PBR Materials @SL University

[EliseAnne85]

5 minutes ago, benchthis said:

Meta is already creating 3D worlds and models (shame they are being managed by someone whom clearly has no idea what they are doing). At this point Second Life should be able to generate UV maps based on a base color map. 

 

I thought you meant generate materials maps based on the base color map (main map).  That would be great, imo.  But, I'm still here wondering if I want to hassle with ALM on at all times.  This is a big leap, but I want to take this slowly and gather info before I leap.

[benchthis]

3 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

Well, you gotta tweak the normal map a little but it's basically an impression of the main map.  

If what I'm saying is farther from the truth, than give an example why.

We should be able to not only generate the additional maps in Second Life, we should be able to also tweak those maps  

They want to build it correct the first time. There you go. 

[arton Rotaru]

3 minutes ago, benchthis said:

If I made a model in blender and create the UV map and add texture to that UV map in blender. When the model is uploaded to Second Life the materials panel will see the UV map with original texture map. from there SL should be able to generate the metallic and roughness map, generate emissive map, and generate normal map.

Sorry my wording is strange. 

Well, with such an approach you might get a world with people with no legs.

[Qie Niangao]

So there's a way to use 2D programs like Gimp and (I presume) Photoshop to generate a pseudo normalmap based on luminance of the diffusemap. Basically it assumes the brighter parts of the diffusemap protrude and the darker parts are in shadow because they're recessed. Obviously this is a hideous hack, but it works surprisingly well if you're starting from photographic images.

The thing is, with PBR especially, one would then want to "back out" the luminance differences to create a base image that doesn't look over-baked when proper lighting is applied.

[benchthis]

3 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

I thought you meant generate materials maps based on the base color map (main map).  That would be great, imo.  But, I'm still here wondering if I want to hassle with ALM on at all times.  This is a big leap, but I want to take this slowly and gather info before I leap.

Hopefully it will be more efficient when it's finished. 

Another good reason to have the additional maps generated in world is because in world our color data is perfect to our world. If we are uploading 100,000s of maps that are not native to our colors could spell problems. 

The SL system imo would run better with more native tools, especially when it comes to color. Even though one program like blender says these new maps are true, when uploaded to SL there's chance the colors would not match or be as true. 

We're going to get the best results if the PBR material maps were generated in world. 

just a concern. 

[EliseAnne85]

4 minutes ago, arton Rotaru said:

Before there is a base color map, you will have created a normal map already. To create a normal map, you create a highpoly version of your in-game lowpoly model. From your normal map you derive other map types, like curvature, cavity, convexity, which all contribute to a base color map creation.

Okay, I work with others who do the mesh building.  I am a texture artist and designer.  I do the design, they build it, I do the textures.  So, with PBR, my builder gives me main map (is there an option for blank or done) and normal and then with the inworld tools I could just add metalness and whatever else map I need as they are just impressions essentially, aren't they?  So, where is the fun for those who are texture artists?  You are saying PBR is all do it yourself, all by yourself then.  

 

[arton Rotaru]

OK, metalness, how will it know what of the map is actually metal, and what isn't?
OK, roughness, how will it know what is dirt/rust/grime and what is polished?
OK, what is with the AO map?

Edited February 11, 2023 by arton Rotaru

[arton Rotaru]

7 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

You are saying PBR is all do it yourself, all by yourself then.

Indeed, it's still the artist who will have to make the decisions.

[benchthis]

7 minutes ago, arton Rotaru said:

Indeed, it's still the artist who will have to make the decisions.

Would it make more sense to make last minute tweak decisions in world vs going back and forth back and forth. Leads to burn out. If there's a problem with additional maps have to outside SL again and again. upload upload. not fun.

It seems like something like this would not be so difficult to create. 

Edited February 11, 2023 by benchthis

[arton Rotaru]

8 minutes ago, benchthis said:

Would it make more sense to make last minute tweak decisions in world vs going back and forth back and forth. Leads to burn out. If there's a problem with additional maps have to outside SL again and again. upload upload. not fun. Not FUN. 

It seems like something like this would not be so difficult to create. 

You can load gltf materials as local materials just like the local texture feature with legacy materials.

