Land Sales Crash

[Zalificent Corvinus]

2 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Sure, if I were redesigning SL land "privacy" I'd retain the ability to hide agents from those outside the parcel as well as from agents on the parcel's ignore/derender list. The difference from all the current kludginess is that those ignored agents need never care about any of that, they just pass through, maybe enjoy the scenery, no fuss no bother. Rather like surfing a web page.

So, basically, you think that "explorers" should have the RIGHT to commit "Criminal Trespass", providing they shout "Don't call the police, I have my eyes shut and cannot see you".

Interesting.

Good job you are not in charge of determining Laws about Criminal Trespass in RL, OR SL.

Why is the concept of "private property is private" so hard for you to accept?

Is this some "digital hippie" thing, or a "professional housebreaker" thing, or some "freewebz warez" thing or what?

 

Doesn't really matter which thing it is, all that matters is that it's a failed thing. private property is private, trespassers get the orbs foot broken off in their over-entitled asses.

LL not only allow banlines on mainland, but in the case of the Official "Behind Closed Doors" policy, actually REQUIRE them, and they allow security orbs too, and zero second warnings, and punt kicking the Trespasser Trash back where they came from.

 

[Diablo Lioncourt]

Land sales are not down now because everybody didn't get what they wanted with mainland 15-20 years ago.

Land sales are not down because everybody isn't running their land business the way any certain land business owners want.

As has been pointed out, the most significant likely factors in sales down are

       -Belli migration

       -Post-pandemic slump /inflation. 

I personally feel this thread has run its course and am done participating. I appreciate almost everyone's input.

There's a thread for Mainland 2.0. Consider replying to it as well:)

 

Edited January 15 by Diablo Lioncourt

[Qie Niangao]

Oh my! Both Diablo and Prok have abandoned the thread, whatever shall we do? 🙄

"Belli migration" isn't the root cause of anything. There are reasons Belli has more appeal. The Lab found the secret sauce, or a sauce, not so secret, that is winning out over their first attempt with "mainland 15-20 years ago." 

It's probably prudent not to change anything on Mainland in response; it's certainly easier—and probably more profitable—to just let it die off slowly, like first-gen Linden Homes. Kinda disappointing for those of us still attached to Mainland though.

Maybe there's room for a Mainland replacement, to the extent it augments Belli. I just think the buckshot-brandishing porch sitter market may not be that lucrative.

[encidious Opus]

15 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

When LL decides mainland is too big, too empty and too much of a drain, they WILL start eliminating sims, and too bad for that person who has one parcel on an otherwise empty sim.

I have never seen LL claim eminent domain. There are some old blighted micro parcels screwing up Linden protected right of ways etc that havent been used for close to two decades. But still LL honors those residents' land. Although I don't venture outside two mainland continents.

[Persephone Emerald]

16 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

Being able to buy and sell mainland 2.0 does nothing to eliminate the problem of land flippers. 

I never said land flippers were a problem. They're just part of the SL economy. People who want to get rid of land have choices in how to do so. People who want to aquire land have choices in how to do so. Both include selling to or buying from land flippers. If people don't want to pay a high price from a land flipper, they can request abandoned land, talk to their neighbors about buying their land, or buy land when it's priced lower.

16 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

I never said Mainland 2.0 needs to be adult. LL will never operate adult homes, there will never be adult Belli homes, either on Belli , or on zindra.

So does Belli just keep getting bigger and bigger while mainland gets emptier and emptier?

Mainland 2.0 offers an entirely new way of aquiring land, one that eliminates the need for landflippers, as well as eliminating the more annoying aspects of regular mainland.

But oh no, that's never been done, so it simply can't be done.

When LL decides mainland is too big, too empty and too much of a drain, they WILL start eliminating sims, and too bad for that person who has one parcel on an otherwise empty sim.

LL is already involved in Adult regions with Zindra & Horizons. Since they apply a lazze faire attitude with these, they could apply the same attitude with another Adult residential continent. Horizons has some problems, but occupancy isn't one of them. As long as there are people who prefer to live in Adult regions rather than General or Moderate ones, LL won't lack for users who will pay Premium to have a home in such a region.

LL doesn't need to worry about losing Mainland tenants to Bellisseria, because either way they make money. The people who might worry are estate landlords. When the old Linden Homes were created, many Mainland landlords suddenly lost their market. Those who were able to offer a better experience survived. The net result was better housing choices for users. Capitalism at work.

