A Positive Brainstorming / Suggestion Box Thread - Ideas for Improving Second Life Sociability, Usability and Retention

[EliseAnne85]

33 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

I suppose I'm a bit lost as to the separation of younger vs. older when it comes to experiences within SL. When I first joined in 2005, I WAS the younger generation - early/mid 20s, with two whole decades of gaming experience behind me already - both on PC and on consoles. In fact, I came here directly from a popular MMO (Everquest 2) for the sole purpose of avatar customization and roleplay. Gaming was already booming way back when a lot of us started here in the early days - with WoW being the king, but other online games were also pretty popular.

I was never on any video games.  I was an artist painter at the time as well as doing interior design so busy working.  I was just about to go on WOW just to check it out when I heard about SL, so I came with no expectations at all, other than basically we interact with one another as an avatar in a virtual world.  I think the experience was very different as we all got the same basic avatar we could customize and biggest customization was finding a skin so it was way less expensive.  Plus, their wasn't any outcast stigma like there is now because the Classic avatar is seen as unwanted by many rather than embraced by many.    

I had been on text chat rooms before coming to SL in the mid-2000's and from that texting chat room experience, wingdings had just been invented and that was all of my experience plus I knew how to do basic data entry stuff and type.  If I had any expectations it was that SL was a big chat room but with avatars whereas WOW was task oriented and sounded too structured for me.   I never actually went on WOW.  I don't think WOW was what I was seeking anyhow, which might be something classified as a game.  

Edited February 17, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[Orwar]

26 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Suggestion: The NUX avatar should include some Furry options!

   Depending on the success of NUX, I'm pretty sure people will be making modifications for it. As I'm not involved in any furry stuff I might not know all about it, but from what little I've seen a lot of people use 'regular' bodies and just apply skins and bits to change it up - plenty of paws, hooves, claws, and whatnots for Maitreya and Utilizator. My impression is that a large part of being a furry is the ability to express yourself; giving NUX some wolf paws or fox tails would only be of interest to furries who identify with those particular animals and who choose to use the included bits rather than their own, which I expect would be very few people in total.

   With NUX's developer kits being free and available for everyone (which is a thing, right?), without all the hoops of applying for them that many 'privately owned' bodies tend to have, it would be a very accessible body for making such creations for.

[Love Zhaoying]

7 minutes ago, Orwar said:

As I'm not involved in any furry stuff

You see a bit.. hirsute, that' s a start!

[benchthis]

4 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Did someone already observe? There are two very different "Destination Guide" interfaces. One is the newbie spoon-fed version from World / Destination Guide with like 14 categories, each with maybe 20-30 entries and no subcategories. The other is the firehose Destination Guide webpage you can open in the viewer from Search, discussed above. At least some of the spoon-fed destinations and categories are selected from the firehose ones.

This is the right way to do it. Maybe the firehose should be more readily discoverable from the spoon-fed interface, and it's impressive to see a broad range of places available to explore, but there's no point in overwhelming newbies with complexity to start.

This ^ That's all i'm suggesting. Now I have the bug to install a stable version of the viewer and explore the firehose destinations. 

[Caeruleiae]

3 hours ago, Zalificent said:

Surveys CAN work, when not conducted by incompetents.

Yes, this, exactly. 

You need someone, or group of people, that know what they're doing to accomplish it. I don't think ll has people in place in their marketing team, whatever it is, to do this. I don't think ll puts a lot of their employees in the right places, or even hires the right kind of people. I think they could get better though, they have the ability, it just takes time, training, educating, and a lot more research than it seems they've put in or want. 

My company hired a new person to work on one of our teams a few weeks ago. He's quite intelligent, knows a lot about what we do, the company,  our customer base. But he lacks  knowledge to properly get feedback from people-customers, employees or even shareholders, which is one of his main responsibilities. He shouldn't have been hired for that position, but some other one instead. I don't think he's going to last long at this rate, because he just doesn't understand the tasks he's been given and how to do them, just knows that he needs to.

