What Justification Is There For No Mod Permissions?

[Love Zhaoying]

40 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Well, one thing I have learned from this thread is who not to buy from even if their items have modify perms.  Good info to pass along.  Thanks!

Idea: Publish a list! A "boycott" list!

[Ayashe Ninetails]

8 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Sure. This isn't a moral issue. There are good reasons for the creation and use of premade backdrops.

I don't think it's "unethical" to use (or create them). I just think it's boring -- and it does contribute to the sense one sometimes gets in SL of a sort of dull, consumerist monoculture, in which everyone wears the same mesh head, the same mesh body, the same popular hairstyle, and the same LBD.

I agree with the body/head/hair/clothing sentiment here, but you probably could've guessed that seeing as how I spend a good chunk of time as some random thing. I'd rather not log in at all if I had to wear only what was popular.

As far as backdrops go, I'm not aware of which creators make theirs no-mod off the top of my head. I am absolutely swimming in backdrops from a bunch of different shops, and most are modify. The tiny handful I own that are no-mod can still be modified, technically, by introducing entirely new items into the scene, which is how I usually get around all that. Drop a prim and create a new floor, do the same for walls, add furniture, etc. etc. You know the drill. Like you said, though, the baked lights and shadows can be an absolute pain, but ehhhh, I manage. Sorta. 

As for the entire mod vs. no-mod thing, it entirely depends for me on what it is I'm buying. The only time I really dive into it is when it comes to home/garden items, landscaping, and weirdly, food. Decorating and building items, furniture, homes, skyboxes, etc. - I'll strongly favor mod. Food, either way, but I do love mod because I use plenty of it when making accessories for some of my avatars (like foodie antlers - and yes, you can grab yourself a cup of coffee by clicking on them! Imagine my surprise to find out food and drink givers still work when all linked up and attached to my head). Artwork - I buy both, but I do like mod so I can resize.

I don't really worry about mod heads or bodies or anything, but the majority of my heads are modify, too. In fact, I think clothing and shoes (and maybe skins?) make up the bulk of my no-mod stuff, and I don't personally need those to be modify. Hell, even my pets are modify.

I'm not mad at creators who choose the no-mod route, though. That's their choice and in most cases, it's not really a big deal to me at all and I'll still buy from them. As long as I can continue sticking weird things on my head and customizing my homes/backdrops, I'm good.

[Codex Alpha]

Maybe a solution. Creators switch to creating mesh only, unwrapping it to accommodate tiling textures (because thats all someone can truly 'modify' 'their' product) and people can texture it for themselves.

I know it would save me a TON of time, as texturing itself is specific, made efficient, etc but apparently that part has been ignored from earlier being one of my justifications.

The ultimate  "You modify" "You express yourself creatively" product strategy out there.

I could really get onboard with such a movement LOL.

Then I don't have to worry if I picked the Wrong table cloth design, or the wrong wood, or the wrong candle wax and color. Just leave it to the end user.. Man I could pump this stuff out big time

Edited May 1 by Codex Alpha

[Codex Alpha]

40 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

 

The real punishment is having seen some of the stuff people in SL create and call artistic.

And I love it all. I support all creators at any level and what they want to do with them.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

4 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

As far as backdrops go, I'm not aware of which creators make theirs no-mod off the top of my head.

No, it's not common. I know of two makers who do this -- or, at least, the things I own from them are no-mod. I can't vouch for the rest, because . . . I stopped buying from them!

5 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

As for the entire mod vs. no-mod thing, it entirely depends for me on what it is I'm buying. The only time I really dive into it is when it comes to home/garden items, landscaping, and weirdly, food. Decorating and building items, furniture, homes, skyboxes, etc. - I'll strongly favor mod. Food, either way, but I do love mod because I use plenty of it when making accessories for some of my avatars (like foodie antlers - and yes, you can grab yourself a cup of coffee by clicking on them! Imagine my surprise to find out food and drink givers still work when all linked up and attached to my head). Artwork - I buy both, but I do like mod so I can resize.

