I do not like to be treated as a lower class shopper when I shop things for sale

[Katherine Heartsong]

22 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

In actuality, I could snip a picture of your painting and save it to my hard drive then upload it back to SL.   

I save all the beautiful pictures of you that you post in "How does my avatar look today" so fair enough

[Rowan Amore]

1 minute ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

I save all the beautiful pictures of you that you post in "How does my avatar look today" so fair enough

I'm not saying I'd do such a thing but it IS possible.   

[Persephone Emerald]

58 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

In actuality, I could snip a picture of your painting and save it to my hard drive then upload it back to SL.   

A person can also line up their camera very carefully, take a picture, and not even upload it to their computer. The quality of the picture is going to be less, but for some purposes this is not a problem. Example, when you want a picture of an outfit or skin in the folder for it, but the creator only put a picture on the box, rather than including one inside the box.

[Rowan Amore]

5 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

A person can also line up their camera very carefully, take a picture, and not even upload it to their computer. The quality of the picture is going to be less, but for some purposes this is not a problem. Example, when you want a picture of an outfit or skin in the folder for it, but the creator only put a picture on the box, rather than including one inside the box.

I've done this especially with makeup and hairbases.  They may be numbered but no visual to tell me what those numbers mean.  And no mod so I can't rename them black, brown, grey, etc.

[Persephone Emerald]

Post moved to the What do you buy and have to edit? thread.

Edited May 13, 2022 by Persephone Emerald
moved post to a more fitting thread

[Luna Bliss]

4 hours ago, Blush Bravin said:

Was the purpose realized? Possibly and possibly not. For the OP it seems that the intended purpose was not achieved, but that's not to say there aren't others who really like the item as is and appreciate the low price.

Yeah you can't please everyone!  I've gotten excellent feedback from customers and it ended up with me making a much-desired product where I earned tons of money.  But some other advice, well, I'm almost certain it was best to ignore.

[Codex Alpha]

10 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Would be nice in one way if one could change or at least lower the texture resolution on some things to make for a generally faster loading of some products.

This could be handled by dealing with the amount of materials, textures and faces used to also count in the LI. I don't understand why vertice counts are more punished than the fact that I see many times sometimes up to 24 or more textures (on linked items) all at 1024px size and people wonder why SL lags so much. People need to open up the texture consoles and other consoles and see what happens when they enter a world - GBs of textures that I will never see but will attempt to load anyway.and so often just to see a 1024 px picture on a tiny product box.

LL should slack on the LI impact stuff, allow more Li, but then 'encourage' people to become a bit more efficient on their use of textures - and discourage those 'gaming' the system or making their products look super fantastic (because every product has tons of max 1024px images).

Sansar did not track LI, or textures or anything, so users could upload what they wanted. However, there was a built in punishment that those trying to visit their world would simply be waiting for 10 minutes to try to get in , from trying to pre-download all the huge assets and textures - and people would not connect or visit as a result. So it had a default method to 'encourage' more effecient use of things.. We desperately need this in SL, because again the biggest complaint I have and others that would like to regular SL is that it is very laggy (and if they go around a lot shopping it gobbles up a ton of GB monthly)

[Persephone Emerald]

.

Edited May 14, 2022 by Persephone Emerald
Changed my mind about posting

[Codex Alpha]

On 5/12/2022 at 9:16 AM, Persephone Emerald said:

If this creator is so worried about how customers might use his product and destroy his artistic vision, I have a script he can put in his items to fix that problem. Even after someone else owns the product and has rezzed it on their own property, all he has to do is go over there and say "Be Gone!", and the rezzed item will disappear completely. The customer could still rez a new copy, but if he's that worried he could make his products No Copy as well as No Mod.

( I'm just kidding of course about giving him this script, but I'm not kidding about having it. )

As seen many times on this forum, some have even said they do this on land that has no scripting allowed (on their own land), that way they can bypass any of the creator's wishes (or creator's anti-unlinking measures good or bad) - so that they can have access to the unlinked items.

If someone is dead set on using a product for an end use not intended by a creator (like a linked machine/gadget/assembly) they're going to find a way anyway. So we might as well all be transparent as to how it all works in Second Life, for creator and customer alike so that we can return to some fair and ethical means of trade - and people can stop feeling like they can 'demand' things just because they feel entitled.

I've also mentioned in the past, that this sort of talk on the forums (not related to  you personally) is almost anti-competitive behaviour here - to be loudly saying "Don't buy from creators that don't have copy and/or mod enabled on their products" as it is certainly not a positive position to have, and skirts the rules while making the point that those creators are somehow selfish, snobby or something other than positive.

The OP could have easily started a discussion on the issue at hand instead of framing the whole experience as if she was somehow scammed, or treated less as a customer, or the seller was somehow dishonest. This is not a good start to a positive discussion.

