PBR Materials @SL University

[Innula Zenovka]

21 hours ago, arton Rotaru said:

I don't need 200 FPS personally.

Maybe I'm missing the point, but since the simulator can't run faster than 45 fps, isn't anything greater than that wasted?

Meanwhile, the standard framerate at which movies and TV shows are made is 24 fps.

I never pay much attention to my fps unless I'm in a very laggy environment -- lots of moving avatars, and lots of textures and complex objects for the viewer to render -- but unless if falls much below 20 I very rarely have cause to notice it, since everything seems to be working to a perfectly acceptable standard.

Additionally, whatever framerate my viewer is reporting, what I actually see is surely going to be limited by the refresh rate of my monitor, which is 60 Hz -- that is, the screen refreshes itself 60 times a second, so no matter what the viewer thinks it's doing, 60 fps is all I'm going to see.  (Windows users can check theirs with Settings>Display>Advanced Display).

What am I missing by not having 200 fps in SL? 

 

 

Edited February 12, 2023 by Innula Zenovka

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

17 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

What am I missing by not having 200 fps in SL? 

Absolutely nothing!

The majority of people that buy 240hz game monitors do so because they believe that if their game/screen updates 240 times per second it will give them an advantage over other players who only get a measly 60 frames per second, which of course just results in them having to find other excuses for why they still suck so bad. 😅

[Jenna Huntsman]

18 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

but since the simulator can't run faster than 45 fps, isn't anything greater than that wasted?

Simulator framerate is a bit of a misnomer - it doesn't have any bearing on your client framerate.

If you're using a monitor which has a refresh rate of 60hz (What most monitors use, some are higher, but if you're not sure you're likely using a 60hz monitor), then you'll see smoother animations when SL is running at or more than 60fps. You'll also have less input lag, and camera movements will be smoother.

Having a framerate above your monitor's refresh rate is a bit pointless in SL, which is actually why I find myself running with Vsync on most of the time, especially on mobile computers (Laptop, Steam Deck, etc.) where batteries are a concern.

22 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

standard framerate at which movies and TV shows are made is 24 fps.

Yup, although it's a bit more complex than that as outside of North America 25 fps is the standard for film, 50 fps for TV (60 in the NA) and for *some* films you'll see 48 fps used. (I work in the industry, this is pointless in an SL context but hey, you just learned something!)

[Rick Nightingale]

I was thinking that, but the viewer

22 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

Maybe I'm missing the point, but since the simulator can't run faster than 45 fps, isn't anything greater than that wasted?

 

I was thinking that too, but the viewer can interpolate movement in-between server updates, and there are also purely viewer side things like llTargetOmega and particles.

There's still no need for framerates beyond what is required for normally smooth viewing though. Higher framerates are craved by gamers for that extra 0.01 second or so they think gives them an edge in shooting or dodging... can't say I've ever been good enough to notice myself. It's useless in SL.

[Innula Zenovka]

12 minutes ago, Jenna Huntsman said:

If you're using a monitor which has a refresh rate of 60hz (What most monitors use, some are higher, but if you're not sure you're likely using a 60hz monitor), then you'll see smoother animations when SL is running at or more than 60fps. You'll also have less input lag, and camera movements will be smoother.

Aren't most SL animations uploaded at 24fps, though?   That's what my animator friends tell me is the standard.    

I'm having difficulty understanding how all these different rates affect each other.

[Jenna Huntsman]

2 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

Aren't most SL animations uploaded at 24fps, though?

SL animations don't have a framerate - They will run at the viewer's framerate. SL animations are a keyframe based system, and the viewer will interpolate between keyframes (This is why there isn't a framerate for animations, as it literally doesn't matter) - also, it allows LL to 'simplify' animations by removing a bunch of unnecessary data when joints are being moved around, as for the most part this happens at a constant speed, so the only thing that matters is the start and end points, and the time between them.

[Innula Zenovka]

15 minutes ago, Jenna Huntsman said:

SL animations don't have a framerate - They will run at the viewer's framerate. SL animations are a keyframe based system, and the viewer will interpolate between keyframes (This is why there isn't a framerate for animations, as it literally doesn't matter) - also, it allows LL to 'simplify' animations by removing a bunch of unnecessary data when joints are being moved around, as for the most part this happens at a constant speed, so the only thing that matters is the start and end points, and the time between them.

