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honerken

So what's up with this obsession with realistic avatars?

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Zim Gunsberg wrote:

To the OP: SL isn't real life, and never was intended to be.

Once LL takes away the ability to teleport and fly and institutes the requirement of feeding one's avatar every 6 hours or so I might begin to take the rants of the realism-obsessed seriously. Oh yes, and perma-death on combat sims. That is a must.

Who am I? oh, just some naughty giant 7'6" horribly out of proportion guy, that's all  :smileywink: 

 

I think that's the wrong way of looking at it. I don't care if you want to be 10' tall giant, just so long as you don't say I look like a child because I'm 5'4". I can't speak for everyone but for me the push to a uniform scale is not to make everyone the same size but instead to get the giants to except the fact that they're giant. I'm tired of people that say nothing in sl is real so their height doesn't matter then turn around and say I'm a child because of my height. That's blatant hypocrisy.

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leliel Mirihi wrote:


Zim Gunsberg wrote:

To the OP: SL isn't real life, and never was intended to be.

Once LL takes away the ability to teleport and fly and institutes the requirement of feeding one's avatar every 6 hours or so I might begin to take the rants of the realism-obsessed seriously. Oh yes, and perma-death on combat sims. That is a must.

Who am I? oh, just some naughty giant 7'6" horribly out of proportion guy, that's all  :smileywink: 

 

I think that's the wrong way of looking at it. I don't care if you want to be 10' tall giant, just so long as you don't say I look like a child because I'm 5'4". I can't speak for everyone but for me the push to a uniform scale is not to make everyone the same size but instead to get the giants to except the fact that they're giant. I'm tired of people that say nothing in sl is real so their height doesn't matter then turn around and say I'm a child because of my height. That's blatant hypocrisy.

 

I don't believe I've ever met you, much less said you looked like a child. A push towards a uniform scale is a push towards stifling the creativity of those who opt not to be fettered by the bounds of the 'real world' or forced to slavishly recreate what is real in a vitrual creative space. This is not about you personally. If you honestly can't see this perspective, Mr Dali, Mr Picasso, and Mr Botero would like to have a few words with you.  :smileywink:

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Zim Gunsberg wrote: 

I don't believe I've ever met you, much less said you looked like a child.


I don't believe I said you had either. That was an example.


A push towards a uniform scale is a push towards stifling the creativity of those who opt not to be fettered by the bounds of the 'real world' or forced to slavishly recreate what is real in a vitrual creative space.


How so, specifically? I'll say it once again, I don't care if you want to make your avatar or your buildings big for whatever reason. Just don't judge my lack of height because of it, and don't be surprised when I comment on how ridiculously large they look (to me). I think you are failing to understand what I'm saying, uniform scale means 1 meter = 1 meter, not all avatars should be 1.7 meters. If you want to be 10' tall that means you're 10' tall, not 6' tall in some world where 1 meter = 1.5 meters. In other words be 10' tall if you want, just don't pretend to not be due to some BS about creativity. In fact how can you even call that being creative? Dali and Escher were creative because they broke scale and perspective in very specific ways. This mind set of "eh I'm X tall because I say I am" smacks of laziness to me, not creativity.

 

 

 

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leliel Mirihi wrote:


Zim Gunsberg wrote: 

I don't believe I've ever met you, much less said you looked like a child.


I don't believe I said you had either. That was an example.

A push towards a uniform scale is a push towards stifling the creativity of those who opt not to be fettered by the bounds of the 'real world' or forced to slavishly recreate what is real in a vitrual creative space.


How so, specifically? I'll say it once again, I don't care if you want to make your avatar or your buildings big for whatever reason. Just don't judge my lack of height because of it, and don't be surprised when I comment on how ridiculously large they look (to me). I think you are failing to understand what I'm saying, uniform scale means 1 meter = 1 meter, not all avatars should be 1.7 meters. If you want to be 10' tall that means you're 10' tall, not 6' tall in some world where 1 meter = 1.5 meters. In other words be 10' tall if you want, just don't pretend to not be due to some BS about creativity. In fact how can you even call that being creative? Dali and Escher were creative because they broke scale and perspective in very specific ways. This mind set of "eh I'm X tall because I say I am" smacks of laziness to me, not creativity.