On 5/12/2022 at 11:48 AM, Emma Krokus said:

I am trying to grasp what is the issue here.

Marianne bought an item on SALE implying it had been on offer at full price before - and from the information provided, other items at nearby vendors from this shop were modifiable.

If that is the case, then yes, she should ascertained before buying that this item too was modifiable.

I would find it annoying if so-called SALE items were sold only as non-modifiable. That no longer makes it a SALE item but a different item - because of different permissions - sold at a lower price.

I find this a bit underhand unless it was specifically highlighted - as it would appear that this was done intentionally by the merchant.

But maybe I am misunderstanding the situation....

 

I would assume unless advertised that products sold inworld may not be the same as listed in the Marketplace.

This allows creators to sell items inworld at discounts, or different versions of products as they see fit - and should have the freedom to do - short of being outright fraud or deception.

If it is in fact an item related to a Marketplace item, then a simple link to purchase it from the MP instead would be appropriate.

If it is a product that is on 'sale', or is a version inworld not linked to a MP item - then a customer should review what is available with the package.

I observe that some merchants DO have the same item inworld, and at a discount - which is good incentive for potential customers to actually go inworld and explore worlds and stores.

I guess as a creator I have a bias to afford other creators some leeway in what they would like to do - short of fraud again of course - and I don't get all upset as some might do and post about it. I seem to have no problem understanding what I'm getting and what the permissions are - and I can take it or leave it.

On 5/12/2022 at 3:41 PM, colleen Criss said:

Everything needs to be copy/mod/no transfer.

If there was a standard that was met so that discussion/argument about it ended, then creators could simply accept that this is the case and make their designs in consideration of this. Yes, I know some are right now, but at least it would get rid of that opinion that 'Creators who don't offer copy and/or mod on their creations are [insert negative portrayal here]" might end.

Anything that can remove the US vs them type of mentality, or some sort of war between customer and seller would always be good.

Perhaps setting to copy/mod by default, BUT denying certain things that are able to be done right now: such as actually changing the name of the product. One of the biggest things about SL that wasn't available in Sansar (for example) is that anyone can view the name of the product,and WHO made it - a very important feature to be maintained - and one of the copy/mod bad things is a customer can call your product "my product" because of it.

That being said, there ARE still products that need to be no copy regardless. I bought a 'scripting book' long ago that was not copy - and though it was a pain in the butt to ensure I took it back into my inventory, I understood WHY it was so.. If it was COPY, then I could rez the product multiple times for all my friends or for whoever - which would mean they wouldn't need to buy it themselves.

I DID lose the book eventually on a object return, but I simply got it redelivered so no big deal. With redelivery there is little risk or loss to the customer.

On 5/13/2022 at 5:17 AM, Emma Krokus said:

From random google, a definition of sale:

 

"a period during which a shop or dealer sells goods at reduced prices."

 

a -no mod- version of a mod item is NOT the mod item on "sale"

 

it is a different item - Marianne was not able to use the item as she would have been able to with the mod version

 

and so, the item supposedly on sale, is not actually a SALE item at all but to Marianne, an inferior item

To be fair, this happens in real life, and seems to be something that customers may or may not realize, and they should educate themselves on the product, what is available, permissions, etc and purchase likewise - like an adult.

Plenty of times there is a discrepancy between a ModelA computer from Walmart, to Best Buy, to Costco. Has the same name but sometimes different features. Walmart might have the ModelA for $599, but the 'edition' is ModelA-23B, while Model A at Costco is the ModelA-23C.

Some shoppers found this out when buying a Metallica Album that was supposed to have included contents in the CD Case, and were celebrating that they found it at Walmart for less - then realizing that the Walmart Edition did not include the same objects. Was this unethical? Was it lying? Was it misrepresentation? Nope. Was it disappointing? Yes.

But hey, the golden rule is you get what you pay for. People just need to inspect the item, understand what they're getting for the price, compare, etc - and stop making posts like SL is some negative experience that they are constantly being preyed upon, and take responsibility for their decisions.  (Prudence)

20 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

In actuality, I could snip a picture of your painting and save it to my hard drive then upload it back to SL.   

Sure, if someone wants to steal, they want to steal. The only problem is that with my products, they won't be able to capture the image as intended, will be missing the included 3D effects or model itself, etc so it won't be the same.

And the effect is that artists won't bother uploading or selling their art, and everyone loses. Gees god forbid someone had to pay 25 cents for a piece of original art they liked in SL (Probably includes a frame too which can add value by proxy)

Edited May 14, 2022 by Codex Alpha

[Paul Hexem]

On 5/14/2022 at 10:34 AM, Codex Alpha said:

I've also mentioned in the past, that this sort of talk on the forums (not related to  you personally) is almost anti-competitive behaviour here - to be loudly saying "Don't buy from creators that don't have copy and/or mod enabled on their products" as it is certainly not a positive position to have, and skirts the rules while making the point that those creators are somehow selfish, snobby or something other than positive.