So what does this mean, please?

https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/BVH_Frame_Rate#:~:text=While Second Life lossily compresses,45 FPS for all animations.

[Jenna Huntsman]

1 minute ago, Innula Zenovka said:

So what does this mean, please?

https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/BVH_Frame_Rate#:~:text=While Second Life lossily compresses,45 FPS for all animations.

That page is full of misinformation and was written by a user over 10 years ago.

I'm going to add a warning to that page saying that the information contained is incorrect, as while some of the content of the page is correct, broadly speaking it gives people the wrong idea on how things actually work - so ignore the content of that page.

[Innula Zenovka]

12 minutes ago, Jenna Huntsman said:

That page is full of misinformation and was written by a user over 10 years ago.

I'm going to add a warning to that page saying that the information contained is incorrect, as while some of the content of the page is correct, broadly speaking it gives people the wrong idea on how things actually work - so ignore the content of that page.

Thanks.   But when an animator tells me his animations are 24 fps, he must mean something.   Maybe I should ask him, but certainly several experience animators I know are under the impression -- possibly mistaken -- that the animations they've uploaded to SL have a particular framerate, and whenever I've calculated the time at which a script should do something,  based on this and what happens a particular number of frames into the animation, the results have been what I'd expect.   For example, if the animation has the avatar start to move their right arm at frame 96, the movement starts about 4 seconds into the animation.

Edited February 12, 2023 by Innula Zenovka

[Jenna Huntsman]

5 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

But when an animator tells me his animations are 24 fps, he must mean something.

He does, as the BVH file format does use a fixed framerate. But the BVH format is only the interchange format, and it's not what SL uses internally. It's also worth noting that BVH is on the chopping block, as it's planned for SL to transition to using glTF for it's animation format (This doesn't mean that you won't be able to upload BVH files, but it will no longer be the primary interchange format). glTF animation, like SL's internal format, doesn't use a fixed framerate for animation.

[EliseAnne85]

11 hours ago, arton Rotaru said:

It's not cutting out PS. You can still create textures the traditional way. It's just that tools like Painter make it more convenient. In the end it's just texture maps. No matter with what they are created. It's also never the fault of a program when the result isn't what you expect it to be. It's ALWAYS the artist who is to blame.

That may be true with subscription Photoshop.  I run my old PS from a DVD program, that is about 10 years old, I don't think it has the material making capabilities for PBR.  Materials for normal are easy to make somewhere else as the current system is.  But, where will a material maker be for those who are using older photoshops?  Materials haven't been that big of a hit in SL anyway.  Most people I know use ALM sparingly or not at all but this change over to PBR forces ALM and maps.  Or peeps will turn everything off, but it's said in this thread ALM will be forced to on.

Edited February 12, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[Jenna Huntsman]

1 minute ago, EliseAnne85 said:

That may be true with subscription Photoshop.  I run my old PS from a DVD program, that is about 10 years old, I don't think it has the material making capabilities for PBR.  Materials for normal are easy to make somewhere else as the current system is.  But, where will a material maker be for those who are using older photoshops?  Materials haven't been that big of a hit in SL anyway.  Most people I know use ALM sparingly or not at all but this forces ALM and maps.  

*coughs*

https://www.materialmaker.org/

Among many other things it's capable of, it can generate the PBR maps (Normal, ORM, Emissive) from an input base colour map (Similar, though not the same as SL's current diffuse map)

[EliseAnne85]

Just now, Jenna Huntsman said:

*coughs*

https://www.materialmaker.org/

Among many other things it's capable of, it can generate the PBR maps (Normal, ORM, Emissive) from an input base colour map (Similar, though not the same as SL's current diffuse map)

I found that one yesterday while searching for free PBR materials makers and bookmarked it but haven't checked it out yet.  I'm not sure what you mean by not the same as SL's current diffuse map.   

[Jenna Huntsman]

2 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

I found that one yesterday while searching for free PBR materials makers and bookmarked it but haven't checked it out yet.  I'm not sure what you mean by not the same as SL's current diffuse map.   