I think ll suffers from this, especially in marketing, which we all know has been very poor for most sl's lifetime. I think they have people who know what needs to be done, but don't know how to get to the end goal. They know we need a solution, but don't know what the solution is, and even if they had it, they don't know how to get there. I'd say they rely on us to give them the information to help with those things, but they really don't listen that I can see. Which is probably why there is no real solution to most sl problems, yet. There could be, with right people in place-ones who listen. 

[Ayashe Ninetails]

1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Silly!! In case you were a little serious:

We had the "System Avatars", which looked OK.

We had Furries - but from what I remember, Luskwood was "State of the Art" for awhile.

Oooh! Suggestion: The NUX avatar should include some Furry options!

Edit: My keyboard got away from me and I submitted too soon before typing anything, LOL.

Anyhoo, 1000% agree!!!!!! NUX should absolutely have the potential for furriness. 

I know of one head maker who is currently designing an adorable complete fantasy avatar that will be free, AND come with a dev kit - so if there are any newbies out there just dying to be a cute little shroom, well...have I got news for you!

Edited February 17, 2023 by Ayashe Ninetails
Ooops!

[Caeruleiae]

1 hour ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

It's just a lot of work. NUX needs to hurry!

It does, honestly. The whole mesh body thing is a bigger hurdle for some people than others, but it's annoying all the same. The starter ones in 2020 when I started, you can't put most other clothes on them, it just didn't work right. So if you couldn't buy a mesh body like I couldn't you  use either one of the free ones you can find around, or starters. They aren't easy to find unless you know what to search. The free ones I did find were complicated, still made getting dressed hard and frustrated me. 

I know old system avatars were much worse, from reading, seeing videos and stuff. Mesh bodies are still a bigger starting hurdle than they need to be. People determined to stay will, people on the fence might not. Fence people are ones ll needs to worry about. It doesn't matter what subject they're on fence about either, they're the ones ll needs to grab and retain. It could be people on fence about what to do, where to go, how to look good, anything. Fence people are a problem ll doesn't address well. 

[Nalates Urriah]

22 hours ago, Caeruleiae said:

Where did I even mention the viewer at all? Did you actually read the post I commented on, or my actual post, at all? Because your comment has nothing to do with it.

You are taking things too personally. While I may quote you, the response is broader.

22 hours ago, Caeruleiae said:

Ask people that are new, it's not that difficult. Maybe if people who have been here forever stop speaking for people who are new, because they don't actually know the new user experience, it would be easier. 

You are considering far too small a sample of noobies to make conclusions, which is my point in general with those questions.

[Caeruleiae]

46 minutes ago, Orwar said:

With NUX's developer kits being free and available for everyone (which is a thing, right?), without all the hoops of applying for them that many 'privately owned' bodies tend to have, it would be a very accessible body for making such creations for.

I'm really looking forward to this, so I hope it comes to be. I would love to make content for the NUX ones because those are mostly newer people who may not have the ropes down yet. Easy to find, and afford content for those bodies I think will help, at least a bit.

I can't make content for other bodies, I'm not jumping through hoops to get dev kits, and I'm not paying an arm and a leg for them either-someone told me some creators charge, I don't know if there's truth to that or not. But if people can create for NUX, maybe they can create for other bodies too after getting experience. Good way to introduce the creative side to new people. 

[Caeruleiae]

5 minutes ago, Nalates Urriah said:

You are considering far too small a sample of noobies to make conclusions, which is my point in general with those questions.

My suggestion says to literally ask all the new people. That's the entire target audience, all new people, and not go outside of that scope. This is exactly how you get feedback from a targeted audience, in this case new people. You go to them, you bring them to you, you don't go so broad that you get outside of your scope. 

Getting feedback from people who have been here a decade on what new people want is like asking men what women want. They can only make guesses, they don't know, without directly asking or being told by a woman. So you go to your target audience, new people, and ask-how can we improve sl for you, how can we keep you around, what things are you looking for. If the target audience was the whole of sl instead, then ask them too. That's a broad audience, but it's doable, with the right people and methods in place. It's not the whole of the solution, going to new people directly and asking, but it's part of one.  It works when used right, ll doesn't have that part figured out yet, though-they don't use feedback they get, they don't even ask for or collect it right. 

