History Repeating Itself ?

[Blush Bravin]

7 minutes ago, Callum Meriman said:

More then just that, they are advocating the ruling commitee siezing the assets of the aristocracy (Land Flipper) and distrubuting those at a nominal L$1 cost to the prolitariat.

It's not just socialist, the Commrade is a downright Marx following communist.

I'm not suggesting that at all. I'm just saying if all the land was good land then the flippers wouldn't have the resources to control it all or be able to keep prices artificially high. 

[Theresa Tennyson]

3 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

I'm not suggesting that at all. I'm just saying if all the land was good land then the flippers wouldn't have the resources to control it all or be able to keep prices artificially high. 

I think the comment was aimed at our Comrade Libertarian.

[Blush Bravin]

9 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

I think the comment was aimed at our Comrade Libertarian.

Ah, okay.

[Lindal Kidd]

5 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

Blush didn't suggest the need to do anything like that. You've misunderstood her. What she suggested was making mainland more attractive with such things as woodlands and water. She never mentioned oceans. When reading her post about it, I imagined things like lakes, and I imagined that lakeside properties would be nice and desirable. Oceans are not the only forms of water. In fact they're the least attractive forms of water. For sailing, huge lakes (what we call oceans in SL) are needed of course, but Blush wasn't talking about sailing. She was talking about making the mainland more attractive.

Ocean, lakes, forest, it doesn't matter.  Any of these things would require taking land away from someone.  Or, creating more land.  In case you haven't noticed, there isn't all that much Abandoned land on the Mainland any more.  When there is, it generally does not stay Abandoned all that long.  One of two things happens; either LL auctions it, or they designate it as Maintenance, public land.  (Hey!  Maybe they are ALREADY doing what you suggest there.)

[Phil Deakins]

It wouldn't require taking land from anyone. I don't think that Blush had that in mind. The way I saw it was making what's available much more attractive.

You only talked about oceans though, and that's not what I understood from Blush's post.

[Blush Bravin]

26 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

Ocean, lakes, forest, it doesn't matter.  Any of these things would require taking land away from someone.  Or, creating more land.  In case you haven't noticed, there isn't all that much Abandoned land on the Mainland any more.  When there is, it generally does not stay Abandoned all that long.  One of two things happens; either LL auctions it, or they designate it as Maintenance, public land.  (Hey!  Maybe they are ALREADY doing what you suggest there.)

I don't know what mainland you've been flying around lately but there are lots and lots of areas that could easily be renovated in the mainland without displacing anyone. I NEVER suggested moving anyone from their land. I've ALWAYS said abandoned land.

Here is a case in point. This huge parcel is currently held by Guy Linden and a smaller parcel bordering the road that is abandoned. These two parcels could easily be partitioned off with the parcels next to the road put up for auction and the area behind turned into a nice green space or a small lake. That would be very simple to do.  There are countless situations like this all across the interior areas of mainland.

 

 

 

 

[Lindal Kidd]

Like I said...the land's been designated "Maintenance".

So now all we need is the Mole Beautification crew.

[Blush Bravin]

6 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

Like I said...the land's been designated "Maintenance".

So now all we need is the Mole Beautification crew.

All abandoned land goes into the Maintenance Group. It's interesting that the land behind is owned directly by Guy. It makes me think something is in the works or possibly that land was confiscated (I'm speculating).

[Phorumities]

4 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

You have just said that the upfront cost of a parcel would be L$1, and as tier is based on area and not on any other factor such as desirability that all land would essentially be treated the same. You have also repeatedly said that your proposal is meant to discourage a class of participants in the existing market - land flippers.  For now, I'm not arguing whether the idea is good or not, simply that if a resource, especially a limited one, is given an arbitrary fixed cost it's not a free market situation. In fact, it's quite socialist.

The land has whatever value a reseller wishes to put on it and a buyer wishes to pay for it. I'm not saying it has to always be $1 L. You are looking at it from the buyers (resident) point of view. I'm looking at it from the sellers (Linden Lab) point of view. LL has tons of land that are not making it any money in tier. Its seems the easiest way to get people on the land and paying tier is to give it away.

If you manage to score a waterfront parcel from LL for $1 L, you are completely free to try and sell it for $50,000 but in the meantime LL is collecting tier, and if you wish to live on it or resell it is no ones business.

