Estate Owners give away parcels, It's time for LL to do the same

[Phorumities]

2 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Not terribly germane to the subject, but I'm not sure there's much more to be said about it, so...

Here's a current Linden auction parcel that opened for less than L$0.25/m². Whatever that means.

Interesting, i thought all auctions started at $0.5 L per sq m

[ellestones]

4 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Not terribly germane to the subject, but I'm not sure there's much more to be said about it, so...

Here's a current Linden auction parcel that opened for less than L$0.25/m². Whatever that means.

i agree with the concept that a mainland parcel can/could have some tradeable value in itself.  Will be interesting to see how the intended resident-to-resident auction system works out for residents. I hope it goes well   

[ellestones]

@Phorumites - 1L per parcel regardless of its size is a quite radical change, and leads to more radical change

is implicit to this change that there will always be sufficient supply of available mainland parcels to residents. Mainland is a benefit of Premium membership. Implicit in this is that mainland residents have parcel tenure

a connundrum for LL as the mainland estate owner is that they don't have the supply flexibility that a private estate owner has. A private estate owner manages supply by adding and removing regions from the grid. And sometimes forced repatriation of tenants. Example: An estate with 4 parcels per region, only 1 tenant on each. 3 of the tenants have to move

should LL also do this then its quite a radical change. Should they not remove mainland regions in the same way private estates do then, while there is a glut of available mainland (like as at present) then everyone is happy. LL gets tiers, residents have ample choices to move to when they abandon. Lots of choices for new premium members also

when the supply of available parcels is exhausted then LL add more mainland regions. Which is also great until the next downturn. Residents abandon and don't take up new positions. When the next downturn is severe (as the current one has been) then LL is stuck with even more masses of empty mainland regions as they have now

basically what I am pointing out is that this a supply management problem and not an entry pricing problem

[ellestones]

another parcel management supply tool is differential tiers/rates/rents. Private estates do use this tool. The rent for water edge parcels is typically higher than the rent for interior parcels on the large estates

should LL do this also on mainland ? if so then this would be a further radical change

[Phorumities]

13 hours ago, ellestones said:

@Phorumites - 1L per parcel regardless of its size is a quite radical change, and leads to more radical change

is implicit to this change that there will always be sufficient supply of available mainland parcels to residents. Mainland is a benefit of Premium membership. Implicit in this is that mainland residents have parcel tenure

a connundrum for LL as the mainland estate owner is that they don't have the supply flexibility that a private estate owner has. A private estate owner manages supply by adding and removing regions from the grid. And sometimes forced repatriation of tenants. Example: An estate with 4 parcels per region, only 1 tenant on each. 3 of the tenants have to move

should LL also do this then its quite a radical change. Should they not remove mainland regions in the same way private estates do then, while there is a glut of available mainland (like as at present) then everyone is happy. LL gets tiers, residents have ample choices to move to when they abandon. Lots of choices for new premium members also

when the supply of available parcels is exhausted then LL add more mainland regions. Which is also great until the next downturn. Residents abandon and don't take up new positions. When the next downturn is severe (as the current one has been) then LL is stuck with even more masses of empty mainland regions as they have now

basically what I am pointing out is that this a supply management problem and not an entry pricing problem

fair enough. i know its a radical idea and i'm sure someone at LL gave it a passing thought at some point in time, but i suppose they can see the big picture better than I can.

[ellestones]

what you @Phorumites raised I think was worth exploring as a topic. Am always interested in what could be, what might be, if so how could it be done, if not then why not and what might the alternatives be if any

particularly when something isn't working as well as hoped. Mainland occupancy in this case. LL have decided to try a more comprehensive auction system at this time. It may help, it may not. Should it not then your idea of LL selling mainland parcels for 1L per may eventuate

an alternative future could also be:

a LL declaration that the existing no-covenant mainland will not be extended. What there is, is all there is and it will stay that way (after a little tidy up on some edges of existing continents - Sharp continent for example).  A declaration that from hereon the only new LL-owned mainland continents introduced to the grid will be covenanted continents (Linden Homes - Horizons model) targeted solely at growing the premium membership

when the existing no-covenanted mainland is not extended (and never will be) then like realworld land it becomes a limited resource. Limited resources can have value in and of themselves

[Tari Landar]

On 7/25/2018 at 11:41 AM, Alyona Su said:

You have to be in arrears for 60 days before your account is locked. You only need to be late for a week or less on most estates before you're evicted. Seriously, you've made your case and I've made mine. And I do thank you for being civil about it, it's a good debate.