 

 

 

 

Sorry, I'm not buying your argument either.  We'll just have to agree to disagree until LL steps in and says "this is right and this is wrong".  To my way of thinking, aping RL aesthetics in a non-real world is far lazier than ignoring RL constraints and creating a new aesthetic.  Any way you slice it, what you are doing is attempting to force others to adopt your own aesthetic, which is just as bad as what you are accusing the "giants" and "amazons" of doing.

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Zim Gunsberg wrote:

Sorry, I'm not buying the your argument either.  We'll just have to agree to disagree until LL steps in and says "this is right and this is wrong".  To my way of thinking, aping RL aesthetics in a non-real world is far lazier than ignoring RL constraints and creating a new aesthetic.  Any way you slice it, what you are doing is attempting to force others to adopt your own aesthetic, which is just as bad as what you are accusing the "giants" and "amazons" of doing.

 

Once again I think you're missing the point. How do I know you are one of the people that want to be a giant, instead of being one of those people that say they're not tall even tho the look like they are. There is only one way to tell and that is to compare you to something with a mutually agreed upon height. Hence the uniform scale where 1m = 1m.

In other words how am I supposed to know you are going against RL aesthetics when we can't agree on how high a prim is?

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leliel Mirihi wrote:


Zim Gunsberg wrote:

Sorry, I'm not buying the your argument either.  We'll just have to agree to disagree until LL steps in and says "this is right and this is wrong".  To my way of thinking, aping RL aesthetics in a non-real world is far lazier than ignoring RL constraints and creating a new aesthetic.  Any way you slice it, what you are doing is attempting to force others to adopt your own aesthetic, which is just as bad as what you are accusing the "giants" and "amazons" of doing.

 

Once again I think you're missing the point. How do I know you are one of the people that want to be a giant, instead of being one of those people that say they're not tall even tho the look like they are. There is only one way to tell and that is to compare you to something with a mutually agreed upon height. Hence the uniform scale where 1m = 1m.

In other words how am I supposed to know you are going against RL aesthetics when we can't agree on how high a prim is?

Oh I'm fully aware that I'm 7'6" tall, my AV just doesn't look quite right on my 22" screen (with a 1920 x 1080 resolution) if it's any smaller. 1m = 1m, I'm not one of those magic formula guys. When I go to clubs I'm usually one of the shortest guys in the room, but it doesn't really bother me. I found that maximum bootyliciousness was achieved (for me) at a height of 7'6".  :smileyhappy:

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Zim Gunsberg wrote:

Oh I'm fully aware that I'm 7'6" tall, my AV just doesn't look quite right on my 22" screen (with a 1920 x 1080 resolution) if it's any smaller. 1m = 1m, I'm not one of those magic formula guys. When I go to clubs I'm usually one of the shortest guys in the room, but it doesn't really bother me. I found that maximum bootyliciousness was achieved (for me) at a height of 7'6".  :smileyhappy:

 

Then I don't have a problem with you. ^.^

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Zim Gunsberg wrote:

I found that maximum bootyliciousness was achieved (for me) at a height of 7'6".  :smileyhappy:

I don't believe you... picture please... lol.

I understand the way you feel. I'm only slightly shorter than you (until I put on my platform boots that is) but I also understand that the reason for this is that scale in SL is way off. I believe the only way this will really change is for LL to do something about it, and I'm not talking about forcing anyone to a specific standard.

Even though I'm not ready to scale down my av for probably the same reasons as you (don't want to become a munchkin in giganto world), I fully support people advocating for change, as long as it's not done in an offensive, condescending way. Of course, people being people, some will be that way... especially the ones that have been ridiculed for being short in the past.

