Will land ever be priced fairly?

[Lewis Nerd]

So at the moment, I own 1/8 of a mainland region and at the maximum sq/m allowed for my tier.  That costs me $31 a month (plus taxes because I am a UK resident).

If I was to buy an adjacent 512 sq/m plot to my land that's abandoned, that would put me into the 1/4 region tier and cost me $60 a month, whereas 512 sq/m on its own is $4/month.

Why is it so difficult for LL to accept - even after all these years - that it should be a price per sq/m owned, within those sq/m total brackets so I only pay $4 (or lower, as it's in the higher ownership bracket) more than present, rather than spending $29 for land that I mostly don't own?  $4 I can afford, $29 I can't justify. I am pretty sure if tiers were a 'proportional cost within a bracket' there would be a lot more people buying odd sized bits of land and LL would be making more money, rather than nothing on these little parcels.

Yes, I could have bought a larger parcel at the back of my property recently but that would have again cost me $29 a month extra and I'd still not be getting my full value for money for the tier I'm paying.

Even the Premium/Premium Plus argument fails here because although I'd get 1024 sq/m 'free' in plus which is 'worth' $13, it would cost me $18 per month extra and I'm pretty sure the other 'extras' don't cover the $5 difference.

I know there are arguments of mainland v island/region ownership but a whole island is way beyond what I can afford for what is (and always has been), essentially, a casual game to me, but I've owned this particular plot of land and expanded as neighbours have come and gone, for a long time and I'm quite attached to my nice little roadside plot.

Land in SL has always been expensive, and partly why over the years we've seen so many stores, nightclubs and adult entertainment venues that have no real atmosphere or purpose apart from to make some money for the landowner to try and cover the costs of owning the land in the first place - and why so many people give up and leave

[Alwin Alcott]

Use a group to own land, you'll get 10% bonus for groupowned land, and not have this problem unless you go over that 10% of course..

[Qie Niangao]

17 minutes ago, Lewis Nerd said:

Even the Premium/Premium Plus argument fails here because although I'd get 1024 sq/m 'free' in plus which is 'worth' $13, it would cost me $18 per month extra and I'm pretty sure the other 'extras' don't cover the $5 difference.

Not sure if this is helpful, but it's a weird little table I made up when Plus first came out:

Plan	annual fee	L$ stipend / week	annual cost net of stipend	bonus m²	L$ / week / bonus 512m²
Plus	$66	150	$34.80	512	167
Premium	$99	300	$36.60	1024	88
400 grandfathered	99	400	$15.80	1024	38
500 grandfathered	99	500	-$5.00	1024	-12
Premium Plus	$249	650	$113.80	2048	137

The point was to

1. calculate that "annual cost net of stipend" column (at L$250/US$) for the different annual plans (including old timey Premiums that get L$400 and L$500/wk stipends), and
2. the weekly "cost" of each "bonus" 512 m² as if that's the only value of the subscription plan other than stipend.

Not surprisingly, the higher Premium Plus cost mostly goes to stuff other than the 2048 m² bonus tier, so the cost "per bonus 512" is no bargain, but also the entry-level Plus subscription, which offers blessed little besides the ability to buy Mainland, has such a low stipend that the bonus 512 works out to be quite pricey.

[Lewis Nerd]

6 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

Use a group to own land, you'll get 10% bonus for groupowned land, and not have this problem unless you go over that 10% of course..

But then you need other members to donate tier towards the group - and I tend to be a solo player most of the time as the friends I started playing the game with back in 2005 have either moved on, or died.

Or am I missing something?

[Qie Niangao]

(I think Alwin and I are both assuming as many alts as necessary to "fit the curve" of incremental tier.)

[Lewis Nerd]

4 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Plan	annual fee	L$ stipend / week	annual cost net of stipend	bonus m²	L$ / week / bonus 512m²
Plus	$66	150	$34.80	512	167
Premium	$99	300	$36.60	1024	88
400 grandfathered	99	400	$15.80	1024	38
500 grandfathered	99	500	-$5.00	1024	-12
Premium Plus	$249	650	$113.80	2048	137

L$ is not a big deal to me, I've got more than I need for building and if I need L$ I can buy as and when required.  But it's the land tier that's the issue - and, as you say, doesn't really work out very cost effective.  It seems silly upgrading one of my alts to a paid account just to get some extra land when I'll end up paying far more than the land I'd get.

