So what changed in the Terms of Service?

[Coffee Pancake]

22 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

lso Linden Lab could take a few points from Roblox's modesty layer policy section and publicly show what does and doesn't need a modesty layer. 

This is needed.

However the rest of your suggestion creates a giant carve out for all non human avatars. It's all fine if furries do it ?

[Ceka Cianci]

24 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

You seem to be missing my point Ceka.

How does this resolve the situation of people abusing the age system that got LL in trouble in the first place (the infamous article)? The request of a modesty layer is pointless if it isn't enforced.

Yes moan and groan, I'm going to mention Roblox.

Roblox has a modesty layer they introduced. Because of the nature of Roblox being catered for kids they enforce the modesty layer on all avatars not just child like. Now I am not proposing by any means that should be done in second life nor am I suggesting SL is Roblox.

That said however, it is enforced. What is the point of having a modesty layer and saying it cannot be turned off, if it can be simply 'turned off' by BoM. Yes, the user did it, but the user shouldn't be able to do it at all on any child mesh body if such a rule is to exist.

This has never been about the creator didn't do that so cant blame them. It is and always has been to ensure preventative measures are put in place to stop the USER from misconduct. Something that can be bypassed is just pointless. Yes you cant stop everything, but a body SPECIFICALLY made for a child avatar should ensure it cannot be turned off, otherwise throw the rule out.

Also Linden Lab could take a few points from Roblox's modesty layer policy section and publicly show what does and doesn't need a modesty layer. Roblox has pictures to show what doesn't need it for their avatars which would certainly answer @Coffee Pancake's question regarding furry and non human avatars. Can find those comparisons here: Marketplace Policy | Documentation - Roblox Creator Hub. Which I hope the same exclusions would apply for Second Life's avatars (i.e. anything non smoot/flat skin-like doesn't need one).

It doesn't and never will..

I don't know what Roblox is or what they do..

Rule changes aren't a prevention of anything, they are only a deterrent.. You're asking about prevention and I'm just talking about what happened..

LL isn't looking to break content for every bom using avatar out there.. They are just covering themselves more on the matter.

The changes aren't about protecting other users or preventing someone from doing something..They are about where the blame is going to land.. like most all rules do.

If someone is looking for prevention, you won't find it in rule changes.. Maybe changes caused from rule changes.

It's rules, not a change in the system..

 

[Alwin Alcott]

2 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

What is the point of enforcing a ruling that a modesty layer cannot be removed from the skin when you can simply remove it from the skin by wearing another BoM skin or Layer on top that also allows you to add any 'adult' looking parts back on.

móst clothing will auto alpha those parts of the skin anyway .. it only prevents the ones wearing a modesty skin not being able to get nude...

In the past i did use teens on my alts for pics .. they never needed to buy skins to get that look.. it solves nothing when people use generic bodylayers unless every skin gets it ( i see the riots already in my thoughts if they do that ) 

I know i'm not going to investigate every less tall avi if they did hide their lower parts ... and if i see it i hope it's a nice textured fabric. LL can hire me for a good wage if they need a special investigation police department.

[Alwin Alcott]

9 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

 It's all fine if furries do it ?

same as child abuse, sex with animals is prohibited in many countries also... next TOS change?

[elleevelyn]

12 hours ago, Garnet Psaltery said:

 

I didn't read it so I don't know if there is anything in it with which I disagree.  I was simply expressing the impossibility of not wanting to go into SL again.

am a bit the same.  TLDRCABR (too long, didn't read, click anyways, because reasons) 😸

 

[BilliJo Aldrin]

5 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

As someone who has helped work on RLVa, I would NOT suggest anyone try this.

It is exceptionally difficult.

RLV based outfit changing is not certain on a good day, the wardrobe have put a lot of work into making it look easy, but in practice, there is a lot that can cause this to fail.

I use rlv for outfit changes, without any silly wardrobe hud. It always works for me, I'm not sure how it could "fail".

[BilliJo Aldrin]

5 hours ago, Denim Robonaught said:

Having an adult platform at 3000 meters and a residential area on the ground is not mixing content

Is your sim moderate or adult? If you engage in activities that are restricted to adult sims (ie escorting) and your sim is moderate, you are in violation of the TOS and could be  ARed. Sim ratings don't change once you go over a certain elevation, its Moderate all the way up.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

4 hours ago, AdoraMaymistStory said:

Folks should get their head out of the gutter and mind their own business. Child avatars are not second class citizens of Governor Linden's pixelated corner of the Metaverse.

We are a reason it has evolved and always will be.