...Dres

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Like in RL, one cannot please everyone, there will always be someone or some people that feels their view or perspective is the correct one.

Or, like most, speak before they think.

If not about height, it is about how their hair looks, or how their shape is, or what color their garment is, and so on.

There is a block function of this type of interaction.

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This has been an issue I have been thinking about a lot lately myself. For the longesttime, my avi has been a fairly normal SL height, which means extremely tall! (6'5" or more). I recently tried to reshape myself to a more realistic height for a human female. It not only did not look right, it made it very hard to fit any clothes. I have opted ora happy medium of around 6' ft.

For me, if I have a human avi, then I would want them to be human in size as well. To me it sort of defeats the purpose of trying to create a realistic avi, then have her the size ofa small building. If I want to RP as a Amazon or have  a reason for my avi to be very tall, then it would make sense.

I do see a push for more natural height in avis and I am sure our OP has ran into some folk who are perhaps taking the issue a bit too far and sticking there nose in someone else's business. Let's remember LL created this mess with starting the avis out at a taller than natural height. Pure laziness on their part. Like it or not, that IS the norm andI have no problem whatsever with taller avis...or tiny ones!

I do think proportion is important. the crazy long frog legs on emales cracks me up. It took a lot of searching and work on the shape editor butI have made my avi correctly proportioned for her height. Proportion is not subjective. Your body is either in proportion, or it aint. No matter what height, an avi looks very pleasant to the eye when it is in proportion and clothes fit better and animations are wonderful.

The important thing is for you to be happy with how your avi looks.

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If folks are telling you that you look too tall, it's probably because it's blowing their suspension of disbelief that you could actually look like that in a fantasy world context.  In other words:  Character Design FAIL.

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Zim Gunsberg wrote:

Sorry, I'm not buying your argument either.  We'll just have to agree to disagree until LL steps in and says "this is right and this is wrong".  To my way of thinking, aping RL aesthetics in a non-real world is far lazier than ignoring RL constraints and creating a new aesthetic.  Any way you slice it, what you are doing is attempting to force others to adopt your own aesthetic, which is just as bad as what you are accusing the "giants" and "amazons" of doing.


You can't use the ruler the Lindens provided to solve this problem?  It's not like meters used for prims are somehow different than meters used for character design.

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I'd ignore the scripted stuff that tries to guess your height; my experience is all of them get it wrong in one way or another.  Make a prim, set it phantom, move it into the item you're trying to measure, and stretch it until it fits.  Read the dimension in the object editor.

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Alazarin Mondrian wrote:


honerken wrote:

It's like I can't go anywhere these days without someone complaining that my avatar is too tall.  I didn't know SL was real life, and we have to look 'realistic'...

You've has the misfortune to blunder into a swarm of 'realos': the type who make their avatars into a mini-me of their RL player and expect, nay *demand(!)* that everyone else do the same. Sadly it will end in tears and temper tantrums for them.

 

I'm pretty sure the motivation of most folks who more or less have a hard time believing extremely large human dimensions in SL aren't expecting everyone to be a mini-me, just not be a Barbie doll or sasquatch in stature if they're human.

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leliel Mirihi wrote:

If there's no standard then they could just a easily be using a lager scale then me.

Never mind there's one scale in SL.  Not sure which parallel dimension you may be coming from, but in this one, a meter is a meter.

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Baloo Uriza wrote:


leliel Mirihi wrote:

If there's no standard then they could just a easily be using a lager scale then me.

Never mind there's one scale in SL.  Not sure which parallel dimension you may be coming from, but in this one, a meter is a meter.

Read the rest of my post, and the ones after it as well.