Is this a newer policy?  I have seen people locked out under 60 days out as recently as the last couple years, so I'm curious when this changed from the original 30 days it used to be. 

 

[Alyona Su]

10 hours ago, Tari Landar said:

Is this a newer policy?  I have seen people locked out under 60 days out as recently as the last couple years, so I'm curious when this changed from the original 30 days it used to be. 

 

It's not. It was a clarification from a Linden in these forums (like within a month ago or so) - and the clarification was if you went into arrears (didn't pay owed money to LL) - they didn;t specify for what specifically, but certainly land-use fees are there because it was in a thread about land-use fees and the different tiers of it.

Edited August 2, 2018 by Alyona Su

[Prokofy Neva]

On 7/25/2018 at 6:41 AM, Phorumities said:

I've never seen a land flipper buy a parcel on an estate and try to sell it at a higher price.

Why is that?

Its because the land itself is worthless. Estate parcels sell for 1 L, first weeks tier due immediately. No one would pay a land flipper even 2 L for the parcel, because its over priced. And what if it was desirable? I don't think the estate owned would care, it's all about the rent.

If LL wants to return to full occupancy of main land, it desperately needs to reconsider its way of distributing mainland.

Dividing the whole of abandoned mainland into parcels of various sizes, and setting it for sale at $1 L per parcel is the answer.

LL doesn't care about or need the pennies it makes on direct sales of 1 L per sq m. LL wants tier, and a mainland entirely owned by land flippers is just the same as mainland owned and lived on by individuals.

But but but.... what if land flippers buy up every single parcel? So what? LL should only be concerned about maximizing its tier not who buys the land.

Are there enough land flippers out there to buy up all the vacant land on mainland? I sincerely doubt it. There will be a rush at first, flippers buying up everything in sight, but even they will eventually realize its no longer business as usual.

One of the biggest complaints I hear about mainland is that people are afraid to buy a parcel for thousands on Lindens, only to have the sim blighted the next week, and so they are forced to try and sell their land, or abandon it and buying another parcel, again for thousands on L's.

If you buy a parcel for 1 L, you won't think twice about abandoning it and buying  another for 1 L

The land itself has no value to LL.  The only value is in the tier it generates. If LL wants to maximize its mainland tier, it needs to put as much land out there, as quickly as possible, give it away, so that whoever buys, either to flip, or to live on,  is paying tier on it.

Abandoned land generates no income for LL. Abandoned land sold for 1 L per parcel generates tier from the moment someone clicks the buy button. 

It seems like an obvious solution to me

 

 

I thought you were opposed to socialism.

[Phorumities]

2 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I thought you were opposed to socialism.

I am opposed to socialism.  But there is no government in Second Life. There is a private commercial entity with a TOS. I was offering a suggestion for a way for the company to increase its revenues. Nothing more.

 

Edited August 9, 2018 by Phorumities
added words

[Qie Niangao]

On 25/07/2018 at 6:41 AM, Phorumities said:

There will be a rush at first, flippers buying up everything in sight, but even they will eventually realize its no longer business as usual.

Except, I think, it would be practically indistinguishable from business as usual.

Or it would be, anyway, unless you're proposing to limit to L$1/parcel all future Mainland sales, public or private.  I don't think you are, but that would be a massive "taking" of private (virtual) property, and because that virtual property has some RL value, however fleeting, it would be a pretty collectivist step. And that would be a real change from business as usual.

But again, I don't think that's what you're proposing. Rather, this sounds like only a very slightly downmarket variant of the L$1/m² price at which all abandoned land used to be offered. They stopped doing that because it turned essentially the whole map yellow, but it's only symbolically different from the current practice of selling for L$1/m² anybody any abandoned land they want.