Au contraire, with the new TOS, child avatars ARE second class, restricted in appearance and relegated to certain ghettos

[Drayke Newall]

20 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

This is needed.

However the rest of your suggestion creates a giant carve out for all non human avatars. It's all fine if furries do it ?

Not really. All it simply implies is that if something is covering skin (scales for example) or doesn't represent a human skin-like appearance then it isn't needed (fur or metal for example). If that is fine for Roblox the most kiddy friendly creation place out there then surely the same is ok for LL.

20 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

It doesn't and never will..

I don't know what Roblox is or what they do..

Rule changes aren't a prevention of anything, they are only a deterrent.. You're asking about prevention and I'm just talking about what happened..

LL isn't looking to break content for every bom using avatar out there.. They are just covering themselves more on the matter.

The changes aren't about protecting other users or preventing someone from doing something..They are about where the blame is going to land.. like most all rules do.

If someone is looking for prevention, you won't find it in rule changes.. Maybe changes caused from rule changes.

It's rules, not a change in the system..

 

Right so we can expect another article of much the same, in that a person goes to a region that may be mature and not adult and sees a whole lot of content and avatars nude not complying and LL just say oh we covered ourselves with rules so no harm done. That worked so well for them this last time and the time before that etc...

Rules only have not served them well in the past or covered them. It will end up the same.

16 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

it only prevents the ones wearing a modesty skin not being able to get nude...

I understand that autoalpha does that but when all that clothing is removed then that is the problem. If wearing clothes to autoalpha those parts is all there is to it then fine that is all in the public areas. I would dare say that 99% of child avatars will be covered up in those areas when in public as has been the case in the past.

This change was the reaction to an article about a completely group locked regions i.e. private places and what went on behind closed doors (well what they though were closed doors) up in skyboxes and in houses etc. 

That's also the problem in that it doesn't prevent anyone getting nude if it can be overidden by other measures. It's a rule that is just there for no reason if not enforced. Just like in the past the same rules didn't prevent an article showing that Second Life has content that is illegal.

It may all be for Linden Lab to say 'we covered ourselves' but it does nothing for the reputation of Second Life if the same can still be done.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

3 hours ago, Nika Talaj said:

Y'know, my guess is none of these new policies will have the slightest effect on the small number of folks who are doing sexual *****.  Unless there actually were some Lindens involved, which cases will be handled more directly.

I mean, sexual ***** has already been banned for years.

Therefore, those who are doing it are already in hiding somewhere.  If I wanted to hide sexual *****, I wouldn't bother with an adult region.  There are lots more moderate regions, and that's where I'd be, in a remote moderate private region that is restricted to group, high up in a big skydome. Someplace where everyone permitted there can wear whatever they want, and do whatever pervy things their dirty souls desire.  Far from prying eyes.

Exactly, all these new rules about child avis will do NOTHING to end the problem of carnal knowledge of a minor.

It's all about LL pretending to do something to fix a problem, to make their new "partners" at Thune happy maybe?

[Ceka Cianci]

2 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

Right so we can expect another article of much the same, in that a person goes to a region that may be mature and not adult and sees a whole lot of content and avatars nude not complying and LL just say oh we covered ourselves with rules so no harm done. That worked so well for them this last time and the time before that etc...

Rules only have not served them well in the past or covered them. It will end up the same.

Ya, but they are still here and really never heard of anything happening to them from the past..

I guess covering their own butts has worked out so far..

hehehe

[Rathgrith027]

40 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

same as child abuse, sex with animals is prohibited in many countries also... next TOS change?

Ah yes, next we should ban depictions of all (adult) sexual abuse, god forbid consenting adults roleplay something that people find disgusting. And after that we can ban handholding, since that's just as degenerate.

Please don't give Linden Lab any ideas. Next thing you know they'll ban breathing.

As much as I know people find that stuff disgusting, if we banned everything we find disgusting when it isn't actually harming anyone other than the sensibilities of people who can simply close out the tab, teleport away, or log out but choose not to do so, we would live in a much, much smaller world, and be much worse off for it.

Edit: No, I am not condoning any real life actions that you are thinking of, get your head out of the gutter.

Edited May 3 by Rathgrith027

[elleevelyn]

11 hours ago, Innula Zenovka said:

As to what constitutes a child avatar, perhaps I may contribute an insight about prosecutions involving indecent images of children under 18 in the UK, something of which I have some professional experience from another life.

The point about parliament fixing the age as 18, even though our age of consent is 16, is that, unless the prosecution can prove the identity and birth date of the subject of the photograph, it's up to the jury whether they can be sure or not that the subject wasn't 18 at the time the photograph was taken.     Since a juror can't be sure that the image isn't of a young-looking 18-year-old rather than of mature-looking 16 or 17 year old,  there won't normally be a prosecution when that doubt exists.