When you get your $1 L parcel, since it is a limited resource, you are free to resell it for whatever price you wish. But that is of no concern to LL because it already got what it wants out of the land. TIER 

Land flippers can continue doing what they do. Since desirable land is limited, they will still be in business.

 

[Phorumities]

4 hours ago, Callum Meriman said:

More then just that, they are advocating the ruling commitee siezing the assets of the aristocracy (Land Flipper) and distrubuting those at a nominal L$1 cost to the prolitariat.

It's not just socialist, the Commrade is a downright Marx following communist.

Please quote the post where anyone said we should confiscate land from anyone and set it to sale  for  $1 L. All I've ever said was that to get as much abandoned land generating tier as possible, all abandoned land should be subdivided into parcels of varying sizes and set for sale at $1 L per parcel. Flippers will grab some, but people wanting a piece of mainland to live on without paying crazy prices will also grab some.

Every parcel sold for $1 L immediately generates a month's tier for that parcel.

Live on it, sell it for a profit, or abandon it and pick up another  $1 L parcel, it's all the esame to Linden Labs.

And it's all the same to me.

[Blush Bravin]

15 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

The land has whatever value a reseller wishes to put on it and a buyer wishes to pay for it. I'm not saying it has to always be $1 L. You are looking at it from the buyers (resident) point of view. I'm looking at it from the sellers (Linden Lab) point of view. LL has tons of land that are not making it any money in tier. Its seems the easiest way to get people on the land and paying tier is to give it away.

If you manage to score a waterfront parcel from LL for $1 L, you are completely free to try and sell it for $50,000 but in the meantime LL is collecting tier, and if you wish to live on it or resell it is no ones business.

When you get your $1 L parcel, since it is a limited resource, you are free to resell it for whatever price you wish. But that is of no concern to LL because it already got what it wants out of the land. TIER 

Land flippers can continue doing what they do. Since desirable land is limited, they will still be in business.

 

Do you have any idea just how much money LL makes from auctions? Seems to me they'd like to continue making money that way. The best way for them to do that is make all of mainland attractive enough that people will spend the money. They really don't make much money from tier. I don't pay any tier. I pay for two premium accounts and that covers all my tier. Before someone jumps on me ... I'm not saying others don't spend money on tier ... but I think you are making it sound like it's a huge money maker for LL .. I don't think it is.

Edited September 1, 2018 by Blush Bravin

[Phorumities]

5 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

Do you have any idea just how much money LL makes from auctions? Seems to me they'd like to continue making money that way. The best way for them to do that is make all of mainland attractive enough that people will spend the money. They really don't make much money from tier. I don't pay any tier. I pay for two premium accounts and that covers all my tier. Before someone jumps on me ... I'm not saying others don't spend money on tier ... but I think you are making it sound like it's a huge money maker for LL .. I don't think it is.

So an empty sim generating no tier is desirable to a full sim generating hundreds of dollars every month in tier?

The proceeds from auctions are pennies compared to tier

Edited September 1, 2018 by Phorumities
changed a word

[Blush Bravin]

Also, think of the potential for griefing. Griefers won't have to look for a parcel where they can rez to grief an entire region. All they have to do is plop down 1L and cause havoc on the whole region. No, I'm not in favor of 1L parcels.

Edited September 1, 2018 by Blush Bravin

[Blush Bravin]

3 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

So an empty parcel generating no tier is desirable to a full parcel generating hundreds of dollars every month in tier.

 

No, it's not. But what is desirable is parcels being auctioned off in a nice location with a buffer zone between you and your neighbors. Linden Lab gets money from both auctions and tier.

[Phorumities]

2 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

Also, think of the potential for griefing. Griefers won't have to look for a parcel where they can rez to grief an entire region. All they have to do is plop down 1L and cause havoc on the whole region. No, I'm not in favor of 1L parcels.

There rezz zones on LL roads, those will do quite nicely for griefing.

 

[Blush Bravin]

1 minute ago, Phorumities said:

There rezz zones on LL roads, those will do quite nicely for griefing.

 

Rezz zones have restrictions, and at least a buyer knows where they are located and can carefully choose to not be near one.

[Phorumities]

3 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

No, it's not. But what is desirable is parcels being auctioned off in a nice location with a buffer zone between you and your neighbors. Linden Lab gets money from both auctions and tier.

Apparently  people in here think undesirable parcels won't be bought even for  $1 L, so you'll still have your green belt behind your LL road front parcel

The only buffer between you and your neighbors along a road should be the buffer zone you yourself leave.

