Diversity and Inclusion in Second Life

[Ingrid Ingersoll]

These threads are often frustrating because there is such a huge push back anytime someone says anything about misogyny in sl. Let's be real. It's everywhere in SL. It's not against the TOS. And it's not against the law. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. 

[Luna Bliss]

2 minutes ago, Ingrid Ingersoll said:

Many people who are abused end up with low self esteem and then continue to seek abuse

Yeah I just dealt with someone severely abused in RL and so got into unhealthy relationships in SL. She had a relationship for years in SL with this guy who would berate her mercilessly, to the point where she couldn't even breathe, and then go into a comforting regime later that day.  So he was like a tormentor and a savior.  She'd been abused as a child and is why she got into this pattern.  Thankfully she's gotten some help and hopefully the next relationship will be a healthy one.

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

Sort of like claiming other people must have unresolved childhood trauma or they just aren't enlightened enough.

That sounds oddly familiar.

[Cinnamon Mistwood]

Yeah, I've got nothing to add and no way to make this discussion apply to SL.  I now know who is emotionally ill and lacking the intelligence it takes to see the world from any perspective but one.  Black and white.  Good and bad.  Only my view of the world is correct.  Anyone who thinks differently is ill and needs to be fixed. 

So anyway...

Sl - your world, my rules on how you should live it, my opinion only on right and wrong.

[Luna Bliss]

4 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

It's an old trope that people who are into BDSM play must have mental problems

I'm not speaking to BDSM play...a kind of roleplaying really where pain can occur.  I'm talking about women who are actually re-abusing themselves.  It's all too common in SL.  And much of it is on an emotional level (not physical).

[Love Zhaoying]

Step 1: Bring up diversity

Step 2: Someone brings up Women's issues and Misogyny

Step 3: Someone says, "those aren't real women, they are men"

Step 4: Someone says, "those women are experiencing misogyny due to their own issues"

See how this happens?!?

[Luna Bliss]

Just now, Cinnamon Mistwood said:

I now know who is emotionally ill and lacking the intelligence it takes to see the world from any perspective but one.  Black and white.  Good and bad. 

You've misunderstood what I said.  I'm talking about women who are truly re-abusing themselves under the guise of calling it a 'kink'....I'm not speaking to BDSM roleplay where nobody is actually harmed.

[Ingrid Ingersoll]

4 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

It's an old trope that people who are into BDSM play must have mental problems, just as homosexuality used to be considered a mental illness by therapists and still is considered a kind of moral illness by some people coming from a religious perspective.

It's called "the cycle of abuse". It's real, it's not "an old trope". https://www.verywellmind.com/the-cycle-of-sexual-abuse-22460#:~:text=People who were sexually abused,as a cycle of abuse.

Does that account for everyone into misogyny as a kink? No. But it does for some women. 

[Persephone Emerald]

1 minute ago, Cinnamon Mistwood said:

Yeah, I've got nothing to add and no way to make this discussion apply to SL.  I now know who is emotionally ill and lacking the intelligence it takes to see the world from any perspective but one.  Black and white.  Good and bad.  Only my view of the world is correct.  Anyone who thinks differently is ill and needs to be fixed. 

So anyway...

Sl - your world, my rules on how you should live it, my opinion only on right and wrong.

Sounds like narcissism.

[Rowan Amore]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Step 1: Bring up diversity

Step 2: Someone brings up Women's issues and Misogyny

Step 3: Someone says, "those aren't real women, they are men"

Step 4: Someone says, "those women are experiencing misogyny due to their own issues"

See how this happens?!?

But I thought all the women were men.  Personally, I don't put up with that crap in SL or RL.  If some choose to engage with misogynists, that is their right.  Pull that on me?  Good luck.  

How exactly does one expect to banish it from SL?  People bring their RL issues and biases into SL.   You can't put a blanket ban on everything anyone finds offensive or distasteful in some way.  

[Luna Bliss]

6 minutes ago, Ingrid Ingersoll said:

11 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

the thread will close fast i'm affraid, the witch is on the broom again.

