Land Sales Crash

[Rowan Amore]

21 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

OIC, its not that estates and mainland have special privacy features, its that Belli doesn't permit what can be done on estates and mainland, just two more reasons for never getting a Belli house 😂

So, in essence, you're only creating a isolated LL sorta Belli-like region in the middle of regular mainland.  Mainland where I can still put a massive privacy wall that blocks your view or a skybox 50m off the ground right next to your sorta-Belli but not quite region?  Where everyone surrounding this region has banlines?  Sounds awesome!

[Qie Niangao]

To clarify what I meant—which may be irrelevant to where this thread is now—I meant that originally, when functions like scripted llTeleportAgentHome and llEjectFromLand and the whole whitelist banline access control mechanism were being defined, they weren't necessarily applicable to Mainland. Instead they could have been reserved for Estates only, and have Mainland a more Belli-like experience (long, long before Belli became a thing).

Surely those "privacy" features are of value to some SL users, so they could have let the Estates find out who will pay for them, and how much.

Further about those earlier options, Mainland could have been, in detail, less like Belli and more like the exhibit regions of SL*B with Bring Your Own House, but under some restrictions about, say, minimum skybox altitude and maximum surround screen height. Or whatever. And with the sale/resale market, or not, either way, which I think make little difference to the actual value of land to SL.

FWIW, although not what I was talking about, at this late date the main practical "privacy" advantage of Estate powers is a ban that amounts to a temporary IP address ban. [ETA: and, for the high-rollers, wholly isolated, void-surrounded private islands dedicated to a solitary owner/renter who controls all access, which is the only "actual" privacy in SL.]

Edited January 15 by Qie Niangao

[Eowyn Southmoor]

Seems this thread, as entertaining as it has been, has now morphed back into a "how do we fix mainland?" thread.  So I will will just point this out:

Almost every suggestion on how to improve mainland seems to involve one very specific answer - having more rules.  This is the exact reason why these ideas wont ever work or be implemented. 

LL don't have the resources to police the Bellisseria covenant properly.  They did at the start when Belli comprised of about 4000 homes, but now it has to be almost ten times that size, making it so much more difficult to manage.  This is clearly evident by the sheer number of covenant violations there are within Bellisseria.  However, since most people in Bellisseria seem to rarely venture outside their own home, they seem oblivious to this - but a scan of the world map or a nice long drive soon reveals the truth.

Now, if one of LL's most important projects is becoming this difficult to manage, then how the heck are they going to manage if they suddenly have to deal with mainland being subject to some new rules?  The answer is simple, they won't manage, hence any idea to fix mainland that involves adding rules is dead in the water right from the start.

Now, to be clear, the fact that LL can't manage Bellisseria's covenant properly is in no way a criticism on them - this is squarely down to all of us residents.  We shouldn't need rules to make sure we are doing the right thing or being sensible, but unfortunately some people prove time and time again that they don't play well with others.

Regarding the whole mainland privacy thing and expecting people to move to private estates, I will repeat what I've said in various threads numerous times already - mainland is cheaper.  Someone wanting privacy should NOT be expected to move into a higher cost area when another product exists (mainland) that already meets their needs.

If private estate rentals were as cheap as mainland rentals, then I am sure some people who want more privacy would happily move.  A second point regarding this (that seemingly is lost on a lot of people), is that some seem to think that the convenience of mainland, and privacy, are mutually exclusive concepts.  They aren't.  It's perfectly reasonable to want to live next to a road so you can drive your car, whilst still expecting your home to be safe from intruders.  Why is this concept so hard to grasp?

[elleevelyn]

9 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

So does Belli just keep getting bigger and bigger while mainland gets emptier and emptier?

pretty much yes, while there is demand for Belli then Linden will keep printing regions. Is how Linden did the Old Linden Homes continents, and how they did classic mainland

the Linden plan, which Patch Linden has alluded too, is to sink the Old Linden Homes continents at same future point, which will necessarily mean force marching the few remaining holdouts to Belli

is no reason why Linden wouldn't do the same with classic mainland as it empties out. Start sinking regions into the sea, force marching the holdout residents to the nearest remaining regions. Which may spark a renaissance in classic mainland living, there being fewer on offer than before

[BilliJo Aldrin]

51 minutes ago, elleevelyn said:

pretty much yes, while there is demand for Belli then Linden will keep printing regions. Is how Linden did the Old Linden Homes continents, and how they did classic mainland

the Linden plan, which Patch Linden has alluded too, is to sink the Old Linden Homes continents at same future point, which will necessarily mean force marching the few remaining holdouts to Belli

is no reason why Linden wouldn't do the same with classic mainland as it empties out. Start sinking regions into the sea, force marching the holdout residents to the nearest remaining regions. Which may spark a renaissance in classic mainland living, there being fewer on offer than before

Well, thank goodness, I'm safe on Zindra then. They will never eliminate a fully occupied continent.

