM though. There is also a lot of people expecting miracles when hardware simply isn't capable.

If anything my experience with PBR codebase viewers is they work *better* than before, frame rates are definitely higher due to much better GPU utilisation.

 

 

Edited July 16 by AmeliaJ08

[Arielle Popstar]

1 minute ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

Nope, it works for most... this forum just gets mad over everything.

This forum is often the first to hear of people having problems other that the FS support group. Combine that with many simply not realizing the load that the new viewers are putting on their machines because they don't pay attention to the FPS nor realizing that there is a greater strain on the cooling and even if they do, often think it is only themselves having the problem, whereas in the forum we know that there are a great many having issues because we hear about it then see it for ourselves.

[Luna Bliss]

22 minutes ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

5 hours ago, Janet Voxel said:

This whole thing seems like I should feel bad that it works for me and I’m not having any major issues with it.

Nope, it works for most... this forum just gets mad over everything.

I think there's some evidence that the auto-selected graphics preferences might be a little screwy for some and ongoing issues with certain manufacturers making it hard to properly detect available VRAM though. There is also a lot of people expecting miracles when hardware simply isn't capable.

If anything my experience with PBR codebase viewers is they work *better* than before, frame rates are definitely higher due to much better GPU utilisation.

This place is a nest of negativity...lol.

Dear Goddess, make it stop.

I'm having zero problems and nearly all people I know inworld are having zero problems or minimally affected.

Edited July 16 by Luna Bliss

[Codex Alpha]

20 hours ago, Rolig Loon said:

Most people who pick up SL want it to look good right off the shelf, or with as little tweaking as they can get away with.  Hence, the "idiot slider".  Their performance will rarely be as good as yours and mine, but if the slider is well designed they'll have a decent SL experience. 

Nothing is going to change this necessity, for the new user - who is lucky if they can even figure out how to walk.

17 hours ago, Rolig Loon said:

There's a tricky balance here.  Many of the features that people think are Firestorm inventions are in fact options in Debug Settings that are available in all viewers including, of course, the standard LL viewer.  Firestorm has simply pulled them out and made explicit buttons for them in their UI.  On the one hand, this makes FS seem more customizable and "friendly".  On the other hand, it can also make FS appear more confusing.  The standard LL viewer is arguably less confusing but also less customizable and "friendly" by comparison. 

I'm not talking about design features like the standard viewer's CHUI or Firestorm's built-in AO, which really are unique to those viewers.  I'm simply talking about the pages of options that are in Firestorm's Preferences but not in the standard viewer's.

The LL Viewer is just fine for the starting user. It's only for folks who are interested in probing into the Developer areas and Debug Settings are going to be attracted to Firestorm. I just happened to try Firestorm after looking at everything inworld the slow way - with the shortcut keys.. then appreciating that Firestorm had it all built-in and available, and that's when I use it. I learned a lot about SL and it's top creators by information on their objects using Firestorm, that was simply not available in the LL viewer. I'm not the average user though, and I'm not an elitist tech snob, so I always keep the average normal user in consideration for everything.

15 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

I'm having zero problems and nearly all people I know inworld are having zero problems or minimally affected.

This argument doesn't matter. If people are having problems, they're having problems. When those users are average users, they're not going to be able to explain their situation in the terms and conditions that you may be familiar with.

Computer systems vary; so experiences will vary. I"m not sure why you and others keep repeating over and over "Well it works for me"... so what?

Hey guess what, it works for me too.. but who cares.

It's the new user that all of this has to work properly for.

Don't make me pull out the Ukelele and accompany the "Kumbayah" crowd.. or if they like a more rock rendition...

"It's slow a**, It's f***'d up, I'm losing my mind but EVERYTHING'S FINE!"

Edited July 17 by Codex Alpha

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 hour ago, Rolig Loon said:

There's a tricky balance here.  Many of the features that people think are Firestorm inventions are in fact options in Debug Settings that are available in all viewers including, of course, the standard LL viewer.  Firestorm has simply pulled them out and made explicit buttons for them in their UI.  On the one hand, this makes FS seem more customizable and "friendly".  On the other hand, it can also make FS appear more confusing.  The standard LL viewer is arguably less confusing but also less customizable and "friendly" by comparison.

Yes, although Firestorm gets it right sometimes, finding a good balance. An example is the Phototools box, that gathers together a great many tools that would otherwise be accessible only through the Debug menu, and puts them in one neat, well-organized place. It's not obtrusive -- many residents I suspect are unaware of its existence -- but it's powerful, accessible, and easy to use.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

25 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

This place is a nest of negativity...lol.

Dear Goddess, make it stop.

I'm having zero problems and nearly all people I know inworld are having zero problems or minimally affected.

It's a cult.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

55 minutes ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

Nope, it works for most... this forum just gets mad over everything.

I have no idea what "most" means. 51%? Do you have numbers to back that up?

I don't, and I don't need them, because empirical evidence has made it clear that a LOT of people are struggling with this. Are you in any of the FS support groups? Have you LISTENED to the chat there, especially the first week after the new viewer was introduced? Are you on SL Twitter or Bluesky? On Discord groups? Because I am, and they are FULL of people complaining, or admitting that they are uninstalling the new FS and going back to an older version. Again, I don't have numbers, but I'd estimate that about one third to one half of my friends to whom I've spoken about this are doing that, or looking for a new viewer entirely.

Why do you suppose Henri hurried out a newly cobbled version of his viewer that allows one to turn off PBR? On a whim? He was bored?

We all live, to some degree, in bubbles, and it's possible that my "bubble" (although it encompasses, for example, everyone on the FS support group) is one in which people are more likely to have trouble than yours. And it's also true that you'll hear more complaints than "it works fine."

But to suggest that this is merely about complainers on the forums is demonstrably, provably, incorrect.

Edited July 16 by Scylla Rhiadra
Typo

[Luna Bliss]

5 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

30 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

This place is a nest of negativity...lol.

Dear Goddess, make it stop.

I'm having zero problems and nearly all people I know inworld are having zero problems or minimally affected.

It's a cult.

And you are the sad leader, in bed with Arielle, Zali, & Codex.  Heaven help us.

[Codex Alpha]

8 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

It's a cult.

It's a very common phenomena on smaller platforms, where there will be a group of elitists who will defend the game/software/platform to the death against all newcomers and criticisms, and can really be a force of toxicity that can keep a place from growing. It's documented and even included in modern "Community Manager" courses. LL platforms suffer from this immensely, and even if we cannot fairly equate correlation to causation - my observances being on their platforms has the same behaviour - to their massive detriment (in part) - and goes all the way up to the top.

[Luna Bliss]

4 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Why do you suppose Henri hurried out a newly cobbled version of his viewer that allows one to turn off PBR? On a whim? He was bored?

Yep, I've known me some scripters in my time.

[Luna Bliss]

6 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

But to suggest that this is merely about complainers on the forums is demonstrably, provably, incorrect.

I don't think the non-cult members think there are NO problems whatsoever.  I just think it's overblown.

Those having difficulties will flock to the forum or Firestorm support. All those doing well just (for the most part) go on their merry way.

Edited July 16 by Luna Bliss

[Arielle Popstar]

3 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I don't think the non-cult members think there are NO problems whatsoever.  I just think it's overblown.

Those having difficulties will flock to the forum or Firestorm support. All those doing well just (for the most part) go on their merry way.

I'm sad you're not going to mount your trusty white steed and come save us from the evil overlords I tell ya!