[Qie Niangao]

2 minutes ago, Lewis Nerd said:

L$ is not a big deal to me, I've got more than I need for building and if I need L$ I can buy as and when required.  But it's the land tier that's the issue - and, as you say, doesn't really work out very cost effective.  It seems silly upgrading one of my alts to a paid account just to get some extra land when I'll end up paying far more than the land I'd get.

The premise is that stipend L$s and tier US$s are mutually interchangeable. It's easy to convert L$s to US$s on the LindeX and use those US$ for tier without incurring cash-out fees (or for other folks who buy L$s, offset some of those purchases).

But yeah, there's no great bargain here, at current pricing—especially if one only needs an additional 512m².

I don't know why group tier rental never caught on to fill this need. AFAIK it still exists as a business, and there's a big arbitrage gap there, but it needs scale to smooth out the quarter-region tier steps it too needs to take.

[Lewis Nerd]

4 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

But yeah, there's no great bargain here, at current pricing—especially if one only needs an additional 512m².

I could use more - a lot more - and could probably build four regions worth of 'stuff' to enjoy, but there's no way unless I win the lottery I'd ever be able to justify the cost of it all.  I've been involved in some commercial and educational builds over the years which have been multiple regions, but they're always to the spec of the paying person rather than building what I want - and I want something that's just easy and fun without being another shop, mall, club or adult entertainment venue which hold absolutely zero interest to me and the way I play the game.  No problem with those who do, it's just not for me.

I was just using a vacant 512 at the back of my property as an example, where I could just grab a few more prims to use, and maybe rearrange what's on my land a bit to make a bit better use of the space, and $29 for the tier v $4 if I was getting 512 sq/m as a newbie.

[Alwin Alcott]

1 hour ago, Lewis Nerd said:

 

Or am I missing something?

yes you miss something  No fiddling with multiple premiums or friends is needed.
Just you donating the landtier you have now for that 1/8 region to a group you personally with a basic alt you own yourself ..  is enough to get the 10% groupbonus.

The one member  (your own alt) more you have to add is only to prevent that the group gets deleted ( needs one owner+ member) and that can be a free basic account.
You have to deed all of your land to the goup, or as much of your current owning till you have the 512 sqm available as donation bonus.
 

Edited October 24, 2023 by Alwin Alcott

[Alwin Alcott]

1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said:

(I think Alwin and I are both assuming as many alts as necessary to "fit the curve" of incremental tier.)

no

he pays for 1/8 region already and can donate that to a group to get the bonus over that sqm's ... only needs one alt to join the group and keep it all for himself.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said:

Not sure if this is helpful, but it's a weird little table I made up when Plus first came out:

 

 

Plan	annual fee	L$ stipend / week	annual cost net of stipend	bonus m²	L$ / week / bonus 512m²
Plus	$66	150	$34.80	512	167
Premium	$99	300	$36.60	1024	88
400 grandfathered	99	400	$15.80	1024	38
500 grandfathered	99	500	-$5.00	1024	-12
Premium Plus	$249	650	$113.80	2048	137

Just to clarify:  (Sorry if we beat this to death quite often)

Assuming my goal is/was to get 2048m2 land:

If I use Premium Plus to get 2048 (what I am doing now), that is STILL cheaper than Premium and paying the extra 1024 Tier fees (taking into account the additional stipend, instead of / NOT using some Alt + "group shenanigans").  Right?

 

Edited October 24, 2023 by Love Zhaoying

[Qie Niangao]

11 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

If I use Premium Plus to get 2048 (what I am doing now), that is STILL cheaper than Premium and paying the extra 1024 Tier fees (taking into account the additional stipend, instead of / NOT using some Alt + "group shenanigans").  Right?

