PBR Materials @SL University

[Gavin Hird]

1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

..no?

No what?

[Love Zhaoying]

11 minutes ago, Gavin Hird said:

No what?

No, as in disagreement.

[Qie Niangao]

8 hours ago, EliseAnne85 said:

Yeah, I've looked around for free ones.  But, I hate Blender and it hates me.  I have always been a Photoshop person.  I'm searching now how to make PBR in Photoshop wherein I'm still in the totally confused stage.

Photoshop is too pricey for me, but I do a little crude specularmap and normalmap butchery in Gimp, so I'll be interested in what's possible with PBR. (I could resort to Blender, I don't find it that bad, I just hate the tedium of 3D modelling when I could be scripting instead.)

But why does the Lab insist on using the most expensive packages for everything? They used Maya for years until third parties introduced enough SL-targeted Blender add-ons to make Maya pretty much irrelevant. That'll happen with Substance Painter too, soon enough, so why do they even bother with it? Maybe they need to interact directly with developer support that's only available with the most expensive products in a category?

[Ernst Osterham]

PBR would be a nice addition so long as it:

1.) Doesn’t tank framerates

2.) Doesn’t break existing content 

SL has managed to preserve prior building techniques so far for the most part, so I’m hopeful. If it becomes a case of non-pbr items no longer visually blending in with the new pbr items it will be a major reduction in variety in SL.  We have a lot of assets in world that are popular and used all over which are now pushing a decade old using the old SL rendering system.  A lot of the creators have left SL, died, or simply can’t/won’t update their massive back catalog by completely retexturing them. 

 

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said:

Photoshop is too pricey for me, but I do a little crude specularmap and normalmap butchery in Gimp, so I'll be interested in what's possible with PBR. (I could resort to Blender, I don't find it that bad, I just hate the tedium of 3D modelling when I could be scripting instead.)

But why does the Lab insist on using the most expensive packages for everything? They used Maya for years until third parties introduced enough SL-targeted Blender add-ons to make Maya pretty much irrelevant. That'll happen with Substance Painter too, soon enough, so why do they even bother with it? Maybe they need to interact directly with developer support that's only available with the most expensive products in a category?

When adding new features it makes sense to at least try and conform to industry standards, which are usually most prevalent in (and sometimes even defined by) the current most popular apps, which due to their popularity are almost always expensive (in other words, it's a coincidence not a conspiracy).

In the case of both mesh and PBR neither feature is in any way "locked" to specific apps, any software that supports PBR can be used to generate materials for SL in the same way that any 3D app can be used to create mesh.

[Ceka Cianci]

27 minutes ago, Ernst Osterham said:

PBR would be a nice addition so long as it:

1.) Doesn’t tank framerates

2.) Doesn’t break existing content 

SL has managed to preserve prior building techniques so far for the most part, so I’m hopeful. If it becomes a case of non-pbr items no longer visually blending in with the new pbr items it will be a major reduction in variety in SL.  We have a lot of assets in world that are popular and used all over which are now pushing a decade old using the old SL rendering system.  A lot of the creators have left SL, died, or simply can’t/won’t update their massive back catalog by completely retexturing them. 

 

Honestly, I think there are still a lot of people running around without ALM even on.. A lot are just trying to move around without lagging as much as they can so they turn things way down..

What I'm wondering is, if newer content concentrates on those newer material layers that a lot of users don't even have turned on, is things gonna start to look more crappy than before or  will it not change things much at all?

I was watching Medhue messing with the metalic layers and I was thinking to myself how many people aren't even gonna ever see those..

 

 

[Candide LeMay]

1 hour ago, Ceka Cianci said:

Honestly, I think there are still a lot of people running around without ALM even on. I was watching Medhue messing with the metalic layers and I was thinking to myself how many people aren't even gonna ever see those.

In the PBR viewer it's no longer possible to disable ALM - it's always on, so everyone should (finally!) see the same thing.

[Arielle Popstar]

18 minutes ago, Candide LeMay said:

In the PBR viewer it's no longer possible to disable ALM - it's always on, so everyone should (finally!) see the same thing.