It's only when the police and prosecutors feel confident that jurors will take one look at the photograph and say "no way is s/he  18" that there's chance of a prosecution.

I would hope LL will take a similar common-sense attitude to enforcement. 

this is pretty much also how it works where I live (NZ)

adult is 18+.  Underage is <16.  Police go after those who are clearly not 18+ looking. For sure there are some people  who do look young, but they do have to prove it legally when questioned

in SL where we can we wear anything we like, we don't have any way to prove anything. So we left with how we look to a reasonable observer.  I do not find it reasonable for someone to tell me that my avatar looks like a 19 year old going on 13. Nor would I find it reasonable to tell someone else that about their avatar.  If it looks like a 13 year old duck then is a 13 year old duck. Trying to tell me that you are actually 19 really really somehow, doesn't change what I can see: a 13 year old duck

[Rathgrith027]

2 minutes ago, elleevelyn said:

in SL where we can we wear anything we like, we don't have any way to prove anything. So we left with how we look to a reasonable observer.  I do not find it reasonable for someone to tell me that my avatar looks like a 19 year old going on 13. Nor would I find it reasonable to tell someone else that about their avatar.  If it looks like a 13 year old duck then is a 13 year old duck. Trying to tell me that you are actually 19 really really somehow, doesn't change what I can see: a 13 year old duck

Unfortunately, opinions are like agents - everyone has one, and they're all different.

What's 13 to one, is 15 to another. What's 19 to one, is probably 17 to another. I understand *why* we have an ***** ban. It doesn't make it any less of a nonsensical *****show to enforce, though.

Edited May 3 by Rathgrith027

[Alwin Alcott]

7 minutes ago, Rathgrith027 said:

Ah yes, ....

i know what you mean . but also the issue with child avi's ... that are also adults doing it ....
it is a very complicated thing how to deal with adults doing things.
What is most difficult is where to put the line.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 hour ago, Drayke Newall said:

Roblox has a modesty layer they introduced. Because of the nature of Roblox being catered for kids they enforce the modesty layer on all avatars not just child like. Now I am not proposing by any means that should be done in second life nor am I suggesting SL is Roblox.

 

LOL give them time, you will be surprised what LL could demand in the future to appease its "partners"

[elleevelyn]

4 minutes ago, Rathgrith027 said:

Unfortunately, opinions are like agents - everyone has one, and they're all different.

well as a brat neko of longstanding, and involved with a adult venue also of longstanding populated by people deep into bondage and submission both virtually and in the RL, I think I am quite well qualified to know a minor when I see one

Edited May 3 by elleevelyn
b

[Drayke Newall]

1 minute ago, Ceka Cianci said:

Ya, but they are still here and really never heard of anything happening to them from the past..

I guess covering their own butts has worked out so far..

hehehe

When I heard about the latest article that produced all this reaction I wasn't surprised. Whether it was true or not, the fact that it was published didn't surprise me at all especially if you have kept up with LL's issues regarding all of this.

I'm surprised you haven't heard of anything happening to them in the past. Even the 2019 court case where they fired their information security director (for what ever reason - it is irrelevant) and their claims in said case of high ***** numbers every quarter and those offenders simply being able to return. From this article: Second Life Is Plagued by Security Flaws, Ex-Employee Says | WIRED

"Pearlman says that her concerns were only amplified by violations of Second Life’s “*****” rules"

"According to the lawsuit, in 2018 the manager of Linden Lab’s fraud team “presented information to Linden board members in quarterly fraud reports that acknowledged a high number of such ***** [sic] violations were actually occurring on a regular basis each quarter.” The suit says Pearlman “was concerned that Linden Lab was apparently allowing the users to violate ***** rules, by not implementing appropriate procedures to prevent violations from repeating at the same levels each quarter.”

From previous information, this current article isn't an isolated case nor are we talking about a small number of offences.

Trust me. This latest article is not the first time it has been brought up that LL have been ignoring taking preventative action and simply hiding behind their rules. I am not saying what LL should or should do or if they are correct or not but when even their own teams have shown concern in the past it surely means something.

[Rathgrith027]

1 minute ago, Alwin Alcott said:

i know what you mean . but also the issue with child avi's ... that are also adults doing it ....
it is a very complicated thing how to deal with adults doing things.
What is most difficult is where to put the line.