Right, but not by as much as one might hope. As the table shows, net of stipend, Premium Plus costs US$113.80 annually and Premium costs $36.60 so you're paying an extra $77.20 for the higher subscription level. That extra 1024 m² tier would cost the Premium account $84 per year (12 months at $7/mo) so you're saving $84 - 77.20 = $6.80 for the year—or almost 57¢ each month. Don't spend it all in one place!

(Of course there are other benefits to Premium Plus.)

[Love Zhaoying]

5 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Right, but not by as much as one might hope. As the table shows, net of stipend, Premium Plus costs US$113.80 annually and Premium costs $36.60 so you're paying an extra $77.20 for the higher subscription level. That extra 1024 m² tier would cost the Premium account $84 per year (12 months at $7/mo) so you're saving $84 - 77.20 = $6.80 for the year—or almost 57¢ each month. Don't spend it all in one place!

(Of course there are other benefits to Premium Plus.)

I use "boy math" for this. "Wow, if I go Premium Plus, I get an extra 1024m for free!!!1!!!"

 

[BilliJo Aldrin]

6 hours ago, Lewis Nerd said:

But then you need other members to donate tier towards the group - and I tend to be a solo player most of the time as the friends I started playing the game with back in 2005 have either moved on, or died.

Or am I missing something?

If you are at the 1/8 level, you own 8192 plus the 1024 free tier that goes with premium, for a total of 9216. Donate all your tier to you own group, and you will get an extra 921 sq m, so you can buy that 512 for the group, and still have 400 sq m left to flip micro parcels 😂

[BilliJo Aldrin]

8 hours ago, Lewis Nerd said:

I could use more - a lot more - and could probably build four regions worth of 'stuff' to enjoy, but there's no way unless I win the lottery I'd ever be able to justify the cost of it all.  I've been involved in some commercial and educational builds over the years which have been multiple regions, but they're always to the spec of the paying person rather than building what I want - and I want something that's just easy and fun without being another shop, mall, club or adult entertainment venue which hold absolutely zero interest to me and the way I play the game.  No problem with those who do, it's just not for me.

I was just using a vacant 512 at the back of my property as an example, where I could just grab a few more prims to use, and maybe rearrange what's on my land a bit to make a bit better use of the space, and $29 for the tier v $4 if I was getting 512 sq/m as a newbie.

You can also buy tier from someone, no idea what the going rate for 512 sq m is though

[diamond Marchant]

Will land ever be priced fairly?

Back to the OP, likely not, if "priced fairly" means the same price per sqm of tier regardless of how much you own AND being able to purchase only what you need.

Basically, the cheapest tier is the included tier that comes with Premium (computed as membership cost minus stipend). It then gets very expensive, peaking at the 2048 tier level, after which it declines steadily to almost the original price at 32768. At a full region, it is at the "land baron" price which is a bit below the original (introductory) price.

I speculate that Linden Lab benefits from this structure... the cheaper introductory price attracts first time land owners.... the higher fees in the lower tiers are the "sweet spot"... the declining fees in the higher tiers tempt you to go bigger... the final lowest fees are to support the SL real estate industry. Also, because tier levels increase by doubling until the 32768 level, you often must buy more tier than you need.

At first, this seemed absurd to me but, after reflection, I am OK with it.  I believe that it is almost a miracle that SL still exists. If this tier structure contributes to revenue and ROI for the (private) owners, that is great.

If you are a value oriented land owner, I suggest these guidelines as a way to maximize value. Buy Premium memberships on an annual basis. Create an alt, make a land group with that alt, and donate all your tier to the group (to get the 10% bonus). When incrementally adding 1024sqm, always compare the option of buying a Premium membership for an alt as that is the cheapest tier (unless you are a land baron). This is called "premium stacking".

Also, only buy Premium Plus if you desire the perks, such at the 2048 Linden Home or the "pick your own home" feature.

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by diamond Marchant

[animats]

2 hours ago, diamond Marchant said:

being able to purchase only what you need.

Current tier pricing.