The US$4 difference between L$1024 and L$1 for the standard Premium bonus Mainland parcel is just too small to matter to anybody, and that will be even more true when you can liquidate your US$4 investment for maybe US$3 at auction in a matter of days (or hours?) -- much like the service landbots used to perform back when any old Mainland was worth buying. That's why I mentioned the user-to-user auctions in an earlier post: I think that and the proposal both aim to address much the same issue, liquidity at the very bottom of the market.

Edited August 9, 2018 by Qie Niangao

[Phorumities]

53 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Except, I think, it would be practically indistinguishable from business as usual.

Or it would be, anyway, unless you're proposing to limit to L$1/parcel all future Mainland sales, public or private.  I don't think you are, but that would be a massive "taking" of private (virtual) property, and because that virtual property has some RL value, however fleeting, it would be a pretty collectivist step. And that would be a real change from business as usual.

But again, I don't think that's what you're proposing. Rather, this sounds like only a very slightly downmarket variant of the L$1/m² price at which all abandoned land used to be offered. They stopped doing that because it turned essentially the whole map yellow, but it's only symbolically different from the current practice of selling for L$1/m² anybody any abandoned land they want.

The US$4 difference between L$1024 and L$1 for the standard Premium bonus Mainland parcel is just too small to matter to anybody, and that will be even more true when you can liquidate your US$4 investment for maybe US$3 at auction in a matter of days (or hours?) -- much like the service landbots used to perform back when any old Mainland was worth buying. That's why I mentioned the user-to-user auctions in an earlier post: I think that and the proposal both aim to address much the same issue, liquidity at the very bottom of the market.

No one is taking anyones property. I am simply offering a plan to get as much tier from as much mainland as quickly as possible. Every person will have the same opportunity to buy the $1L parcels just as they can right now on estates. What someone does with their parcel after they buy it is not LL's concern. The can live on it or sell it. People are still free to sell their land for whatever price they wish. As i said in another post I paid probably $20,000 L for my 11,000 sq m parcel but in the meantime I've paid about $210,000 L in tier.

When I decide to move I'm not gonna try and get my purchase price back, waiting weeks or months for a buyer, costing me even more tier, I'll just abandon it and pay the asking price of yet another parcel.

LL wants tier. A fully occupied mainland will generate far more tier than abandoned land.

$1 L per parcel has been an excellent strategy for estate owners, it will work just as well for LL.

 

Edited August 9, 2018 by Phorumities
fixed a word

[Alyona Su]

11 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

No one is taking anyones property. I am simply offering a plan to get as much tier from as much mainland as quickly as possible. Every person will have the same opportunity to buy the $1L parcels just as they can right now on estates. What someone does with their parcel after they buy it is not LL's concern. The can live on it or sell it. People are still free to sell their land for whatever price they wish. As i said in another post I paid probably $20,000 L for my 11,000 sq m parcel but in the meantime I've paid about $210,000 L in tier.

When I decide to move I'm not gonna try and get my purchase price back, waiting weeks or months for a buyer, costing me even more tier, I'll just abandon it and pay the asking price of yet another parcel.

LL wants tier. A fully occupied mainland will generate far more tier than abandoned land.

$1 L per parcel has been an excellent strategy for estate owners, it will work just as well for LL.

 

Are you still on this?

As has already been stated before, even in this thread, I believe, every time LL ever sells land they always sell it for L$1 per M2. It has been that since the beginning of SL (as I know it: circa 2005). The point is that what you keep harping on is something already in place.

Now, if you are saying LL should sell land at L$1 for the entire parcel: that's just really stupid business sense. As for estate owners: it doesn't matter if they give away their land, they still pay LL a minimum of $150 U.S. Dollars a month for it; LL is still being paid and it is STILL a resident-to-resident transaction, which LL tries to stay out of as much as possible (resident-to-resident activity of any sort).

Since no one is going to change your mind about this idea of yours then so be it. As for me, I only am trying to get you to admit it's a pipe-dream.

[Klytyna]

52 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

I am simply offering a plan to get as much tier from as much mainland as quickly as possible.

Not a very good plan though...

53 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

Every person will have the same opportunity to buy the $1L parcels

Well not EVERY person, only those who also pay to join Madlander Entitlement Club, which by the way causes LL to LOSE $2 a MONTH in lost tier for every 'Free 1024'.