Meanwhile, LL can sink the old Linden Home regions when they become empty enough, but they can't sink empty regions in the middle of Mainland. They need to do something to keep those regions paying for themselves, but I don't think it makes sense for them to have different rules than the regions surrounding them.

When LL created the old Linden Home regions, that had never been done before. When they created Horizons, that had never been done before. When they created Bellisseria, that had never been done before. When they created Linden Home demo regions, that had never been done before. When the created the new Welcome Hub, with different kinds of SL experience demo regions, this had never been done before either. After 20 years in the virtual world business, they've learned a bit about what works and what doesn't, and one thing that they know doesn't work is refusing innovation. They also know not to invest time and money on every wild scheme that someone suggests.

Edited January 15 by Persephone Emerald

[Theresa Tennyson]

1 hour ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

So, basically, you think that "explorers" should have the RIGHT to commit "Criminal Trespass", providing they shout "Don't call the police, I have my eyes shut and cannot see you".

Interesting.

Good job you are not in charge of determining Laws about Criminal Trespass in RL

 

The people that do generally require intent on the trespasser's side and/or notice on the property owner's side.

https://www.justia.com/criminal/offenses/other-crimes/criminal-trespass/

[Rowan Amore]

Love when someone drags RL laws into SL regarding property.  But if you do that, we can also cite the Castle Doctrine and work that into SL.  While I can't nor do I need to use deadly force on anyone entering my property, I have that right.  Ban lines and orbs instead of a shotgun.  😁

[Qie Niangao]

50 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

While I can't nor do I need to use deadly force on anyone entering my property, I have that right.

Uhh… it imght be prudent to seek counsel before killing a trespasser unless they posed a legitimate threat of serious bodily harm. Even in Texas.

[elleevelyn]

10 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

 

My understanding is there was a certain class of users who would intentionally cause problems because they wanted to be on the "police blotter."

this was true. Ended up llike a game leaderboard for griefers

[elleevelyn]

7 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Maybe there's room for a Mainland replacement, to the extent it augments Belli. I just think the buckshot-brandishing porch sitter market may not be that lucrative.

yes on the first, and no on the second

on the first a new mainland could be

- Bring Your Own Home

-  fixed size parcels of varying sizes say 512, 1024, 2048,4096,8192 & 16384. No subdividiing

- prepay tier (+ Linden admin/setup fee) to obtain/buy parcel then must have the 1st month tier in your account  Billed monthly in advance thereafter

- can have as many parcels as you want

- no discount for larger holdings. Price per sqm is the same

- parcels can be rented and traded/sold between residents

- to obtain parcel direct from Linden file ticket, pay Linden admin/setup  fee plus 1st month tier

on the second. It may be lucrative

should the Damage 2.0 system eventuate then buckshot wielding porch sitters all be marched off to the new Outland continent(s)

be quite fun if you a scallywag. doing drivebys of grumpy buckshotters sitting on their porches yelling Get Off My Lawn You Scallywag !! assuming that Linden don't give any Damage 2.0 control to the parcel owner

[Gabriele Graves]

7 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

I just think the buckshot-brandishing porch sitter market may not be that lucrative.

Oh I get it now, you are trying to compete with Zalificent for outrageous and florid descriptions.  *check*

[Love Zhaoying]

7 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Oh my! Both Diablo and Prok have abandoned the thread, whatever shall we do? 🙄

"Belli migration" isn't the root cause of anything. There are reasons Belli has more appeal. The Lab found the secret sauce, or a sauce, not so secret, that is winning out over their first attempt with "mainland 15-20 years ago." 

It's probably prudent not to change anything on Mainland in response; it's certainly easier—and probably more profitable—to just let it die off slowly, like first-gen Linden Homes. Kinda disappointing for those of us still attached to Mainland though.

Maybe there's room for a Mainland replacement, to the extent it augments Belli. I just think the buckshot-brandishing porch sitter market may not be that lucrative.

Do Tinies use guns?

 

[Zalificent Corvinus]

6 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

The people that do generally require intent on the trespasser's side and/or notice on the property owner's side.

https://www.justia.com/criminal/offenses/other-crimes/criminal-trespass/

Well done.

 

Quote

The prosecutor would need to prove that the defendant intentionally entered someone else’s property without permission

The posts on this forum, from these people, claiming the "right" to enter private property" over and over and over, posts in which some of them openly admit to trespassing in "hundreds" of parcels during their latest "exploration", etc., would all constitute "proof" of intent.

 

Quote

or remained there after being told to leave

That's covered by any "warning" from an orb, for those who are generous enough to do so.