Well those people who will be left after having to have ALM always on because as another poster pointed out, a lot don't have it on because of its lag inducing characteristics. Then too differences in EEP and/or windlight settings will also prevent everyone seeing the same as personal multiple tests have shown where under one lighting condition I will see different shadings between head and body resulting in me always wearing a choker to hide seams even if invisible in my own viewer.

[Ceka Cianci]

30 minutes ago, Candide LeMay said:

In the PBR viewer it's no longer possible to disable ALM - it's always on, so everyone should (finally!) see the same thing.

The last thread I remember on this, they were working on something where it won't be a forced change.. Maybe they changed their minds on that?

[EliseAnne85]

57 minutes ago, Candide LeMay said:

In the PBR viewer it's no longer possible to disable ALM - it's always on, so everyone should (finally!) see the same thing.

Doing this could result in a third of SL's current user base having to upgrade computer equipment -  it's been said to a gaming computer or gaming laptop.  

However, one person in another thread on PBR said she has a super-duper gaming computer and ALM makes her fans go on.  ALM has fan issues or it's a bug.

I run ALM sparingly.  I have the same fan issues but different in that I have to clean my fans frequently but I'm lucky I can do that in that I have a desktop.  I have to clean frequently because of ALM because I can see the dust build up on the front of my machine from ALM.  

If this is true, it could be SL suicide because people may have to buy a gaming laptop before they can even see if they like pbr/ALM and I don't know how many people want to do that.

What it showed in the video on the OP, there are two menus - the regular build menu and then you click on the object and select 'add PBR Materials' and another menu opens.  So, it seems like it's a choice if there are two menus.  But, ALM will be forced?  Ugh.  Facepalm.

Edited February 11, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[arton Rotaru]

My fans get noisy with the PBR viewer, when I don't limit the FPS to 60 (I turn VSync on), because, otherwise it's running at 200 FPS with Shadows, SSAO, SSR enabled.

[Ceka Cianci]

10 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

Doing this could result in a third of SL's current user base having to upgrade computer equipment -  it's been said to a gaming computer or gaming laptop.  

However, one person in another thread on PBR said she has a super-duper gaming computer and ALM makes her fans go on.  ALM has fan issues or it's a bug.

I run ALM sparingly.  I have the same fan issues but different in that I have to clean my fans frequently but I'm lucky I can do that in that I have a desktop.  I have to clean frequently because of ALM because I can see the dust build up on the front of my machine from ALM.  

If this is true, it could be SL suicide because people may have to buy a gaming laptop before they can even see if they like ALM and I don't know how many people want to do that.

What it showed in the video on the OP, there are two menus - the regular build menu and then you click on the object and select 'add PBR Materials' and another menu opens.  So, it seems like it's a choice if there are two menus.  But, PBR will be forced?  Ugh.  Facepalm.

I just looked back on that other thread and it was said that it would only be removed if it does not adversely impact performance.. that it runs as well with it as without it..

My memory sucks really hehehe

This is the notes I found on that topic back then..

 

Edited February 11, 2023 by Ceka Cianci

[arton Rotaru]

26 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

The last thread I remember on this, they were working on something where it won't be a forced change.. Maybe they changed their minds on that?

It will be a forced change. But it's still possible to disable Reflections, Shadows, SSAO, transparent water etc..

[Ceka Cianci]

1 minute ago, arton Rotaru said:

It will be a forced change. But it's still possible to disable Reflections, Shadows, SSAO, transparent water etc..

Ya, I went back and found what they had said back then.. It was awhile ago so my memory of what was actually said was a little off..

for some reason I couldn't find it before.. Maybe I was still a little low on my tea intake, but I'm on full now.. hehehe

[EliseAnne85]

9 minutes ago, arton Rotaru said:

My fans get noisy with the PBR viewer, when I don't limit the FPS to 60 (I turn VSync on), because, otherwise it's running at 200 FPS with Shadows, SSAO, SSR enabled.