😂

[BilliJo Aldrin]

7 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

So, in essence, you're only creating a isolated LL sorta Belli-like region in the middle of regular mainland.  Mainland where I can still put a massive privacy wall that blocks your view or a skybox 50m off the ground right next to your sorta-Belli but not quite region?  Where everyone surrounding this region has banlines?  Sounds awesome!

Considering that you have to put up with that sort of thing after you paid a landflipper $10,000 for your dream parcel, I think people would jump at the chance to pay $0 L and take their chances. At least if that blight appears, you can simply walk away with no monetary loss.

Pay $10,000 or pay $0 L? Sounds like something a lot of people would jump on, if LL ever got the idea to try it, I know I would if I was looking for a 4096 on a moderate sim.

But don't worry, LL won't because they totally lack the desire to try anything genuinely new.

 

Edited January 15 by BilliJo Aldrin
added stuff

[Qie Niangao]

9 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

If people are moving out of mainland, it cannot be assumed they are currently only going to Bellisseria though.  They could be going to estates, leaving SL entirely, no longer want or simply cannot afford land right now.  We must be careful not to make too many assumptions.

The mystery to me is not really "where have all those Mainlanders gone?" but rather "where are all these Bellisserians coming from?" If anything, it's amazing to me that Mainland isn't more empty, privately-owned Estates are reasonably stable, as is concurrency, while Belli grows apace.

4 hours ago, Eowyn Southmoor said:

Regarding the whole mainland privacy thing and expecting people to move to private estates, I will repeat what I've said in various threads numerous times already - mainland is cheaper.  Someone wanting privacy should NOT be expected to move into a higher cost area when another product exists (mainland) that already meets their needs.

Right, the mistake was made long ago. From the very introduction of these particular scripted functions and whitelist banlines, people should have always had to pay for the kind of virtual "privacy" they've now come to expect for free.

This of course has nothing to do with actual privacy, which is tablestakes everywhere online. And at this point, I think the whole land "privacy" mechanism in SL is outdated anyway and I'd replace it all with shared, land-specified ignore/derender. But it's too late for that, too—at least until LL needs to print whole new continents again.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

7 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

The mystery to me is not really "where have all those Mainlanders gone?" but rather "where are all these Bellisserians coming from?" If anything, it's amazing to me that Mainland isn't more empty, privately-owned Estates are reasonably stable, as is concurrency, while Belli grows apace.

Right, the mistake was made long ago. From the very introduction of these particular scripted functions and whitelist banlines, people should have always had to pay for the kind of virtual "privacy" they've now come to expect for free.

This of course has nothing to do with actual privacy, which is tablestakes everywhere online. And at this point, I think the whole land "privacy" mechanism in SL is outdated anyway and I'd replace it all with shared, land-specified ignore/derender. But it's too late for that, too—at least until LL needs to print whole new continents again.

In all my years, I've never had ban lines, never restricted access to my parcels. If I do have an annoying intruder I ban them. What is this obsession about people not wanting other people to see your cartoon?

Its totally mind boggling.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

7 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

What is this obsession about people not wanting other people to see your cartoon?

I don't give a rat's backside if they can SEE me, I just don't want random over-entitled anti-privacy griefer trash wandering into my home and disturbing me while I'm doing something, standing in my way when I'm taking a snapshot, sitting on something I'm trying to link to something else when building, clicking menu buttons on something I'm trying to script.

I... Do... NOT... Want... Random... Explorer... Trash... In... MY... Parcel...

I pay for it, it's mine to use as I see fit within the ToS. So when some over-entitled trash complains that my parcel wasn't built for THEIR use, and whines that they have more right to my parcel than I do, because they are "exploring" or "glued their ass  to a vehicle", my response is NO.

 

If some Asshat, with a home in Belli, that isn't between anywhere anyone ever is, and anywhere anyone ever wants to be, states that they NEVER suffer random trash invasions, and therefore *I* shouldn't have the ability to prevent random trash invasion at my mainland parcel, my answer is NO.

 

And as for "if you don't want random trash, you should cancel your premium subscription, and move to a private estate, where you can pay extra for the right to kick people out of your home",  again I respond with NO.

 

MY premium subscription is just as good as some Belli Bigot's, it's not MY fault they choose to use their premium subscription to live in a tedious suburban wasteland filled with Neighbourhood Snitch Prodfnoses and with no privacy at all.

 

[Zalificent Corvinus]

29 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

where are all these Bellisserians coming from?