55 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

What someone does with their parcel after they buy it is not LL's concern. The can live on it or sell it. People are still free to sell their land for whatever price they wish.

Yup, the LAND FLIPPERS you hate so much will have a field day, buy half sim plots of abandoned land for a linden, chop into 1024's and sell for 10 ls /sqm... Fantastic!

57 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

$1 L per parcel has been an excellent strategy for estate owners, it will work just as well for LL.

Doubtful, the estates make it work because they will rent/sell land to ANYONE with the lindens to spend...

LL have a long standing track record of making Madlands NOT available to everyone... 

Plus, many people don't WANT to live in the Madlands, they prefer the calm quiet of the Islands to the Screaming Bugger Thy Neighbour Drama-Llama wars of the Madlands.

Madlands is a failed experiment, one that failed more than 10 years ago, and your almost free parcel plan failed way back when too. 

Give it up.

The only way they will EVER fill the Madlands again is to send in Storm Troopers to drive Islanders into Forced Madlander Camps, and even then, the loss of revenue from closing down the estates coupled with the fascist drive to force everyone to live in Madlands ghettos, will drive away more Islanders than it transplants, and force LL to do what they should have done 10 years ago.

Turn off half the Madlands sims

 

[Phorumities]

4 hours ago, Alyona Su said:

Are you still on this?

As has already been stated before, even in this thread, I believe, every time LL ever sells land they always sell it for L$1 per M2. It has been that since the beginning of SL (as I know it: circa 2005). The point is that what you keep harping on is something already in place.

Now, if you are saying LL should sell land at L$1 for the entire parcel: that's just really stupid business sense. As for estate owners: it doesn't matter if they give away their land, they still pay LL a minimum of $150 U.S. Dollars a month for it; LL is still being paid and it is STILL a resident-to-resident transaction, which LL tries to stay out of as much as possible (resident-to-resident activity of any sort).

Since no one is going to change your mind about this idea of yours then so be it. As for me, I only am trying to get you to admit it's a pipe-dream.

actually i thought the thread had died but someone posted and i responded. As long as people reply I'll defend my idea. 

you seem to be contradicting yourself. if they give away an entire mainland sim for $1 L they will imediately be owed $175 US on the tier date. money is money and $175 a month is much better than $0 per month

But anyway , the only response that counts is if LL actually chose to try it.

Edited August 9, 2018 by Phorumities
added stuff, typo

[Phorumities]

3 hours ago, Klytyna said:

Not a very good plan though...

Well not EVERY person, only those who also pay to join Madlander Entitlement Club, which by the way causes LL to LOSE $2 a MONTH in lost tier for every 'Free 1024'.

Yup, the LAND FLIPPERS you hate so much will have a field day, buy half sim plots of abandoned land for a linden, chop into 1024's and sell for 10 ls /sqm... Fantastic!

Doubtful, the estates make it work because they will rent/sell land to ANYONE with the lindens to spend...

LL have a long standing track record of making Madlands NOT available to everyone... 

Plus, many people don't WANT to live in the Madlands, they prefer the calm quiet of the Islands to the Screaming Bugger Thy Neighbour Drama-Llama wars of the Madlands.

Madlands is a failed experiment, one that failed more than 10 years ago, and your almost free parcel plan failed way back when too. 

Give it up.

The only way they will EVER fill the Madlands again is to send in Storm Troopers to drive Islanders into Forced Madlander Camps, and even then, the loss of revenue from closing down the estates coupled with the fascist drive to force everyone to live in Madlands ghettos, will drive away more Islanders than it transplants, and force LL to do what they should have done 10 years ago.

Turn off half the Madlands sims

 

no one is forced to live anywhere my plan would instantly generate much more tier because as u say greedy flippers might buy it all and try to make 1000% profit on it.

but thats what they do anyway, and if all of mainland is for sale the prices will drop.

we all know you hate mainland and your solution would be to get rid of all of it so we can all live happily ever after on island estates

Edited August 9, 2018 by Phorumities
added stuff fixed stuff

[Klytyna]

15 hours ago, Phorumities said:

and if all of mainland is for sale the prices will drop.

So, you whine about land flippers buying up all the available madlands and sitting on it at inflated prices, then suggest this epic fail of a plan to allow them to buy up all the currently un-available madlands and sit on that at inflated prices too, for a lot less than they payed for the available bits.