Edited February 11, 2023 by arton Rotaru

[EliseAnne85]

1 hour ago, arton Rotaru said:

No, I'm just saying that the PBR viewer is running so well, that it even with all the fancy features like shadows, screen space ambient occlusion, and screen space reflections turned on, it's running at 200 FPS on my PC (which isn't a spectacular fancy one). I don't need 200 FPS personally.

 

Most people don't need 200 FPS but you said with ALM on your fans are noisy, so you reduce to 60 FPS with VSync because of ALM.  That's quite a drop for the FPS people.  I never said you were a FPS people, but there are those that are, which is pretty much stupid to be a FPS person because SL is user generated content, it's not streamlined content like games they came from so the FPS people think SL is crap if it runs at 60.  The FPS people think that's makes SL a joke all the while they know nothing of the difference between streamlined content and content that is not.

However, if one can't just do mesh building, and one can't do just texturing instead of doing it all, this sounds like too much work.  A lot of us prefer to split up the work.  

I think this whole PBR thing is heading towards nothing but something commercial.  And, it sounds like no fun.

Edited February 11, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[Rowan Amore]

60 fps is more than enough for SL to run smoothly.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

On 2/9/2023 at 8:41 PM, Arielle Popstar said:

A video here showing the PBR Materials in the Beta Grid

Some interesting effects but do you think it is a worthy tradeoff to some other basic features they could have worked on instead?

This is a tricky one. It's a worthwhile and necessary feature as far as bringing the platform more up to date and in line with industry standards in terms of game development, absolutely. However, as a regular user, I don't care about it. Let me know when it's in and I'm good. I don't need all the details surrounding how it works and why and I doubt it'll have much impact on me at all (considering I'm so used to seeing it in other games anyway - not really going to surprise me one way or another).

I have absolutely zero interest in 3D modeling. I'm not a 3D modeler, never took classes in it, never studied it, don't care about it. My knowledge of Photoshop and other software comes from studying graphic design - not game development. Toss me into PS or Illustrator or any other program in that realm, and I could design your brand identity, but don't ask me for this kind of thing.

Funny enough, though, I absolutely adore building games - Minecraft, WURM, Rimworld, Oxygen Not Included, Valheim, No Man's Sky, The Sims, Kenshi, and of course, old Second Life (which is why I came here originally to begin with). Give me the tools and make them easy to understand and I'll build a whole house, town, city, or base. But if I have to open up 3D software to do it, that's me out.

I think this is going to be a big boon for SL creators, of course, and I don't blame them one bit for getting excited about this. Unfortunately, the further SL moves into the 3D software realm (Substance Painter looks amaaaazing, but I have zero use for it), the more I feel like skipping off to tinker somewhere else that makes building and creating easily accessible to everyone playing the game (I know, I knowww SL is not a game I knowwwww 😁).

[EliseAnne85]

7 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

60 fps is more than enough for SL to run smoothly.

Yeah we know that but I've seen posts on here that say that's crap and 60 FPS is a joke.  Why, because games they come from the content is streamlined and made for that game.  Here, that's not the way it is as content is all over the place, it's user-generated.  

So, I am remarking on remarks I've seen for years about SL and it's FPS at 60 or below.  Seems they want 125 or more.  I am not FPS people but I've seen enough of their posts.  Doesn't matter what we know or think about SL's more difficult content that isn't game-streamlined, they leave anyways.  

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

1 hour ago, arton Rotaru said:

To create a normal map, you create a highpoly version of your in-game lowpoly model.

OR you can just hand paint your normal maps from scratch in Photoshop like this guy did...

(and yes he apparently didn't even bother painting a height map and using a filter to convert it to a normal map but chose to create the entire normal map by hand)

Quote

I basically put a flat NM value as the background (128.128.255) and started painting using a normalize sphere as a ref, defined the edges of each bricks to get a nice pattern and then started defining the details/layers a bit more

I personally wouldn't recommend it, if you're trying to drive yourself insane there are probably easier and less painful ways to do so.

[EliseAnne85]

7 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Unfortunately, the further SL moves into the 3D software realm (Substance Painter looks amaaaazing, but I have zero use for it), the more I feel like skipping off to tinker somewhere else that makes building and creating easily accessible to everyone playing the game

Exactly.  100% this.  