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For me, when I started I liked looking as much like me as possible. Some people "hate" that and wonder what the point of sl is then. My thing was that I actually like myself physically  (very much in fact) so that I wasn't in a hurry to "look different". Height included. I didn't "care" if other people wanted to be 7'10" (although they did tend to look alienish to me -It's the thighs, they just are SO long), that was fine. It only became an "issue" when attempting to dance with or date someone. I can't really date you if you look "alienish" to me :/   Similarly I'm not attracted to tall women. (Some like blonde, some like brunette, some like em packed tight and curvy ;)  )  In the end have I changed my avatar height? yeah. but grudgingly so lol. Otherwise no one is "eligible".  As for the child avatar thing:  ANY thing is arguably "short". If the majority decide to be 10feet tall then 8feet becomes the new fair game. Where do you stop then? EVERY height is "suspect" depending on who's in the room. And that becomes pointless. So (in my opinion) worry more about what's on your profile and whether or not you're saying things like "I'm only in junior high"

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I don't care what other people want to look like, as long as they don't try to make me experience Second Life their way. My avatar is mine, so it will look how I like it to look. 

If I want to see real life, I look out the window; but that's just me.

 

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Imnotgoing Sideways wrote:

Also... "Realistic".  I'd be happy if that were a banned word in SL.  My goal is believable.  I still shape myself as a chubby little ideal.  (
^_^
)

 

 

A thousand Kudos for the statement about being believable verses realistic.  Though you do seem to contradict yourself with the rest of your statements.

For better or for worse, when SL started a standard was set for avatar height in SL. There were some reasons for this as Andrew Linden stated,

"As I recall, the max and min heights (head to toe) possible are somewhere around 2.95 and 1.25 meters, respectively. I determined those numbers emperically back in late beta.

 

The historical reason the "middle of the sliders" avatar is taller than the average human is because our last non-modifiable avatar back in pre-alpha just happened to be that tall (a guy we called "Primitar"**Only uploaded images may be used in postings**://forums-archive.secondlife.com/_imgs/smileys/wink.png" border="0" alt=";)" title=";)" />. Then we changed how the avatars looked without changing the physical representation of the avatar on the server, and their default size was scaled to match the collision model."

http://forums-archive.secondlife.com/120/4d/7240/1.html#post54400

The point here is that it was an issue of scaling to the way they designed the environment.  From that point on things in SL were designed with the default avatar height in mind.  Furniture, Houses, Dance Animations, later on couple's animations, etc, etc, were built around this.

So if you really want to look "Believable" in the Second Life environment, you should be applying a ratio.  If the average male avatar is 7 foot and the average real life male is 6 foot and you want to appear to be 5 foot in SL, very simply, "X(the height you want to appear to be) is to 5 what 7 is to 6."  Then you would look "Believable" in Second life.

For better or for worse I don't think Linden Lab is going to rescale the entirety of Second Life to make the world scale or fit the height measurements in the sliders.  I don't think it is possible to do. So if you want to look "believable" applying percentages seems to me the moist viable solution.

On a final note, I didn't choose my Avatar height per se.  I just accepted the Avatar that I was presented with when I started SL.  I didn't do it (make it 7 foot tall) as one poster suggested in another thread because I have self esteem issues in RL.  It was what it was and it looked "Believable" in the Second Life world.  The only thing I changed (downsized) was my prim **bleep** because in RL it would have been considered attack with a deadly weapon.

 

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honerken wrote:

It's like I can't go anywhere these days without someone complaining that my avatar is too tall.  I didn't know SL was real life, and we have to look 'realistic'.

Perhaps I should just walk around a 2 foot gnome.  I'll show them.  
:P

 There's actually a lot of problems created in SL by the average avatar being 7' or taller. Land size is constant, so think of it like you live in a 20mx20m box. If you build a house 20mx20m, you've eaten up all your land. If you build a house 10mx10m you could build four such houses. Or one such house, a scenic landscape and an outdoor patio from which to admire it.