[Blush Bravin]

Just now, Phorumities said:

Apparently  people in here think undesirable parcels won't be bought even for  $1 L, so you'll still have your green belt behind your LL road front parcel

The only buffer between you and your neighbors along a road should be the buffer zone you yourself leave.

My hope is that those green zones I've suggested would be the buffer I refer to. But this is all hypothetical musing. I do hope this thread gets the attention of the Lindens who maintain the mainland lands, but I don't expect much to come of this discussion though I've enjoyed the conversation.

[Phorumities]

4 hours ago, Blush Bravin said:

 

I don't remember how long ago but not so far in the distant past Linden Lab set into motion a policy of all abandoned being automatically set at 1L per sqm. That policy was an outstanding flop. Flippers took advantage of it to take even more control of the somewhat desirable land while the bulk of those inland "ugly" areas remained empty. There was no rush to buy interior mainland by average Jane and Joe Resident. It didn't help mainland at all.

 

Even $1 L per sq m is too high for many people, both for the initial outlay and being stuck in that location if the sim ends up blighted.

Estates have  $1 L parcels, LL should do the same with mainland.

I don't see anything to justify why they shouldn't, except inertia on the people that run LL

[Phorumities]

4 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

My hope is that those green zones I've suggested would be the buffer I refer to. But this is all hypothetical musing. I do hope this thread gets the attention of the Lindens who maintain the mainland lands, but I don't expect much to come of this discussion though I've enjoyed the conversation.

I've also  suggesting building new roads, and selling 4096's along the roads. Eight  4096's generates the equivalent tier to a full mainland sim. The areas behind those parcels can also be listed for sale, so people can tier up, OR, as you suggest left as green belts

And  I agree, this is all just talk and not unpleasant. I certainly have no power to implement my plan, but certain people in the forums take great offence at my mere suggestion of doing something different.

Edited September 1, 2018 by Phorumities
added stuff

[Garnet Psaltery]

4 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

Even $1 L per sq m is too high for many people, both for the initial outlay and being stuck in that location if the sim ends up blighted.

Estates have  $1 L parcels, LL should do the same with mainland.

I don't see anything to justify why they shouldn't, except inertia on the people that run LL

Or absolute dread that yet one more thing could go wrong ... like the auction system

[Phorumities]

1 minute ago, Garnet Psaltery said:

Or absolute dread that yet one more thing could go wrong ... like the auction system

That's why $1 L per parcel is perfect. You have invested nothing so you have nothing to lose if you just walk away.

If  I ever do move, I'll get something for my land since it is roadfront, then I'd move to the middle of an empty sim on a hilltop.

[Sandy Schnook]

in theory, I like the idea of LL selling land parcels super cheap and people moving in, instead of bots and wannabee land barons buying it to sell at stupid high prices.  Except that is what got us to this point in the first place.  I've been around long enough to remember when LL gave you a 512 parcel on mainland with premium, you could basically just claim it, and it was yours.  People made alts to get even more, then turned right around, placed it for sale, bots and barons snapped it up, and we arrived at where we are at now.  I'm not sure what the solution would be, but super low or free land for all has been tried already

[Phorumities]

5 minutes ago, Sandy Schnook said:

in theory, I like the idea of LL selling land parcels super cheap and people moving in, instead of bots and wannabee land barons buying it to sell at stupid high prices.  Except that is what got us to this point in the first place.  I've been around long enough to remember when LL gave you a 512 parcel on mainland with premium, you could basically just claim it, and it was yours.  People made alts to get even more, then turned right around, placed it for sale, bots and barons snapped it up, and we arrived at where we are at now.  I'm not sure what the solution would be, but super low or free land for all has been tried already

So instead we should try super high priced land? We see how that works.

How could you just claim a 512 on mainland? Are you saying 512's were sitting there free for anyone to take?

Maybe I should revise my plan, set all the parcels for sale for free to any premium member. Click buy and owe a months tier

Edited September 1, 2018 by Phorumities
added a line

[Sandy Schnook]

Yup, they had mainland plots newbies could claim once they went premium, no Linden homes.  Mine was in Epilais, my best friend claimed the parcel adjoining mine.

Edited to add:  They would open entire regions just meant for newbies to claim, once mostly full they'd open more.  The regions steadily grew.  The problem was, as I said, many people made alts to claim land.  Got premium for a month, got their land, sold it, dropped the alts.

Edited September 1, 2018 by Sandy Schnook
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