For a technical writeup about the differences, see here:
https://resources.turbosquid.com/stemcell/stemcell-3d-modeling-workflow/stemcell-textures-materials/diffuse-specular-vs-basecolor/

But for a more simple explanation, to quote a Reddit user:

Quote

Diffuse refers to older generation ( pre_PBR ) where we used to bake down AO . Or shading on it . Then with PBR the name changed to Albedo (base color) because it works a little bit differently . As with Albedo (base color) you want only color data on the map . Any baked shading on it will look wrong .

 

[Love Zhaoying]

Will we be able to use reflective materials in clothing?

[EliseAnne85]

10 minutes ago, Jenna Huntsman said:

Diffuse refers to older generation ( pre_PBR ) where we used to bake down AO . Or shading on it . Then with PBR the name changed to Albedo (base color) because it works a little bit differently . As with Albedo (base color) you want only color data on the map . Any baked shading on it will look wrong .

Oh, I see.  

However, we could lose a lot of current great content then.

Edited February 12, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

Oh, I see.  

However, we could lose a lot of current great content then.

..won't the new PBR material rendering be enabled at the individual material level @Jenna Huntsman @Innula Zenovka? LL wouldn't just break the current content.

[Jenna Huntsman]

5 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

Oh, I see.  

However, we could lose a lot of current great content then.

 

Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

..won't the new PBR material rendering be enabled at the individual material level @Jenna Huntsman @Innula Zenovka? LL wouldn't just break the current content.

No, existing content will continue working fine. The current materials workflow is staying (albeit with some small changes, which make it easier to use!), but the PBR workflow is being implemented alongside. This means that existing content will continue working as it always has, but it will look dated compared to the newer PBR content  (As is the tale with advancements in many things).

[EliseAnne85]

11 hours ago, arton Rotaru said:

It's also never the fault of a program when the result isn't what you expect it to be. It's ALWAYS the artist who is to blame.

I don't necessarily agree with this because I've seen many PBR commercials come thru my YouTube plus watched a few videos on PBR and it looks like people are just putting a flat color on the base color area (albedo area) and it lacks depth.  The lighting and maps are going to have to make up for that lack of depth in the color.  With PS there was so much subtly and depth one could add into the texture itself.  However, this is commercials on YouTube not generated from SL.  I'll have to see what SL artists can do.  

[Arlequin Carter]

Bonjour à tous Cette petite vidéo pour vous montrer les évolutions futures de Second Life avec de nouvelles fonctionnalités de rendu de matière et des effets de réflexion de la lumière de type miroir.

Cela nous ramène en 1985 où l'on faisait déjà ce type de calcul sur les premiers AMIGA 1000 de Commodore et un peut plus tard avec Sculpt 3D pour la création d'image avec la technologie de Ray tracing.

On était bien loin du minimum de 25 images par seconde minimum, mais ça faisait son effet à l'époque. Au mieux on générait 1 image sur 24h en résolution 800x600 pixels.

Les nouvelles cartes graphiques commencent à intégrer le ray tracing à l'horizon de 40 ans plus tard.

Sur SL on en est pas là, mais cela commence à voir le jour.

Quelle technologie est empruntée, je ne le sais pas, cependant, je souhaite bon courage à nos ingénieurs informaticien de Linden Lab.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello to all This little video to show you the future evolutions of Second Life with new features of material rendering and mirror-like light reflection effects.

This brings us back to 1985 when we were already doing this type of calculation on the first AMIGA 1000 from Commodore and a little later with Sculpt 3D for the creation of images with Ray tracing technology.

We were far from the minimum of 25 frames per second, but it was working at the time.

At best we were generating 1 image per 24 hours in 800x600 pixel resolution.

The new graphics cards are starting to integrate ray tracing on the horizon of 40 years later.

On SL we're not there yet, but it's starting to happen. What technology is borrowed, I don't know, however, I wish our computer engineers at Linden Lab good luck.