I spent a while looking at different JIRAs again and it's nuts to me how many are there, some really old, ll responds or doesn't-so much of it's not been done yet. Some of it isn't that difficult to do, very easy to implement, and nothing.  I wouldn't have a job at all if I didn't listen, didn't pay attention, didn't collect the right data, didn't even look for the right data, didn't put that data to good use. I have little wiggle room when it comes to this stuff because it's part of my job and I can't understand why a company like ll with so much success in their wallet fails so greatly at it. I think I am too biased though,  as I said, I'd be fired if I caused my company to malfunction on this level. 

[Silent Mistwalker]

4 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Some interesting discussion regarding "younger generation" - and what they experience coming into Second Life with their Gaming experience.  Because if we're not part of that generation, "we ain't them".

I renew an old suggestion that proper "Surveys" of users by LL and professionals at doing "survey-type things" would help with a lot of questions.

However, noting that some have said in the past that "Surveys don't work". lol. (My response to this has been previously, then how are companies supposed to do business / know their target customers?" 

🙂

 

[Successful] Companies are supposed to have already done the research and already know their "target audience" before they ever open the doors to the public.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

15 minutes ago, Caeruleiae said:

It does, honestly. The whole mesh body thing is a bigger hurdle for some people than others, but it's annoying all the same. The starter ones in 2020 when I started, you can't put most other clothes on them, it just didn't work right. So if you couldn't buy a mesh body like I couldn't you  use either one of the free ones you can find around, or starters. They aren't easy to find unless you know what to search. The free ones I did find were complicated, still made getting dressed hard and frustrated me. 

I know old system avatars were much worse, from reading, seeing videos and stuff. Mesh bodies are still a bigger starting hurdle than they need to be. People determined to stay will, people on the fence might not. Fence people are ones ll needs to worry about. It doesn't matter what subject they're on fence about either, they're the ones ll needs to grab and retain. It could be people on fence about what to do, where to go, how to look good, anything. Fence people are a problem ll doesn't address well. 

Yup! Having something you can come into the world with that looks good without a lot of fiddling would be ideal. That gives people a chance to focus on activities and exploration instead of this immediate need to update themselves in order to fit in. Then, once they're already hooked, they can worry about branching out to the more complex customization options and take their time learning how to work with them.

 

15 minutes ago, Caeruleiae said:

I can't make content for other bodies, I'm not jumping through hoops to get dev kits, and I'm not paying an arm and a leg for them either-someone told me some creators charge, I don't know if there's truth to that or not. But if people can create for NUX, maybe they can create for other bodies too after getting experience. Good way to introduce the creative side to new people. 

I think the biggest hurdle with obtaining dev kits is the need to have a commercial shop up and running before applying. So yeah, NUX would give new designers an entry point in and a way to build a portfolio to show off to help them progress to something more advanced. That's my hope, anyway.

[Silent Mistwalker]

3 hours ago, EliseAnne85 said:

I don't know how to separate the quotes and respond by part, so I will do my best.

It's not hard using copy/paste and the bbcode [quote] <insert section here> [/quote ] (remove space before last ]) for each section  or instead of copy/paste use the Cut tool so it removes the text and you can still paste it in the new quote box you just made with the bbcode.

[EliseAnne85]

7 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

It's not hard using copy/paste and the bbcode

okay, test 1

8 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

for each section  or instead of copy/paste use the Cut

okay test 2, and I don't know what I did yet but it's sort of working.

Thanks!

[EliseAnne85]

31 minutes ago, Caeruleiae said:

My suggestion says to literally ask all the new people. That's the entire target audience, all new people, and not go outside of that scope.

You said in a prior post you asked many newbies and their answer was "what is there to do here?" was the answer you heard the most.  

Well, that needs to be addressed with beginner stuff to do, imo.

I don't remember my additional newbie beginnings for my alts.  I just sort of slept walked through those and wasn't paying attention.  