 

Quote

The intent element of the crime means that the defendant must be aware that they do not have permission to be on the property, or a legal right to be there. In other words, if the defendant reasonably believes that they own the property, or that it is open to the public, the prosecution probably cannot secure a conviction.

Do these people have any "reasonable" reason to believe THEY own MY property? No. Do they have any "reasonable" reason to believe I'm running a public amusement park for THEIR benefit? No.

Intent to commit Criminal Trespass, proved.

 

Quote

The property owner can provide verbal notice that another person is not welcome or that they need to leave the property. Sometimes signs or physical indicators, such as a fence or a locked gate, can convey the required notice as well.

Or Ban-lines.

In SL, the parcel one is about to trespass on, being RED on the mini-map because ban lines is the "Warning Sign".

 

Quote

a property owner may be able to get an injunction against a trespasser to prevent them from continuing to enter the property.

Auto-added to the parcel blacklist by the Security Orb.

 

Thank you for providing a link that proves the side you are apparently defending to be in the wrong.

 

[Qie Niangao]

16 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Do Tinies use guns?

Apparently??

 

[Theresa Tennyson]

16 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Thank you for providing a link that proves the side you are apparently defending to be in the wrong.

 

Now explain to us how those legal structures would apply to a zero-second teleport-home orb in the case of someone who just happened to accidentally cross an unmarked boundary.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

1 minute ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Now explain to us how those legal structures would apply to a zero-second teleport-home orb in the case of someone who just happened to accidentally cross an unmarked boundary.

"well officer, I was walking down the street, and I saw that house there, set back 20 feet from the sidewalk, and I said to my self 'This front yard can't possibly belong to anyone, it must be public land' so I walked over to the foot of the porch steps, and then the house owner set their dogs on me, and I ran away, please arrest them for harassing me with dogs on a PUBLIC ACCESS front yard!

 

What do you mean I'm under arrest for trespass, that front yard is OBCVIOUSLY public land, why else would it be next to the sidewalk?

 

Well yes, I have been arrested before, 178 times, for trespass on other public access front yards, I don't see that as being relevant.

 

Now take the cuffs off, and let me go, so I can go make a picnic lunch to enjoy on this public land front yard, after you've arrested the house  owner and shot his dogs.

 

OWWWW! Why did you hit me with that night stick, I'm not the criminal here, my 178 previous convictions are a sign of a system of land ownership that denies me my basic human right to be a criminal trespasser with immunity to consequences!"

 

Help! Help! I'm being oppressed, come and see the violence inherent in the system!"

 

Ban lines = Electric fence topped with razor wire, with "keep out" signs on it. 

Security Orb = Security guard with a shotgun loaded with rock salt, and an angry guard dog.

Teleport Home & Abuse Report = Criminal being taken away by the police, charged, and released, pending a court summons for being a criminal trespasser.

 

 

 

[Love Zhaoying]

22 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Apparently??

 

Squad goals!

 

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 hour ago, elleevelyn said:

yes on the first, and no on the second

on the first a new mainland could be

- Bring Your Own Home

-  fixed size parcels of varying sizes say 512, 1024, 2048,4096,8192 & 16384. No subdividiing

- prepay tier (+ Linden admin/setup fee) to obtain/buy parcel then must have the 1st month tier in your account  Billed monthly in advance thereafter

- can have as many parcels as you want

- no discount for larger holdings. Price per sqm is the same

- parcels can be rented and traded/sold between residents

- to obtain parcel direct from Linden file ticket, pay Linden admin/setup  fee plus 1st month tier

on the second. It may be lucrative

should the Damage 2.0 system eventuate then buckshot wielding porch sitters all be marched off to the new Outland continent(s)

be quite fun if you a scallywag. doing drivebys of grumpy buckshotters sitting on their porches yelling Get Off My Lawn You Scallywag !! assuming that Linden don't give any Damage 2.0 control to the parcel owner

That's awfully complicated. Just set the sim so that parcels cannot be subdivided or combined (as some mainland sims already are), and proceed as usual. LL sells them for $1 L per sqm, to whoever puts in a ticket, just like they do now.

At least banning subdividing will eliminate ad farms and networked advertising, from what I read in theforums is the biggest complaint about mainland.

Now just ban privacy screens and low skyboxes as well, and your new mainland will be paradise.

 

 

Edited January 15 by BilliJo Aldrin
added stuff, then added more stuff

[Rowan Amore]

2 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Uhh… it imght be prudent to seek counsel before killing a trespasser unless they posed a legitimate threat of serious bodily harm. Even in Texas.