Which witch? The rl women claiming that misogyny exists in second life?

Count me in then. One of them horrible women. 

Hey I'm the biggest witch to Alvin...stop trying to steal my spotlight!  hehe

[Zalificent Corvinus]

1 minute ago, Rowan Amore said:

But I thought all the women were men.

Funny that, isn't it.

I mean, traditionally the "All the females are Guys In Real Life because women don't use computers or play games" trope has always been a misogynistic male thing.

Kind of odd seeing it from  "woman".

Can't decide if a) "Guys in Real Life", or b) "Hypocrites", or c) "Both".

 

6 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Pull that on me?  Good luck.  

But by not swallowing the kool-aid and accepting the blame, you are failing to do your part in the "Struggle", and thus blatantly to blame!

 

/me pauses, frowns and then injects herself with Anti-"Shopping Mall Psychology Fail" Serum.

Damn but their BS is infectious.

[Persephone Emerald]

6 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I'm not speaking to BDSM play...a kind of roleplaying really where pain can occur.  I'm talking about women who are actually re-abusing themselves.  It's all too common in SL.  And much of it is on an emotional level (not physical).

Ok. Yes, some people end up repeating toxic cycles in their life - SL and RL. However, we can't know the motivations of a person behind an avatar just by looking at them and their profile. We don't know the real race or gender of people. We don't know if they have emotional or mental problems (unless we've talked with them and interacted with them for a good long while).

Some people engage in racists and misogynistic roleplay in SL. That is their right as SL exists now. I question whether this particular type of freedom is good for Second Life and Linden Lab. I don't want across the board censorship, but maybe LL can tone down some of the less savory aspects of SL a bit with better oversight and enforcement of their existing rules?

[Ingrid Ingersoll]

10 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

How exactly does one expect to banish it from SL?  People bring their RL issues and biases into SL.   You can't put a blanket ban on everything anyone finds offensive or distasteful in some way.  

I think acknowledging that exists in sl is a good first step. Official support from LL for women's day would be great.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

44 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

If I want to give some food to a hungry person who has little food I am not discriminating against a person with a full fridge by not providing food for them too.  I'm simply helping the disadvantaged person.   This is what diversity and inclusion actions hope to achieve -- to help the person with less.

the trouble is you want to take the food from the person that has the full fridge.

[Love Zhaoying]

14 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

How exactly does one expect to banish it from SL? 

Exactly. But as with other things, possibly some type of mitigation should be possible. 

Not pretend it doesn't exist. (Like CP and AP..)

I propose that the specific issue has most likely always been in SL - so there is nothing new being discussed on that topic.

Does it impact "actual diversity"? If it keeps "actual" women away, yes (by my own flavor of common sense).

[Love Zhaoying]

27 minutes ago, Ingrid Ingersoll said:

These threads are often frustrating because there is such a huge push back anytime someone says anything about misogyny in sl. Let's be real. It's everywhere in SL. It's not against the TOS. And it's not against the law. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. 

Possibly "empowering women in SL so they don't put up with chit"..?

[Luna Bliss]

4 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

21 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I'm not speaking to BDSM play...a kind of roleplaying really where pain can occur.  I'm talking about women who are actually re-abusing themselves.  It's all too common in SL.  And much of it is on an emotional level (not physical).

Ok. Yes, some people end up repeating toxic cycles in their life - SL and RL. However, we can't know the motivations of a person behind an avatar just by looking at them and their profile. We don't know the real race or gender of people. We don't know if they have emotional or mental problems (unless we've talked with them and interacted with them for a good long while).

Some people engage in racists and misogynistic roleplay in SL. That is their right as SL exists now. I question whether this particular type of freedom is good for Second Life and Linden Lab. I don't want across the board censorship, but maybe LL can tone down some of the less savory aspects of SL a bit with better oversight and enforcement of their existing rules?