I disagree.

All the time we see "Creators can set whatever permissions they want. Don't buy the stuff if you don't like it." which is true.

Posts like these are effectively repeating that; Getting people informed so they can choose not to buy it.

I'd tell those creators that if they're that worried about "no mod, no purchase" complaints, then they should change their permissions.

I sell a couple no mod items. Threads like these don't bother me because I'm comfortable with the reason those objects are no mod, and I'm comfortable with the resulting sales numbers.

If I wasn't, I'd change the permissions, not accuse people's opinions of being anti-competitive.

[Persephone Emerald]

If a creator is worried about customers ruining their artistic vision by modifying a product the customer bought, the creator should open an art gallery instead of a store. 

Btw, I do occasionally buy No Copy art in SL. Even though I can easily create a picture by paying $L 10 to upload any image I want off the internet, an artist's unique vision and talent is still valuable for me to have represented in SL.

Edited May 15, 2022 by Persephone Emerald

[Ayashe Ninetails]

13 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

If a creator is worried about customers ruining their artistic vision by modifying a product the customer bought, the creator should open an art gallery instead of a store. 

Btw, I do occasionally buy No Copy art in SL. Even though I can easily create a picture by paying $L 10 to upload any image I want off the internet, an artist's unique vision and talent is still valuable for me to have represented in SL.

I shop for art on occasion - oddly, some of the original paintings I have are Mod/Copy. They allow for resizing, which I really, really appreciate as I'm always swapping homes/using them to decorate other homes with and some of the pieces in original size are quite huge.

Some are definitely No Mod/No Copy, though. Depends on the artist and gallery. Honestly, I'll buy art with any perms if I'm sure I can fit it on a wall somewhere without needing to resize (and if I'm okay with losing the piece if I'm using it in someone else's build).

[Codex Alpha]

3 hours ago, Persephone Emerald said:

If a creator is worried about customers ruining their artistic vision by modifying a product the customer bought, the creator should open an art gallery instead of a store.

Classy.

[Luna Bliss]

8 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

3 hours ago, Persephone Emerald said:

If a creator is worried about customers ruining their artistic vision by modifying a product the customer bought, the creator should open an art gallery instead of a store.

Classy.

Your vision does not matter. You are but a cog in the machine, a mere element of the factory, cranking out your product for the consumer  and the consumer alone. Now get busy.

[Codex Alpha]

7 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Your vision does not matter. You are but a cog in the machine, a mere element of the factory, cranking out your product for the consumer  and the consumer alone. Now get busy.

Nah, sounds terribly boring.

[StarlanderGoods]

3 hours ago, Persephone Emerald said:

If a creator is worried about customers ruining their artistic vision by modifying a product the customer bought, the creator should open an art gallery instead of a store. 

I understand people who dont like to buy No Mod stuff, and I understand some cases where a creator might want to sell No Mod stuff, sometimes it´s not something as pedantic as "ruining their artistic vision".

For example, I bake all textures, and without the AO and UV maps its pretty hard to replace a texture from a mesh item.  And if you separate an item, because the textures are baked, you will have pure black spots where two parts of the item met.  They are simply not made for the user to edit them.

I run a bit of an experiment, and decided to make some mesh item, with modding in mind, and it is a LOT of extra work, first of all, I can no longer divide the mesh in arbitrary pieces that are comfortable for me, I have to separate the mesh in pieces that will make sense to the used, like removing sleeves or details.   Then I have to fix the edges of the mesh, because mesh is transparent on one side, if you cut the mesh without having some fold in the border it just looks bad, and making the whole thing double layered adds a lot of unnecesary polygons.  Also, I have to make easy to read UV and AO maps, and distribute them with the item, wich also means there is no incentive for me to make multiple colours and textures for it.

So if I want to make a product that is not just Mod, but that supports being modified, it IS a lot more work than making an object with a predetermined number of uses, like NoMod with a textures HUD.  (Im talking about rigged mesh clothing, if the object in question is made with prims, then modding is a lot easier to support)

[Luna Bliss]

3 hours ago, Persephone Emerald said:

If a creator is worried about customers ruining their artistic vision by modifying a product the customer bought, the creator should open an art gallery instead of a store. 

Personally, I know that people need to be able to integrate my landscaping products into their own land....resize, sometimes retexture...and so almost all my stuff is mod. I've enjoyed what they came up with many times.

But there's this one item I made, where I learned so much about color and form, and managed to integrate the colors so well that I was amazed at the beauty, as well as some others who saw it. I never want to see that ruined.  It was one of only about 7 things of mine that I feel okay about calling  'art'.   It will never be modifiable, and anybody who wants to have the right to never have their creation change should keep that right.  If you don't like it, well don't buy it!