The burden of proof in my state is not on the person IN the home but the person entering unlawfully.  I don't have to prove I was in danger.  They have to prove they weren't a threat.  At least in SL, since we're comparing it to RL laws and such, you just get bounced off a barrier and not shot and killed.   See how RL and SL comparisons are kind of pointless which was MY point.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

9 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

The burden of proof in my state is not on the person IN the home but the person entering unlawfully.  I don't have to prove I was in danger.  They have to prove they weren't a threat.  At least in SL, since we're comparing it to RL laws and such, you just get bounced off a barrier and not shot and killed.   See how RL and SL comparisons are kind of pointless which was MY point.

It would be more satisfying if you enable life on your parcel, then you actually CAN kill an intruder.

I need a hornet swarm that causes damage, then as they push you around stinging you, your life drops to zero, and then you die.

😂

[elleevelyn]

21 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

That's awfully complicated. Just set the sim so that parcels cannot be subdivided or combined (as some mainland sims already are), and proceed as usual. LL sells them for $1 L per sqm, to whoever puts in a ticket, just like they do now.

from revenue pov, prepay is better. The provider doesn't have to deal with delinquent accounts. And if have to prepay in USD then is simpler to add the setup fee in USD to the ticket

is also easier from the customer pov. Before can obtain the parcel, must have USD in your account. Linden will "sell" the parcel to customer for L$0

if the fee is in L$ for a parcel obtained from Linden thru a ticket, then have to have both USD and L$ in your account.

and like a giftcard if don't claim the parcel then don't get your money back - prepay is a use it or lose proposition

Edited January 15 by elleevelyn
morei nfo

[BilliJo Aldrin]

4 minutes ago, elleevelyn said:

from revenue pov, prepay is better. The provider doesn't have to deal with delinquent accounts. And if have to prepay in USD then is simpler to add the setup fee in USD to the ticket

is also easier from the customer pov. Before can obtain the parcel, must have USD in your account. If the fee is in L$ then have to have both USD and L$ in your account. Linden will "sell" the parcel to customer for L$0

and like a giftcard if don't claim the parcel then don't get your money back - prepay is a use it or lose proposition

You owe tier the second you take posesion, thats how it works now. You pay every month for the highest tier level you had during that month.

Talking about prepayment and set up fees? We are talking about a 512, not a whole sim.

All your proposal does is ensures no one will bother.

So you are saying I prepay part of my tier, and pay the rest as I do now?

Talk about a total disaster

Obviously you don't own mainland. I don't have any US Dollars in my account, I pay every month by credit card.

If I bounce my credit card payment, my account is locked until the payment is made. That is incentive not to stiff LL

 

Edited January 15 by BilliJo Aldrin
addd stuff

[Zalificent Corvinus]

5 minutes ago, elleevelyn said:

is also easier from the customer pov. Before can obtain the parcel, must have USD in your account. If the fee is in L$ then have to have both USD and L$ in your account. Linden will "sell" the parcel to customer for L$0

Say what? "Easier on the customer" ? You must be joking.

You're suggesting that to buy this "Mainland 2.0" crap, a customer would have to:

 

1. Buy L$ on the Lindex, including the hefty transaction fee tax.

2. Sell the L$ on the Lindex, incurring not only a SECOND transaction fee tax, but also taking a hefty hit due to exchange rate differences.

Just so they can have a "USD Balance" on their account, as well as a L$ balance.

 

Talk about finding innovative ways to convince potential land buyers to respond with "Take your mainland 2.0 and shove it!"

 

[elleevelyn]

5 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

So you are saying I prepay part of my tier, and pay the rest as I do now

 

no I am saying that when you obtain the parcel you pay the 1st month tier in advance

by USD money in your account I mean a valid payment method. If you/we don't have this then the parcel can't be obtained.  Get message: Insufficient funds/payment method not valid

if did go to prepay then isn't necessary to be a Premium member to obtain mainland.

[Theresa Tennyson]

50 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

"well officer, I was walking down the street, and I saw that house there, set back 20 feet from the sidewalk, and I said to my self 'This front yard can't possibly belong to anyone, it must be public land' so I walked over to the foot of the porch steps, and then the house owner set their dogs on me, and I ran away, please arrest them for harassing me with dogs on a PUBLIC ACCESS front yard!

With a zero-second teleport home orb you'd get nowhere near the porch steps. If you bent one blade of grass you'd be blown into the next county.