I really can't see why you're addressing all this to me.  I simply cited that the fact that some women seek actual abuse in SL should not be used as a justification to accept it's occurrence.   This is not a reason we should accept the misogyny we see in SL. If you remember, both Arielle and Rowan (more indirectly) seem to think it does.

Yes, it's hard to sort out due to roleplay.  I'm not roleplaying though, in SL and all my friends have real relationships in SL (some mixed with RL), and that's what I'm usually speaking to.

[Ingrid Ingersoll]

2 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Possibly "empowering women in SL so they don't put up with chit"..?

I don't know honestly, I'm not an expert when it comes to making policy in online games. It's hard to avoid in sl and really kind of embedded in the culture for a lot of reasons. 

Edited April 11 by Ingrid Ingersoll

[Persephone Emerald]

2 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I really can't see why you're addressing all this to me.  I simply cited that the fact that some women seek actual abuse in SL should not be used as a justification to accept it's occurrence.   This is not a reason we should accept the misogyny we see in SL. If you remember, both Arielle and Rowan (more indirectly) seem to think it does.

Yes, it's hard to sort out due to roleplay.  I'm not roleplaying though, in SL and all my friends have real relationships in SL (some mixed with RL), and that's what I'm usually speaking to.

I quoted you because you'd posted this idea more. I realize that others have been saying much the same thing.

If I didn't make it clear enough I'll say it again, we don't usually know the race, gender, mental or emotional state of the people behind the avatars. Some female avatars are played by men in RL. Others are played by actual women in RL. If these people get off by seeing women being abused or by portraying being abused in SL, that's their business,...as long as their business isn't hurting Linden Lab's business.

[Luna Bliss]

15 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

If I want to give some food to a hungry person who has little food I am not discriminating against a person with a full fridge by not providing food for them too.  I'm simply helping the disadvantaged person.   This is what diversity and inclusion actions hope to achieve -- to help the person with less.

the trouble is you want to take the food from the person that has the full fridge.

It would depend on just how full that fridge is.  In the US there's extreme wealth inequality, and I see nothing wrong with taxing the super rich more and funneling that money to those without.

[Love Zhaoying]

Ok, so far we've discuss Diversity in SL as it relates to people of color, and women.

I assume that we don't need to debate Diversity in SL as it relates to LGBTQIA+?  

Example potential "issue" where SL could theoretically do better:  Parcel owners can decide who to allow / discriminate against.  This could be for any reason, or no reason. Women, PoC, LGBT+..can all be on the "not allowed list".

I don't really care to get into "discrimination against youth" on the Diversity in SL front, because of the ongoing controversies.

Furries? "We all know" that parcel owners, etc. can discriminate against Furries / non-Furries all day and all night freely (just like they can with any other group and individual for any reason, or no reason at all).

With all these "exceptions" - is SL "diverse"? Is it "Inclusive"? Or do we just look the other way since "SL is diverse/inclusive and we can't do anything about individual parcel owners"?

 

[Ingrid Ingersoll]

2 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

If these people get off by seeing women being abused or by portraying being abused in SL, that's their business,...as long as their business isn't hurting Linden Lab's business.

I would imagine it is honestly. As a woman, I've thought about getting rid of my premium account a lot lately. 

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

I quoted you because you'd posted this idea more. I realize that others have been saying much the same thing.

If I didn't make it clear enough I'll say it again, we don't usually know the race, gender, mental or emotional state of the people behind the avatars. Some female avatars are played by men in RL. Others are played by actual women in RL. If these people get off by seeing women being abused or by portraying being abused in SL, that's their business,...as long as their business isn't hurting Linden Lab's business.

The people being quoted SOUND as if they are victim-blaming. Maybe.

But what can ya do? Ya can't fix Second Life, ya can't convince people to "rebel" against the current dynamic, etc.

Pop Psychology to the Rescue! Explain what you can't fix.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Ingrid Ingersoll said:

5 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

as long as their business isn't hurting Linden Lab's business.

I would imagine it is honestly.

That was my thought with one of my earlier posts. It's not a good look for LL.