Yeah, I am not religious in my avoidance of no-mod stuff. I worry about it mostly with regard to structures, furniture, decorative items (including food) . . . and accessories (hats, purses, jewelry, and so on). I don't care so much about clothing because it's almost always rigged anyway, and I find that tinting is usually a not-very-satisfactory way of modifying a dress or top.

 

9 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

I'm not mad at creators who choose the no-mod route, though. That's their choice and in most cases, it's not really a big deal to me at all and I'll still buy from them. As long as I can continue sticking weird things on my head and customizing my homes/backdrops, I'm good.

No, I'm not "mad" at all. It's just another consideration I take into account when I decide to buy something. For something like furniture, it's a very important criterion. For hair, say, or a hat . . . probably less so.

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

4 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

Maybe a solution. Creators switch to creating mesh only, unwrapping it to accommodate tiling textures (because thats all someone can truly 'modify' 'their' product) and people can texture it for themselves.

I know it would save me a TON of time, as texturing itself is specific, made efficient, etc but apparently that part has been ignored from earlier being one of my justifications.

The ultimate  "You modify" "You express yourself creatively" product strategy out there.

I could really get onboard with such a movement LOL.

Then I don't have to worry if I picked the Wrong table cloth design, or the wrong wood, or the wrong candle wax and color. Just leave it to the end user.. Man I could pump this stuff out big time

 

 

 

You do realize that there are creators who do almost exactly this? Albeit, usually for full perm items?

I wouldn't buy it unless you included at the least UV and AO maps, but . . . sure! Give it a shot.

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

3 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

Maybe a solution. Creators switch to creating mesh only, unwrapping it to accommodate tiling textures (because thats all someone can truly 'modify' 'their' product) and people can texture it for themselves.

I know it would save me a TON of time, as texturing itself is specific, made efficient, etc but apparently that part has been ignored from earlier being one of my justifications.

The ultimate  "You modify" "You express yourself creatively" product strategy out there.

I could really get onboard with such a movement LOL.

Then I don't have to worry if I picked the Wrong table cloth design, or the wrong wood, or the wrong candle wax and color. Just leave it to the end user.. Man I could pump this stuff out big time

 

 

 

I'd also love to see more creators provide matching modular building components, texture trim-sheets, etc. alongside prefab buildings so that residents can customize buildings or create entirely new ones.  Doing so would mean more shared textures between assets and less strain on hardware on both the server and client side.

With the advent of PBR now would be a great time for creators to set a new precedent since there is so much content which can potentially be optimized and improved using PBR.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

1 minute ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

No, it's not common. I know of two makers who do this -- or, at least, the things I own from them are no-mod. I can't vouch for the rest, because . . . I stopped buying from them!

Yeah, it's very rare! There is a trend lately, though, to make backdrops verrrrrrrrrry high Li, so I absolutely need that to be mod so I can tone that ish down in a sandbox and deconstruct it a bit before I try to drop 350 prims on my plot. 😂

 

4 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Yeah, I am not religious in my avoidance of no-mod stuff. I worry about it mostly with regard to structures, furniture, decorative items (including food) . . . and accessories (hats, purses, jewelry, and so on). I don't care so much about clothing because it's almost always rigged anyway, and I find that tinting is usually a not-very-satisfactory way of modifying a dress or top.

Yep same! I'll even go as far as saying I don't need jewelry to be mod, either. I like the rigged stuff. Unrigged necklaces drive me nuts.

Fortunately, mod is very common in most of those other areas, so I haven't really seen too much of an issue personally.

 

5 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

No, I'm not "mad" at all. It's just another consideration I take into account when I decide to buy something. For something like furniture, it's a very important criterion. For hair, say, or a hat . . . probably less so.

Awww sorry Scylla, I didn't mean to imply you were mad. That's just one of my expressions (well, technically "I ain't mad" is). Though I do know some do get pretty mad about it all. Doubt that really helps much.