Then you claim that them sitting on more land at cheaper costs to them selves will mean lower prices., when in fact, they have managed to keep the price of land unnaturally high over large areas of SL, for YEARS, in clear defiance of the "Law of Supply and Demand" enshrined in your "Free Market Fallacy".

The "invisible guiding hand" is suffering from carpal tunnel syndrome and has been hacked off with an axe, dried, and nailed to a tree as a voodoo totem.

Giving people with near monopolies EVEN bigger near monopolies, DOES NOT LOWER PRICES.

 

[Phorumities]

19 hours ago, Klytyna said:

So, you whine about land flippers buying up all the available madlands and sitting on it at inflated prices, then suggest this epic fail of a plan to allow them to buy up all the currently un-available madlands and sit on that at inflated prices too, for a lot less than they payed for the available bits.

Then you claim that them sitting on more land at cheaper costs to them selves will mean lower prices., when in fact, they have managed to keep the price of land unnaturally high over large areas of SL, for YEARS, in clear defiance of the "Law of Supply and Demand" enshrined in your "Free Market Fallacy".

The "invisible guiding hand" is suffering from carpal tunnel syndrome and has been hacked off with an axe, dried, and nailed to a tree as a voodoo totem.

Giving people with near monopolies EVEN bigger near monopolies, DOES NOT LOWER PRICES.

 

You really think that land flippers will buy up every single abandoned parcel of mainland? We are talking hundreds of sims in aggregate.

And why do you think land flippers will buy all the land? Everyone will have an equal chance to buy these parcels, just as everyone right now has the same chance to get direct sale from LL. Even that change is hurting the land flippers, because no one will pay a flipper 5 L per sqm when they can get it direct from LL for 1 L per sq m.

And there will be so much land for sale, the prices will have to drop. Flippers can't sell their land now at the prices they ask. If the entire mainland was a sea of yellow, prices would most certainly drop.

As  I said before, I don't care who owns the land, this is a way to generate more revenue for LL and allow the mainland to contribute to LL's income instead of being a drain. And, who knows, if all of mainland was owned, the tier for estates might come down.

 

[Theresa Tennyson]

7 hours ago, Phorumities said:

You really think that land flippers will buy up every single abandoned parcel of mainland? We are talking hundreds of sims in aggregate.

And why do you think land flippers will buy all the land? Everyone will have an equal chance to buy these parcels, just as everyone right now has the same chance to get direct sale from LL. Even that change is hurting the land flippers, because no one will pay a flipper 5 L per sqm when they can get it direct from LL for 1 L per sq m.

And there will be so much land for sale, the prices will have to drop. Flippers can't sell their land now at the prices they ask. If the entire mainland was a sea of yellow, prices would most certainly drop.

As  I said before, I don't care who owns the land, this is a way to generate more revenue for LL and allow the mainland to contribute to LL's income instead of being a drain. And, who knows, if all of mainland was owned, the tier for estates might come down.

 

The demand for Mainland isn't high enough because the real factor is most people aren't willing or able to pay tier. A fair chunk of subprime land now is held by land flippers waiting for the limited amount of people who want subprime land to buy it from their holdings. If subprime land is extremely common this type of business won't be viable, but that land won't be bought for other purposes because most people don't consider the land worth the tier that needs to be paid, so the total amount of tier being paid will drop. That is exactly what happened when the Lab tried something similar before.

[Phorumities]

37 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

The demand for Mainland isn't high enough because the real factor is most people aren't willing or able to pay tier. A fair chunk of subprime land now is held by land flippers waiting for the limited amount of people who want subprime land to buy it from their holdings. If subprime land is extremely common this type of business won't be viable, but that land won't be bought for other purposes because most people don't consider the land worth the tier that needs to be paid, so the total amount of tier being paid will drop. That is exactly what happened when the Lab tried something similar before.

Thank you for showing Klytyna's contention that land flippers would take all the $1 L per parcel land is totally wrong. 

However, the two impediments to owning mainland is the difficulty in acquiring mainland and the difficulty in getting rid of mainland without losing the thousands of L's one paid for it.