They come from... Bellicosia.

 

LL build X hundred homes for Theme 17, Bellicosians abandon Theme's 1-16 to grab a "NEW and EXCITING Theme 17 Home", leaving empty plots in all the other themes.

LL then build Y Hundred Theme 17 plots to meet the demand.

Then Theme 18 comes out and Z Hundred Theme 17 plots get abandoned.

 

Costs Bellicosians NOTHING to move to a different plot with a different Theme, so a large chunk of Belli is always "abandoned". There was some thread a while back where somebody revealed the "abandoned" rate in Belli was over 30% compared to 20 odd % for mainland.

 

This is why the @BilliJo Aldrin plan for "free to claim plots" in Mainland 2.0 will be a failure, costs nothing to move in, then you get hit with tier a month later, costs you nothing to move out, LL over build the M-2.0 stuff to meet initial faddish demand, and end up with 30 or 40 % abandoned, more empty land nobody actually wants or needs.

 

[Fionalein]

34 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

What is this obsession about people not wanting other people to see your cartoon?

Why does everyone assume everyone kinky is automatically an exhibitionist? That's simply not true.

Edited January 15 by Fionalein

[BilliJo Aldrin]

10 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

I don't give a rat's backside if they can SEE me, I just don't want random over-entitled anti-privacy griefer trash wandering into my home and disturbing me while I'm doing something, standing in my way when I'm taking a snapshot, sitting on something I'm trying to link to something else when building, clicking menu buttons on something I'm trying to script.

I... Do... NOT... Want... Random... Explorer... Trash... In... MY... Parcel...

I pay for it, it's mine to use as I see fit within the ToS. So when some over-entitled trash complains that my parcel wasn't built for THEIR use, and whines that they have more right to my parcel than I do, because they are "exploring" or "glued their ass  to a vehicle", my response is NO.

 

If some Asshat, with a home in Belli, that isn't between anywhere anyone ever is, and anywhere anyone ever wants to be, states that they NEVER suffer random trash invasions, and therefore *I* shouldn't have the ability to prevent random trash invasion at my mainland parcel, my answer is NO.

 

And as for "if you don't want random trash, you should cancel your premium subscription, and move to a private estate, where you can pay extra for the right to kick people out of your home",  again I respond with NO.

 

MY premium subscription is just as good as some Belli Bigot's, it's not MY fault they choose to use their premium subscription to live in a tedious suburban wasteland filled with Neighbourhood Snitch Prodfnoses and with no privacy at all.

 

I wish I could give a like AND a laugh emojii, because I love your style, and, what you say is so true

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 minute ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

They come from... Bellicosia.

 

LL build X hundred homes for Theme 17, Bellicosians abandon Theme's 1-16 to grab a "NEW and EXCITING Theme 17 Home", leaving empty plots in all the other themes.

LL then build Y Hundred Theme 17 plots to meet the demand.

Then Theme 18 comes out and Z Hundred Theme 17 plots get abandoned.

 

Costs Bellicosians NOTHING to move to a different plot with a different Theme, so a large chunk of Belli is always "abandoned". There was some thread a while back where somebody revealed the "abandoned" rate in Belli was over 30% compared to 20 odd % for mainland.

 

This is why the @BilliJo Aldrin plan for "free to claim plots" in Mainland 2.0 will be a failure, costs nothing to move in, then you get hit with tier a month later, costs you nothing to move out, LL over build the M-2.0 stuff to meet initial faddish demand, and end up with 30 or 40 % abandoned, more empty land nobody actually wants or needs.

 

You hit tier the second you move in, doesn't matter if you only own it for 10 minutes, you will owe a months tier, and your account will be blocked if you don't pay it.

You buy land, you owe tier, same thing here, only difference is you aren't spending thousands of $Ls hoping not to get blighted

[BilliJo Aldrin]

3 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

Why does everyone assume everyone kinky is an automatically an exhibitionist? That's simply not true.

Its your cartoon, its not people actually watching the real you.

Turn off looks at targets and you won't know if you are being watched anyway. 😂

[Zalificent Corvinus]

4 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

You hit tier the second you move in, doesn't matter if you only own it for 10 minutes, you will owe a months tier, and your account will be blocked if you don't pay it.

You buy land, you owe tier, same thing here, only difference is you aren't spending thousands of $Ls hoping not to get blighted

Exactly...

That's why your plan for "zero purchace cost" 4096's will fail.

People who don't understand, see the "Free parcels in Mainland 2.0" blog post, they rush over, claim their "free land" and a mopnth later "WTF? You said it was FREE, why do I owe $22? Screw this, I'm off back to Belli where they just opened Theme 18, maybe if I hurry I can get one."