 

Possible "purchase what you need" tier pricing.

 

[Love Zhaoying]

18 minutes ago, animats said:

Current tier pricing.

 

Possible "purchase what you need" tier pricing.

 

^^^Yes!!

[Lewis Nerd]

On 10/25/2023 at 7:21 PM, animats said:

Possible "purchase what you need" tier pricing.

Exactly what I'm talking about.  Even if it's only in increments of 512 sq/m it would be a lot fairer and affordable for people than the current doubling of land amount.  It would definitely make more money for LL as these odd parcels of mainland come up that you could use to expand but don't want to pay another $30 a month just for 512 sq/m which, to a noob, is $4.  

Obviously more land = more prims, and I try not to get tight to my prim limits where I can, but 'every little helps'.  How much creativity and fun is lost due to the cost of what is really quite an expensive game once you get past owning only a basic piece of land with a small house on it.

[Alwin Alcott]

On 10/27/2023 at 8:01 PM, Lewis Nerd said:

How much creativity and fun is lost due to the cost of what is really quite an expensive game once you get past owning only a basic piece of land with a small house on it.

you said you have 1/8 region, that's not a little piece of land with a small house.

[Lewis Nerd]

8 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

you said you have 1/8 region, that's not a little piece of land with a small house.

It may not be "a little piece of land with a small house" - I don't have a 'house' in SL as my real house is enough trouble to keep clean let alone a digital one - but if I had the money for a whole region I'd still have more creative ideas than I could fill it with.  It tends to be the prim limit that we hit first, and I know there are some 'double prim' plots out there... it seems they are random and it's not just something you can "buy to have".

[BJoyful]

If you, right now, pay USD $31 per month and own your 1/8 of Mainland and a 1024 in Bellisseria, If you create a land group and donate all your tier to it (also you will need an Alt, even a basic non-premium Alt - because you need 2 members to keep a Group) , you get 10% more square meters automatically, without needing to pay anything extra at all. 

8192 + 10% Group Land Bonus = 9011.2 = 819.2 extra m2 of extra tier so you can buy up to 819.2 without paying any additional tier.  You'll only need additional tier donation if you want more than the 10% Group Land Bonus.  😃

[Zalificent Corvinus]

5 hours ago, BJoyful said:

If you, right now, pay USD $31 per month and own your 1/8 of Mainland and a 1024 in Bellisseria, If you create a land group and donate all your tier to it (also you will need an Alt, even a basic non-premium Alt - because you need 2 members to keep a Group) , you get 10% more square meters automatically, without needing to pay anything extra at all. 

8192 + 10% Group Land Bonus = 9011.2 = 819.2 extra m2 of extra tier so you can buy up to 819.2 without paying any additional tier.  You'll only need additional tier donation if you want more than the 10% Group Land Bonus.  😃

A better option would be to dump the Belli home, then you have the 1k tier free allowance, AND the 8k tier band, that's 9k, in a group, so add another 0.9k, for a total of 9.9k of land for the 8k tier payment and your premium sub, 1.9k extra for no more money..

[BilliJo Aldrin]

7 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

A better option would be to dump the Belli home, then you have the 1k tier free allowance, AND the 8k tier band, that's 9k, in a group, so add another 0.9k, for a total of 9.9k of land for the 8k tier payment and your premium sub, 1.9k extra for no more money..

Like I told him before, its also possible to buy tier from someone, that way he can have his extra 512 without bumping his tier level.

Of course he has to donate his land to a group first, and the 10% group bonus will be more than enough to cover his 512, so he doesn't need to buy tier from anyone. 😂

 

[BJoyful]

12 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

A better option would be to dump the Belli home, then you have the 1k tier free allowance, AND the 8k tier band, that's 9k, in a group, so add another 0.9k, for a total of 9.9k of land for the 8k tier payment and your premium sub, 1.9k extra for no more money..

That's a good point but I LOVE my Belli Camper so much I could never bear to part with it.  I love having a second home (or 5) to go to if I get caught in the Restart Tuesday Race 😉