[Rowan Amore]

15 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

Yeah we know that but I've seen posts on here that say that's crap and 60 FPS is a joke.  Why, because games they come from the content is streamlined and made for that game.  Here, that's not the way it is as content is all over the place, it's user-generated.  

So, I am remarking on remarks I've seen for years about SL and it's FPS at 60 or below.  Seems they want 125 or more.  I am not FPS people but I've seen enough of their posts.  Doesn't matter what we know or think about SL's more difficult content that isn't game-streamlined, they leave anyways.  

The thing is, with the new viewers, we CAN get high numbers, no problem.  I can even wirelessly on my laptop.  But, I don't NEED it that high for anything in SL.  

What Is A Good FPS For Gaming? [2023 Answer] - GPU Mag

At 120 FPS, things look different. Of course, the picture is smoother than at 60 FPS, but most gamers still consider playing at 120 FPS to be too much.

Edited February 11, 2023 by Rowan Amore

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said:

So there's a way to use 2D programs like Gimp and (I presume) Photoshop to generate a pseudo normalmap based on luminance of the diffusemap. Basically it assumes the brighter parts of the diffusemap protrude and the darker parts are in shadow because they're recessed. Obviously this is a hideous hack, but it works surprisingly well if you're starting from photographic images.

The thing is, with PBR especially, one would then want to "back out" the luminance differences to create a base image that doesn't look over-baked when proper lighting is applied.

For most textures, especially those with lots of straight edges and geometric shapes like bricks/tiles/fencing, you'll achieve far better results if you create your own height map and then generate a normal map from that.  It can sometimes help to then generate a second normal map based on the luminance value of the diffuse, add it as a new layer and then use a mask to selectively add details from it to your hand made normal map but relying purely on a normal map derived from the luminance values of the base texture will rarely yield good or even acceptable results.

[Janet Voxel]

I can’t wait to play around with this tomorrow on the beta grid.

[Gavin Hird]

1 hour ago, EliseAnne85 said:

I think this whole PBR thing is heading towards nothing but something commercial.  And, it sounds like no fun.

SL on Xbox is my 10 cents

[Gavin Hird]

34 minutes ago, Janet Voxel said:

I can’t wait to play around with this tomorrow on the beta grid.

Lots of reflection bling, otherwise underwhelmed...

[EliseAnne85]

50 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

The thing is, with the new viewers, we CAN get high numbers, no problem.  I can even wirelessly on my laptop.  But, I don't NEED it that high for anything in SL.  

What Is A Good FPS For Gaming? [2023 Answer] - GPU Mag

At 120 FPS, things look different. Of course, the picture is smoother than at 60 FPS, but most gamers still consider playing at 120 FPS to be too much.

We were talking about ALM.  In the new PBR viewer they are saying it will be forced to on at all times.  Oh my gah.  This is the problem.

As to what gamers on the forum have said that 60 is too low [for them], it's neither here nor there really.  It's all their opinion or first impression of SL.

I don't care about FPS at this juncture but I'm not so sure I want to run ALM if it causes fan problems, which it does for many.  Narrowing down the why of that is more important.  ALM is an energy hog that is for one reason.  ALM needs a stronger power supply, I'm guessing.

[EliseAnne85]

6 minutes ago, Gavin Hird said:

Lots of reflection bling, otherwise underwhelmed...

Those would be words I'd use from the pictures I posted on page 1.  I found it very underwhelming but I did also say this PBR thing is nascent [for SL], although I've had a feeling it's not for me.  The shiny parts look very fake.  See page 1 of this thread for pictures.  

Edited February 11, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[arton Rotaru]

1 hour ago, EliseAnne85 said:

Most people don't need 200 FPS but you said with ALM on your fans are noisy, so you reduce to 60 FPS with VSync because of ALM.

No, you are still missing the mark. I'm saying that the performance of the PBR viewer is much better for me even with all the rendering features turned on, than what I get with a current viewer with all the fancy features off. If that is considered a bad thing, I don't know what to say.

[arton Rotaru]

2 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

Those would be words I'd use from the pictures I posted on page 1.  I found it very underwhelming but I did also say this PBR thing is nascent, although I've had a feeling it's not for me.  The shiny parts look very fake.  See page 1 of this thread for pictures.  

PBR and the reflection probes doesn't come across in static pictures.