People will NOT pay thousands of L's for subprime land, however they will move in for $1 L. It's the current system that is in place that discourages people from mainland, not the desirability of the land itself.

As I've said before, a 4096 in the middle of a wasteland is far desirable to a 4096 on a private estate with 100 M tall land walls

Under my plan, anyone (premium member) that wants mainland can get it as easily as they can get land on a private estate, and they can get rid of it just as easily.

If premium members are renting on estates, they are losing one benefit of that membership, and would be less likely to renew. More people using all their benefits would encourage them to maintain their premium status.

I'm sure lots of premium accounts would jump on mainland if my plan was in place.

In general tier is no more expensive than rent on a private estate. Perhaps you meant the cost of premium, but with the increased free tier allowance, premium membership paid yearly is basically free, for the benefits you get.

There is hundreds of sims worth of abandoned parcels on mainland. With my plan, LL has nothing to lose, but the gain can be a massive increase in mainland tier.

As I said before, a mainland sim only half owned (eight 4096's) will generate about as much tier for LL as a private sim, so if 100 sims worth of renters left the estates for mainland, that could be a loss of 100 sims worth of tier from private estates, but an increase of 200 sims worth of tier from increased mainland ownership.

LL has nothing to lose and everything to gain by setting all abandoned mainland on sale for $1 L per parcel.

Edited August 11, 2018 by Phorumities
fixed stuff

[Phorumities]

Step 1: LL Sets a full mainland sim on sale for $1 L

Step 2: Land flipper says omg a full sim for $1 L, I'll be rich

Step 3: Land flipper clicks buy and immediately owes LL $175 US

Step 4: Land flipper subdivides the parcel into 4096's and sets each parcel for sale for $10,000 L

Step 5: Land flipper sits on land month after month with no buyers, paying $175 US every single month

Step 6: Land Flipper finally says eff this and abandons the entire sim.

Step 7: See Step 1 

I don't see how this hurts LL in the slightest

Edited August 11, 2018 by Phorumities
changed words

[Theresa Tennyson]

1 hour ago, Phorumities said:

Step 1: LL Sets a full mainland sim on sale for $1 L

Step 2: Land flipper says omg a full sim for $1 L, I'll be rich

Step 3: Land flipper clicks buy and immediately owes LL $175 US

Step 4: Land flipper subdivides the parcel into 4096's and sets each parcel for sale for $10,000 L

Step 5: Land flipper sits on land month after month with no buyers, paying $175 US every single month

Step 6: Land Flipper finally says eff this and abandons the entire sim.

Step 7: See Step 1 

I don't see how this hurts LL in the slightest

Why would they do that if they knew anyone else could do that too?

[Phorumities]

25 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Why would they do that if they knew anyone else could do that too?

They wouldn't.

That's my point.

But a person wanting to own a full mainland sim to live on would buy it for $1 L.

Thank you once again for showing the way to increased mainland ownership is with $1 L per parcel land sales

[Theresa Tennyson]

2 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

They wouldn't.

That's my point.

But a person wanting to own a full mainland sim to live on would buy it for $1 L.

Thank you once again for showing the way to increased mainland ownership is with $1 L per parcel land sales

And they'd say to themselves, "And I'd pay the tier with my great stores full of affiliate vendors selling overpriced stuff nobody wanted six years ago/club I got off of Marketplace for L$50," find it doesn't work and abandon it after the first tier came due, leaving it empty until the next delusional soul does the same thing. I've seen it many times.

[Phorumities]

5 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

And they'd say to themselves, "And I'd pay the tier with my great stores full of affiliate vendors selling overpriced stuff nobody wanted six years ago/club I got off of Marketplace for L$50," find it doesn't work and abandon it after the first tier came due, leaving it empty until the next delusional soul does the same thing. I've seen it many times.

I'm not talking stores, marketplace destroyed the need for inworld stores anyway.

I'm talking about people that want a little slice of mainland to build a home.

THAT is who my plan is aimed at.

They will NOT spend $10,000 L for a parcel that might be blighted next week, but they will spend $1 L for a parcel they can abandon if the neighbor from hell moves in next door.

But don't worry, I'm not planning on moving any time soon.

*grins*

Edited August 11, 2018 by Phorumities
added a line, fixed stuff