[Codex Alpha]

1 minute ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

I'd also love to see more creators provide matching modular building components, texture trim-sheets, etc. alongside prefab buildings so that residents can customize buildings or create entirely new ones.  Doing so would mean more shared textures between assets and less strain on hardware on both the server and client side.

With the advent of PBR now would be a great time for creators to set a new precedent since there is so much content which can potentially be optimized and improved using PBR.

Yes, that's where I've been at for the last year and really honing that to make super efficient 1-2 material builds that are fast and make use of all that awesome stuff. Taken me a while to learn everything, being self-taught (and sharing lots with others and giving lots of stuff away for free and mod, etc!), but this kind of attitude in SL really bums me out - as all this texture planning is a lot of work - so satisfying when done, but why would one want to share anymore or do the work with so much entitlement and disrespect going round?

I'm all onboard for making SL faster and more efficient. I more than most am aware of the lag textures cause, it's been the bane of my existence and enemy of my computer for as long as I been here.

[Extrude Ragu]

3 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

share anymore or do the work with so much entitlement and disrespect going round?

'Sharing' what you make, and 'Selling' what you make are two different things.

If you don't want people to care about the product they receive, don't ask for their hard earned money, not hard

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

2 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

Yes, that's where I've been at for the last year and really honing that to make super efficient 1-2 material builds that are fast and make use of all that awesome stuff. Taken me a while to learn everything, being self-taught (and sharing lots with others and giving lots of stuff away for free and mod, etc!), but this kind of attitude in SL really bums me out - as all this texture planning is a lot of work - so satisfying when done, but why would one want to share anymore or do the work with so much entitlement and disrespect going round?

I've always loved making modular building components and I really feel like they're woefully under-utilized in SL.

5 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

I'm all onboard for making SL faster and more efficient. I more than most am aware of the lag textures cause, it's been the bane of my existence and enemy of my computer for as long as I been here.

After seeing the recent thread about how much people's computers cost I did a quick google search and found that my current system has a value of approximately $350 so yes I'm painfully aware of the toll a texture heavy environment can take on my poor, passively-cooled GPU! 😅

[Codex Alpha]

4 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

'Sharing' what you make, and 'Selling' what you make are two different things.

If you don't want people to care about the product they receive, don't ask for their hard earned money, not hard

Many of us have learned from, taught others, shared our knowledge, our assets all our stuff with others. Creators on SL are a mixed lot, so stop painting them all with the same brush. Appreciate the work that goes into these things, and consider why some would choose to no-mod their items and accept it. You don't have to buy it, but I would say you're going to far if you decide to do some crusade to boycott a particular creator or to disparage them or cause them loss of reputation or status in the community because they don't do what you would like.

[Codex Alpha]

2 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

I've always loved making modular building components and I really feel like they're woefully under-utilized in SL.

After seeing the recent thread about how much people's computers cost I did a quick google search and found that my current system has a value of approximately $350 so yes I'm painfully aware of the toll a texture heavy environment can take on my poor, passively-cooled GPU! 😅

Re: wish more modular kits. It's probably for the reasons I've outlined. With mod enabled, anything you build modularly can be unlinked and used as a building set and at a much lower price than is worth to put the time into it.

The benefit of having an outdated computer (mine is severely behind due to 2020) is that if what you build works on your computer, you know it will  work on the average computer out there! Like if your world runs well on  your potato, you know it can be seen on mobile or other formats too!

[Arielle Popstar]

/Me wonders how many creators would make their items No Mod if they had the option of allowing their product to be modded and if then put for sale by the buyer, benefit financially from the sale of the modification. So if Creator puts out a product that allows retexturing, they would still get a kickback from the sale of a retextured mesh. 

Seems that would be a more agreeable solution to allowing modifiable products.

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

1 minute ago, Codex Alpha said:

Re: wish more modular kits. It's probably for the reasons I've outlined. With mod enabled, anything you build modularly can be unlinked and used as a building set and at a much lower price than is worth to put the time into it.