***** not withstanding (as ***** again, is banned because of its' taboo nature *and* legally questionable status), if it is between consenting RL adults, my opinion is simple - Linden Lab should keep their hands off of it. Places like Soraya's and the sort are taboo for good reason. Linden Lab *tolerates* them. The community.. somewhat less so.

[Rathgrith027]

1 minute ago, Drayke Newall said:

When I heard about the latest article that produced all this reaction I wasn't surprised. Whether it was true or not, the fact that it was published didn't surprise me at all especially if you have kept up with LL's issues regarding all of this.

I'm surprised you haven't heard of anything happening to them in the past. Even the 2019 court case where they fired their information security director (for what ever reason - it is irrelevant) and their claims in said case of high ***** numbers every quarter and those offenders simply being able to return. From this article: Second Life Is Plagued by Security Flaws, Ex-Employee Says | WIRED

"Pearlman says that her concerns were only amplified by violations of Second Life’s “*****” rules"

"According to the lawsuit, in 2018 the manager of Linden Lab’s fraud team “presented information to Linden board members in quarterly fraud reports that acknowledged a high number of such ***** [sic] violations were actually occurring on a regular basis each quarter.” The suit says Pearlman “was concerned that Linden Lab was apparently allowing the users to violate ***** rules, by not implementing appropriate procedures to prevent violations from repeating at the same levels each quarter.”

From previous information, this current article isn't an isolated case nor are we talking about a small number of offences.

Trust me. This latest article is not the first time it has been brought up that LL have been ignoring taking preventative action and simply hiding behind their rules. I am not saying what LL should or should do or if they are correct or not but when even their own teams have shown concern in the past it surely means something.

A word of warning, that Kavya is not exactly a trustworthy source. Court documents from LL legal counsel rebuked a lot of what Kavya accused LL of doing, and Kavya was accused of.. a lot of things that put her competency into question.

And for those who say that they could just be lying..perjury is a thing.

[Alwin Alcott]

8 minutes ago, Rathgrith027 said:

***** not withstanding (as ***** again, is banned because of its' taboo nature *and* legally questionable status), if it is between consenting RL adults, my opinion is simple - Linden Lab should keep their hands off of it. Places like Soraya's and the sort are taboo for good reason. Linden Lab *tolerates* them. The community.. somewhat less so.

sorry but the problem is that it's nót taboo nature and not everywhere a questionable status. That's what we like to think but that is a false thought. Morals are a learne and teached mechanism, not baked into the genes. 

In SL it áre all adults consenting.

I hate the abuse in real and the presentation of it in SL as any western civilised human. But we don't solve the real problem with the things that are announced now.

Edited May 3 by Alwin Alcott

[elleevelyn]

9 minutes ago, Rathgrith027 said:

What's 13 to one, is 15 to another. What's 19 to one, is probably 17 to another. I understand *why* we have an ***** ban. It doesn't make it any less of a nonsensical *****show to enforce, though.

just on this

in the RL the authorities work on the under 16 over 18 rule.  For the largest number of people there is a big gap between the two in appearance

[Rathgrith027]

6 minutes ago, elleevelyn said:

well as a brat neko of longstanding, and involved with a adult venue also of longstanding populated by people deep into bondage and submission both virtually and in the RL, I think I am quite well qualified to know a minor when I see one

I never said you didn't - but again, what you assume from what you perceive is inherently subjective.

[Rathgrith027]

3 minutes ago, elleevelyn said:

just on this

in the RL the authorities work on the under 16 over 18 rule.  For the largest number of people there is a big gap between the two in appearance

Yes, but here's the problem - you are applying real life methods to SL - An avatar's metaphysical age cannot be defined because it can shift and change at will. We don't have legal documents to go off of. We have to go off of looks and behavior alone.

 

3 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

I hate the abuse in real and the presentation of it in SL as any western civilised human. But we don't solve the real problem with the things that are announced now.

I hate RL abuse as well. I don't think anyone here doesn't. But at the same time, getting rid of it in SL, or in other simulated or fictional environments does not make the problem go away.

Edited May 3 by Rathgrith027

[Drayke Newall]

6 minutes ago, Rathgrith027 said:

A word of warning, that Kavya is not exactly a trustworthy source. Court documents from LL legal counsel rebuked a lot of what Kavya accused LL of doing, and Kavya was accused of.. a lot of things that put her competency into question.

And for those who say that they could just be lying..perjury is a thing.

True, however, some would and are arguing on the depths of the internet and elsewhere that there is a big coincidence that 5 years ago such accusations were published and here we are again with similar accusations.

I'm not saying any of it is true or that LL are lying or what have you however, the coincidence is there and I am not the only one that has seen the same coincidence.

Edited May 3 by Drayke Newall