So, are you saying one needs to have VSync on to run ALM?  I don't know how much that will please the FPS people.  The FPS people seem to think if SL runs at low FPS, it's no good which is absolutely NOT true.  However, I don't want noisy fans at all.  Mine make no sound at all, none, zero, zip with ALM but I have to keep my fans constantly clean which is a pain.

[benchthis]

It would be most optimal to be able to avoid using a 3rd party programs to create maps. If I were building the materials panel I would make it where based on the base color map, option to generate metallic and roughness map, generate emissive, and generate normal map. 

I've noticed that each of those map types has a fee to upload. LL can still earn revenue have a fee to generate map button, I would say avoid the fees because the content created will generate revenue passivly. 

If the goal is to make materials as simple for users as possible this to me would tick that box. And then for the products we've purchased in the past that are mod we can generate maps for those objects as well.

[arton Rotaru]

1 minute ago, EliseAnne85 said:

So, are you saying one needs to have VSync on to run ALM?  I don't know how much that will please the FPS people.  The FPS people seem to think if SL runs at low FPS, it's no good which is absolutely NOT true.  However, I don't want noisy fans at all.  Mine make no sound at all, none, zero, zip with ALM but I have to keep my fans constantly clean which is a pain.

No, I'm just saying that the PBR viewer is running so well, that it even with all the fancy features like shadows, screen space ambient occlusion, and screen space reflections turned on, it's running at 200 FPS on my PC (which isn't a spectacular fancy one). I don't need 200 FPS personally.

 

[arton Rotaru]

8 minutes ago, benchthis said:

It would be most optimal to be able to avoid using a 3rd party programs to create maps. If I were building the materials panel I would make it where based on the base color map, option to generate metallic and roughness map, generate emissive, and generate normal map.

Hehe, that fancy "make art button". Would be quite boring for texture artists if it would be that simple.

Edited February 11, 2023 by arton Rotaru

[EliseAnne85]

3 minutes ago, arton Rotaru said:

Hehe, that fancy "make art button". Would be quite boring for texture artists if it would be that simple.

Not necessarily, most of the art of texturing would be in the color base or where the main map would be, I'd think.  It's like if you make a normal map, all the normal map is doing is indenting some areas of the main map which needs no artistic talent.  

[benchthis]

9 minutes ago, arton Rotaru said:

Hehe, that fancy "make art button". Would be quite boring for texture artist if it would be that simple.

Meta is already creating 3D worlds and models (shame they are being managed by someone whom clearly has no idea what they are doing). At this point Second Life should be able to generate UV maps based on a base color map. 

 

Edited February 11, 2023 by benchthis

[arton Rotaru]

1 minute ago, EliseAnne85 said:

Not necessarily, most of the art of texturing would be in the color base or where the main map would be, I'd think.  It's like if you make a normal map, all the normal map is doing is indenting some areas of the main map which needs no artistic talent.  

IDK, that sounds like it couldn't be farther from the truth.

[arton Rotaru]

1 minute ago, benchthis said:

At this point Second Life should be able to generate UV maps based on a base color map. 

Err, the UV map is what dictates what the base color map is like in the first place.

[EliseAnne85]

2 minutes ago, arton Rotaru said:

IDK, that sounds like it couldn't be farther from the truth.

Well, you gotta tweak the normal map a little but it's basically an impression of the main map.  

If what I'm saying is farther from the truth, than give an example why.

[benchthis]

1 minute ago, arton Rotaru said:

Err, the UV map is what dictates what the base color map is like in the first place.

If I made a model in blender and create the UV map and add texture to that UV map in blender. When the model is uploaded to Second Life the materials panel will see the UV map with original texture map. from there SL should be able to generate the metallic and roughness map, generate emissive map, and generate normal map.

Sorry my wording is strange. 

[arton Rotaru]

4 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

Well, you gotta tweak the normal map a little but it's basically an impression of the main map.  

If what I'm saying is farther from the truth, than give an example why.

Before there is a base color map, you will have created a normal map already. To create a normal map, you create a highpoly version of your in-game lowpoly model. From your normal map you derive other map types, like curvature, cavity, convexity, which all contribute to a base color map creation.

Edited February 11, 2023 by arton Rotaru