 

And Mainland 2.0 ends up with a load of abandoned parcels once the fad wears off.

[Fionalein]

5 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

Its your cartoon, its not people actually watching the real you.

It's no toon, it's an avatar, a manifestation of an aspect of me, Look up's it's definition and it's use in the case of the internet.

...

PS: I hope you are not in the "SL is not a game" camp, ... because your view on avatars pretty much contradicts that trope.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

5 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Exactly...

That's why your plan for "zero purchace cost" 4096's will fail.

People who don't understand, see the "Free parcels in Mainland 2.0" blog post, they rush over, claim their "free land" and a mopnth later "WTF? You said it was FREE, why do I owe $22? Screw this, I'm off back to Belli where they just opened Theme 18, maybe if I hurry I can get one."

 

And Mainland 2.0 ends up with a load of abandoned parcels once the fad wears off.

You get a warning just the same as any time you bump your tier, its not like there is a hidden fee.

Its like claiming an estate parcel, then having to pay rent.. WTF i gotta pay rent, the land was free.

Not wanting to confuse stupid people is not a reason to not try something

[BilliJo Aldrin]

5 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

It's no toon, it's an avatar, a manifestation of an aspect of me, Look up's it's definition and it's use in the case of the internet.

...

PS: I hope you are not in the "SL is not a game" camp, ... because your view on avatars pretty much contradicts that trope.

I treat SL as totally real, but like it or not, we ARE cartoons

[Qie Niangao]

1 minute ago, Fionalein said:

Why does everyone assume everyone kinky is an automatically an exhibitionist? That's simply not true.

Sure, if I were redesigning SL land "privacy" I'd retain the ability to hide agents from those outside the parcel as well as from agents on the parcel's ignore/derender list. The difference from all the current kludginess is that those ignored agents need never care about any of that, they just pass through, maybe enjoy the scenery, no fuss no bother. Rather like surfing a web page.

Since there's so little inconvenience at stake, the rendering/non-ignored status could be whitelisted opt-in. Everybody sees the scenery but only the chosen interact with it or observe each other.

Or hide your whole virtual world "website" (private island region)—for a price.

_______________

Re: Bellisseria vacancy rates: Last I read, the whole continent was pretty fully owned even by Estate standards (and of course vastly higher than Mainland), but with one or two specific styles less successful. This must be published somewhere, the data being utterly trivial to gather by bot. Anybody know if the Bonnies do this? or who does?

Obviously this won't last forever, though, and the Lab will eventually need to be efficient at removing hunks of Belli as they're replaced by new improved content—PBR for example.

[Fionalein]

2 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Re: Bellisseria vacancy rates: Last I read, the whole continent was pretty fully owned even by Estate standards (and of course vastly higher than Mainland), but with one or two specific styles less successful. This must be published somewhere, the data being utterly trivial to gather by bot. Anybody know if the Bonnies do this? or who does?

No Bonnies in Belli anymore, LL banned bots there after user uproar.

[Qie Niangao]

2 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

No Bonnies in Belli anymore, LL banned bots there after user uproar.

Oh right. So much for bots. It's feasible to do it with a single, non-bot agent, especially after the first pass through the regions. Hmm. Could be an interesting project but I can't imagine it hasn't been done already.

[Fionalein]

3 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Oh right. So much for bots. It's feasible to do it with a single, non-bot agent, especially after the first pass through the regions. Hmm. Could be an interesting project but I can't imagine it hasn't been done already.

You could gamify it: script a data collecting blackbox, distribute it to a Belli Explorer's Association and create rewards for avid explorers.

Edited January 15 by Fionalein

[Theresa Tennyson]

10 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

I note sure about that.  Deterrents don't really work in RL or SL.  We used to have the police blotter and sending people to the cornfield but it never stopped people breaking the rules.

 

10 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

No but the question would be whether it is lessened because a percentage of the population will think twice about the ramifications of an infraction. 

My understanding is there was a certain class of users who would intentionally cause problems because they wanted to be on the "police blotter."

[Qie Niangao]

6 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

You could gamify it: script a data collecting blackbox, distribute it to a Belli Explorer's Association and create rewards for avid explorers.

Definitely. I was trying to concoct a conspiracy for BelliBins and house numbers, but they'd be biased in favor of regions with more population. Explorers would be much better.

(This is yet another time when no-object-entry on protected land foils my schemes.)

[Theresa Tennyson]

2 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

Pay $10,000 or pay $0 L? Sounds like something a lot of people would jump on, if LL ever got the idea to try it, I know I would if I was looking for a 4096 on a moderate sim.

 

So it's not a big complicated scheme to do something only you want.

It's a big complicated scheme to do something not even you want.