This problem of 'what to do here' could also be because SL doesn't advertise itself as one particular thing.  I haven't seen much SL advertisement at all so I don't even know what it advertises itself as.

Edited February 17, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[Love Zhaoying]

24 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Yup! Having something you can come into the world with that looks good without a lot of fiddling would be ideal.

I guess that beats coming into the world as a cloud, or as a naked, screaming blob (like in real life).

Edited February 17, 2023 by Love Zhaoying

[Love Zhaoying]

25 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

[Successful] Companies are supposed to have already done the research and already know their "target audience" before they ever open the doors to the public.

I agree. It may also be a good idea to ask the customers every few years, "how's it going"?

Things change.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I guess that beats coming into the world as a cloud, or as a naked, screaming blob (like in real life).

Duuuude. I just logged in and NONE of my attachments would rez. I was a misshapen Ruth for 5 whole minutes. HMPF!

That's what I get for talking ish on the forum. 😂

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Duuuude. I just logged in and NONE of my attachments would rez. I was a misshapen Ruth for 5 whole minutes. HMPF!

That's what I get for talking ish on the forum. 😂

@animatsrecently referenced a concept (from Navy Seal training), of "embrace the suck" (lean into it when things are bad, with the understanding you just gotta deal with it).  How's that going for you? I like the idea.  After all, if we didn't all "embrace" it, wouldn't we be long gone?

[Ayashe Ninetails]

Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

@animatsrecently referenced a concept (from Navy Seal training), of "embrace the suck" (lean into it when things are bad, with the understanding you just gotta deal with it).  How's that going for you? I like the idea.  After all, if we didn't all "embrace" it, wouldn't we be long gone?

You don't want my honest answer to that. I'll just say if that were a regular thing and not just a fluke, I wouldn't still be here.

I can handle a little jank, but not a steady diet of it. SL's been pretty good for me performance-wise, so I can't complain. But no, I don't subject myself to "the suck" for too long, lol.

[Silent Mistwalker]

20 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

okay, test 1

 

 

Normally it comes out looking more like this because the name of the poster doesn't show.

Quote

okay test 2, and I don't know what I did yet but it's sort of working.

And then like this again.

Quote

Thanks!

 

You can also use the " (quote) icon at the top of the text editor to create each quote box.

 

Enjoy!

[Silent Mistwalker]

12 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I agree. It may also be a good idea to ask the customers every few years, "how's it going"?

Things change.

That's what reviews and yep, even surveys are for.

"Tell us how we are doing!"

And if we're really screwing up that badly, we'll fix it!

[Love Zhaoying]

15 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

You don't want my honest answer to that.

Lying is good practice for if you ever get caught!

[EliseAnne85]

13 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

You don't want my honest answer to that. I'll just say if that were a regular thing and not just a fluke, I wouldn't still be here.

I can handle a little jank, but not a steady diet of it. SL's been pretty good for me performance-wise, so I can't complain. But no, I don't subject myself to "the suck" for too long, lol.

Yeah, I agree with this.  I've been "ruthed" several times myself, been in SL when the grid was down for days.  I think that's how I found the forums a long time ago, and been lurking on and off the forums for years.  I can't endure the suck for too long either because SL is in some ways supposed to be fun and enjoyable because it's a form of entertainment.  Albeit, I sometimes think Philip Rosedale designed it as a form of entertainment we have to figure out a large portion of it ourselves.  If he gave us everything all laid out, I think we'd bore of that too!

[Love Zhaoying]

8 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

That's what reviews and yep, even surveys are for.

"Tell us how we are doing!"

And if we're really screwing up that badly, we'll fix it!

Maybe 15 years ago or so, I started hearing about "net supporters" and "net detractors".

It's amazing how many apparent "net detractors" we have on the Forums, who are yet somehow heavily engaged Second Life users! It's like someone stepped on them and can't get them off their shoe. Or, the "I'm stuck on Band-Aids, 'cause Band-Aids stuck on me" effect.

I love making stuff up! It's like a Creative Writing course with no teachers or grades except evil English teachers who occasionally rear their..heads!