[arton Rotaru]

1 hour ago, EliseAnne85 said:

That may be true with subscription Photoshop.  I run my old PS from a DVD program, that is about 10 years old, I don't think it has the material making capabilities for PBR.  Materials for normal are easy to make somewhere else as the current system is.  But, where will a material maker be for those who are using older photoshops?  Materials haven't been that big of a hit in SL anyway.  Most people I know use ALM sparingly or not at all but this change over to PBR forces ALM and maps.  Or peeps will turn everything off, but it's said in this thread ALM will be forced to on.

Well, personally i'm also still using Photoshop CS6. From your description it seems that you haven't done legacy materials yet. Specular, gloss maps, and the envirinment mask. That's the traditional material workflow it used to be in games before PBR came along. A transition from that legacy workflow to a PBR workflow isn't that hard actually.

But if you did diffuse map only, like in the old days of SL, before we had materials, it will be kind of a learning curve indeed.
However, the Metalness-roughness PBR workflow is actually somewhat easier than the legacy material workflow. Instead of creating a specular map, a gloss map and a environment mask, you will just have to create a roughness map. Which is just a grayscale map similar to a gloss map. Just that dark values means less roughness. Hence, black in the roughness map is the most shiny.

The metallic map is straight forward. If the surface is metal, pure white, if's it's non-metal, pure black, Easy is that. Those maps can be painted in plain old photoshop just as we did legacy materials in the days before Quixel Ddo, or Substance Painter came along.

Edited February 12, 2023 by arton Rotaru

[Janet Voxel]

47 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Will we be able to use reflective materials in clothing?

In theory, yes.

[arton Rotaru]

27 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

I don't necessarily agree with this because I've seen many PBR commercials come thru my YouTube plus watched a few videos on PBR and it looks like people are just putting a flat color on the base color area (albedo area) and it lacks depth.  The lighting and maps are going to have to make up for that lack of depth in the color.  With PS there was so much subtly and depth one could add into the texture itself.  However, this is commercials on YouTube not generated from SL.  I'll have to see what SL artists can do.  

That's the thing with PBR. The base color map has no lighting information. No AO shadowing, no specular highlights etc..
The heavy lifting is done by the in-game shader indeed.

Commercials and game content are completely different things, though. Don't expect SL PBR content to be uber awesome. We still have that 1024x1024 texture size limit. Our models are lowpoly still. The SL renderer is not HDR. The resolution of the cube maps used in reflections is pretty low, for performance reasons.

I don't know why these commercials aren't good looking to you (I don't watch such stuff), but I'd say it's still the artists who are to blame.

[EliseAnne85]

7 minutes ago, arton Rotaru said:

From your description it seams that you haven't done legacy materials yet. specular, gloss maps, and the Envirinment mask. That's the traditional material workflow it used to be in games before PBR came along. A transition from that legacy workflow to a PBR workflow isn't that hard actually.

I never used the specular and neither did a lot of the greats in SL because it never gave that many great effects.  Most of the items I have bought from the greats in SL do not use a specular either, only a normal.  One can make normal maps on Gimp or SmartNorMap 2.0 for free.  I'm talking furniture here I've bought from the greats because it's copy/mod and there are no speculars used as so many seem to think there are when these threads start.  Normal is a good invention but I wish SL had done something with brightness and darkness as just those two features could turn a 2D texture into looking more 3D in an instant.  

[arton Rotaru]

12 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

I never used the specular and neither did a lot of the greats in SL because it never gave that many great effects.  Most of the items I have bought from the greats in SL do not use a specular either, only a normal.  One can make normal maps on Gimp or SmartNorMap 2.0 for free.  I'm talking furniture here I've bought from the greats because it's copy/mod and there are no speculars used as so many seem to think there are when these threads start.  Normal is a good invention but I wish SL had done something with brightness and darkness as just those two features could turn a 2D texture into looking more 3D in an instant.  

Well, I have a completely different point of view on that matter. I immediately switched to the materials workflow when it was introduced in Second Life (2013). And personally I wouldn't buy anything that isn't specular mapped. A normal map will spring to live with a specular map much more. But that comes down to personal preferences. I'm not saying that one is better than the other.
Actually I'm still selling sculpted prims, without materials on my MP store as well. And I won't take them out of my store even when PBR is released.

Edited February 12, 2023 by arton Rotaru