 I wrote an article detailing all of the issues with scale in SL over in the Building and Texturing forum. I see the whole issue as a failure of design on LL's part, but one they can easily correct at any point in time to the benefit of us all.

It really has nothing to do with being "realistic" and everything to do with SL's content creation limitations, the effects of scale on static land sizes, and our aility to create a wider variety of creative avatars if people wouldn't all squeeze into the extremely tall end of the spectrum.

 I believe that it's good to share information about the effects of scale on SL, but that is in no way a judgement on tall avatars or a demand that they re-size themselves. LL themselves can easily correct the issue by taking steps I detail in the linked article.

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Perrie Juran wrote:

On a final note, I didn't choose my Avatar height per se.  I just accepted the Avatar that I was presented with when I started SL.  I didn't do it (make it 7 foot tall) as one poster suggested in another thread because I have self esteem issues in RL.  It was what it was and it looked "Believable" in the Second Life world.  The only thing I changed (downsized) was my prim **bleep** because in RL it would have been considered attack with a deadly weapon.


 

 This is an extremely important point.

 The starter avatars are all about 7' tall. Specifically, the women starters are 6'8" and the men are 7'1". This is the primary reason so many avatars are oversized. Not because of self esteem issues or a desire to be deliberately that tall, but because that is how tall LL started them.

 Add to that the broken appearance editor displaying incorrect height (whatever the appearance editor tells you your height is is actually about 6 inches shorter than what you really are) and the fact that for the better part of SL's existance there was absolutely no height indication in the appearance editor at all.

 To top it all off, creating a shape in SL is actually pretty difficult, and the shapes LL provides when you try to create a new shape are all way too large and have extremely poor proportions. I'd like to see LL provide a full set of starter shape templates, featuring a range of sizes, body types and builds to help people who are trying to create a new shape.

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Penny Patton wrote:

This is an extremely important point.

 The starter avatars are all about 7' tall. Specifically, the women starters are 6'8" and the men are 7'1".
This is the primary reason so many avatars are oversized
. Not because of self esteem issues or a desire to be deliberately that tall, but because that is how tall LL started them.

 

Though I have not been very vocal about it I have in general been against the "Smaller Avatar" movement in SL.  If the discussion was simply about the fact it makes for better use of resources I could get behind it.  But most of the arguments have centered around the statement,  "My height is 'normal,' therefore you are abnormal.  Nope, I am not abnormal, what I am is BELIEVABLE in the existing SL environment.  Not perfect, but believable.  And I am sorry to say but I believe it was you whom I was paraphrasing from another thread about the "self esteem issues."  If it wasn't you, my apologies, but whomever it was that said that pissed me off greatly.

It would be nice if Linden Lab could just push a button and the entire SL world rescaled to have accurate height measures as you describe.  But I don't think it can be done.  PROPORTIONS are a huge issue.  To just say, reduce all builds by 10% will not work. Too many different things will require too many different adjustments.

If I can find it (I think I should still have it), several years ago Bits & Bobs had a note card discussing the challenges of designing and aligning couple poses.  It is not as easy as one may think, especially because all Avatars are not the same height.  So what they had to do was decide on a happy medium for the default positions.

I believe the same is true for the default design of Second Life, and that the default is set to make the basic world look as BELIEVABLE as possible across the widest variety of user's hardware.

For example, we don't all use the same size monitors set at the same screen resolutions.  When SL started, wide screens were the exception.  And actually most wide screens violate the Fibonacci series which unknown to many people contributes greatly to eye strain because it forces your eyes to move in an unnatural manner.  But regardless of that, the way the world appears on a 15 inch lap top screen is different than how it appears on a 45 inch true 1080i screen.  So again, unless you are advocating only people with the highest of high tech should be allowed to enjoy SL, a happy medium has to be struck in order to make the Second Life world enjoyable to the maximum number of users.

Overall, it's just not as simple as saying, "OK Linden Lab, wave your magic wand and fix it."

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