I understand that from a merchants perspective this may seem like an unreasonable return for the amount of time invested however I think the benefits to the platform overall really do compensate for that.  An increase in creativity within SL and wider availability of well made modifiable content taking advantage of the latest features would increase the overall quality of content in SL and potentially draw in more users, which would benefit everyone.

In an ideal world some talented creators would wake up one day and choose philanthropic benevolence instead of capitalistic violence and release a bunch of free full perms modular kits with licensing that permits anyone to resell their creations on the condition that they include the entire kit with original permissions alongside whatever (modifiable) prefab buildings they create.

13 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

The benefit of having an outdated computer (mine is severely behind due to 2020) is that if what you build works on your computer, you know it will  work on the average computer out there! Like if your world runs well on  your potato, you know it can be seen on mobile or other formats too!

100%.

Also Kudos to LL for their work on the PBR viewer which, despite my early fears, didn't make my PC burst into flames the second I turned on all the features!

[Bree Giffen]

One reason why a creator will have no-mod is because someone could break apart their product and use the prims to make an ersatz or dangerous product with their name baked into it. 

Scripted items are usually no-mod because it's all just text that can be copied forever.

The ability to take apart something that is mod and recreating the object is another reason. Everything used to be made out of prims so copying from looking at mod items was a possibility. I would do this with freebie items when I was learning to build in sandboxes.

As for animations, I'd say my choice of mod or no-mod was made purely out of child-like innocence.

[Love Zhaoying]

Idea: Merchants should accept "returns" if items are not to our liking. For example, if we only want no-mod.

[Extrude Ragu]

5 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

Appreciate the work that goes into these things, and consider why some would choose to no-mod their items and accept it.

"You will take what you're given, and you will learn to enjoy it"

Now where have I heard something like that before🤔

6 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

cause them loss of reputation or status in the community because they don't do what you would like.

I'd suggest that a creator trying to shut down a discussion about the ethics of mod rights does more reputational harm to themselves than letting a resident freely voice their discontent about the morals of practises of creators in a thread about justification and morals of the practises of creators.

Espescially so when the same person insinuates that the person doing the complaining is doing things they have not done, such as naming and shaming specific creators or calling for a boycot.

🤷‍♂️

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

30 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

Appreciate the work that goes into these things, and consider why some would choose to no-mod their items and accept it.

"You will take what you're given, and you will learn to enjoy it"

Parents? "You'll eat everything on your plate, or sit there until you do!"

[Extrude Ragu]

10 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Idea: Merchants should accept "returns" if items are not to our liking. For example, if we only want no-mod.

I would very much appreciate this feature. It does happen now and then that the permissions filters reset without me noticing and I've purchased a no-mod item by accident.

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

32 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

Appreciate the work that goes into these things, and consider why some would choose to no-mod their items and accept it.

 

3 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

"You will take what you're given, and you will learn to enjoy it"

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

I'd suggest that a creator trying to shut down a discussion about the ethics of mod rights does more reputational harm to themselves than letting a resident freely voice their discontent about the morals of practises of creators in a thread about justification and morals of the practises of creators.

Perhaps the fact they already have controls over reviews, gives them a sense of entitlement? How dare someone disagree where I can't shut them down!

[Extrude Ragu]

7 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

 

Radical though it may be, it is my interpretation and it belongs to me

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

1 minute ago, Extrude Ragu said:

Radical though it may be, it is my interpretation and it belongs to me

Well I can't exactly defend a creators right to make questionable decisions regarding the permissions of the content they create while simultaneously criticizing you for what I might consider to be questionable interpretations of other peoples posts, so touché, I guess!  

[Stephanie Misfit]

16 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

I would very much appreciate this feature. It does happen now and then that the permissions filters reset without me noticing and I've purchased a no-mod item by accident.

Being able to get returns is all well and good in theory, but what about for things like clothing, shoes and accessories? People could purchase, wear the item to an event, take photos for their blog, and then ask for a return. If returns worked this way, people could have an endless wardrobe without paying a cent. I think that some of the same concerns would apply for furnishings and homes, too.