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Phorumities

Estate Owners give away parcels, It's time for LL to do the same

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Posted (edited)

I've never seen a land flipper buy a parcel on an estate and try to sell it at a higher price.

Why is that?

Its because the land itself is worthless. Estate parcels sell for 1 L, first weeks tier due immediately. No one would pay a land flipper even 2 L for the parcel, because its over priced. And what if it was desirable? I don't think the estate owned would care, it's all about the rent.

If LL wants to return to full occupancy of main land, it desperately needs to reconsider its way of distributing mainland.

Dividing the whole of abandoned mainland into parcels of various sizes, and setting it for sale at $1 L per parcel is the answer.

LL doesn't care about or need the pennies it makes on direct sales of 1 L per sq m. LL wants tier, and a mainland entirely owned by land flippers is just the same as mainland owned and lived on by individuals.

But but but.... what if land flippers buy up every single parcel? So what? LL should only be concerned about maximizing its tier not who buys the land.

Are there enough land flippers out there to buy up all the vacant land on mainland? I sincerely doubt it. There will be a rush at first, flippers buying up everything in sight, but even they will eventually realize its no longer business as usual.

One of the biggest complaints I hear about mainland is that people are afraid to buy a parcel for thousands on Lindens, only to have the sim blighted the next week, and so they are forced to try and sell their land, or abandon it and buying another parcel, again for thousands on L's.

If you buy a parcel for 1 L, you won't think twice about abandoning it and buying  another for 1 L

The land itself has no value to LL.  The only value is in the tier it generates. If LL wants to maximize its mainland tier, it needs to put as much land out there, as quickly as possible, give it away, so that whoever buys, either to flip, or to live on,  is paying tier on it.

Abandoned land generates no income for LL. Abandoned land sold for 1 L per parcel generates tier from the moment someone clicks the buy button. 

It seems like an obvious solution to me

 

 

Edited by Phorumities
spelling, i'm sure there's more mistakes
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Posted (edited)

People, not necessarily in the land-flipping business, used to buy estate parcels for 1L, and even 0L, and try to sell them at a price that was cheap for mainland. It did happen. Maybe it still does.

At first thought, the idea isn't a bad one. The big thing though is that everyone on the mainland bought the land. Even in recent times when LL have been selling it off at 0.5L/mtr (auction starting price) and 1L/mtr (to order), land cost people a significant amount when compared to free. To suddenly start giving it away would alienate a lot of people.

I don't think the cost of buying land is the problem though. Imo, the problem is the ongoing tier cost, and the cost of a Premium account. I feel that those are what put a lot of people off from owning land, and not the initial cost of the land.

Edited by Phil Deakins

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Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

Why

why ?...

why again a discussion about landholdings? there are so many been , the subject is more often chewed than grass after passing the stomachs of a cow.

 

37 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

I've never seen a land flipper buy a parcel on an estate and try to sell it at a higher price.

because they don't own the land like mainland. The estate owner has that function.

 

Edited by Alwin Alcott

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21 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

People, not necessarily in the land-flipping business, used to buy estate parcels for 1L, and even 0L, and try to sell them at a price that was cheap for mainland. It did happen. Maybe it still does.

At first thought, the idea isn't a bad one. The big thing though is that everyone on the mainland bought the land. Even in recent times when LL have been selling it off at 0.5L/mtr (auction starting price) and 1L/mtr (to order), land cost people a significant amount when compared to free. To suddenly start giving it away would alienate a lot of people.

I don't think the cost of buying land is the problem though. Imo, the problem is the ongoing tier cost, and the cost of a Premium account. I feel that those are what put a lot of people off from owning land, and not the initial cost of the land.

@OP: LL always sells land for L$1/M. It doesn't matter who owns the land and whether they are selling it or not because LL is still getting the land-use fees for it. The same with private regions: even of the region owner gives away the lands, LL is still collecting the fees from the owner.

@Phil Deakins - Though the cost of buying mainland may be a factor as you describe, what I have discovered regarding mainland land ownership more often than not is that they (potential landowners) don't realize that they would *own* the land versus just renting it and most have never compared the actual costs of owning land directly from LL versus renting it from another resident.

The on;ly real benefit of renting on an estate is the ability to move around willy-nilly from one to another easily, albeit there are the risks involved (when the sim closes down, or for whatever reason you are kicked from your rental without refund or recourse, etc., which is fortunately rare.

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Not worth typing. This thread has the appropriate charts and comments to show how when Linden Lab did what for all intents and purposes is what you're proposing, the amount of abandoned land actually ended up increasing.

 

 

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58 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

The on;ly real benefit of renting on an estate is the ability to move around willy-nilly from one to another easily...

This reminds me that something big is changing Real Soon Now: private landowners will be able to put their Mainland parcels to auction. This means the land market will be vastly more liquid than before -- no longer a need to abandon a parcel to get it off tier at a date certain. So Mainland buyers won't need to make such a big deal commitment anymore.

I'm thinking that eventually this will mean much less abandoned land -- and less demand to go scrounging for the still-abandoned scraps. Sure, some junk still won't get bids and end up abandoned anyway, but we might expect the volumes to shift dramatically.

Until we see how that works, I sure wouldn't recommend spending any development time on changing how the current abandoned inventory is handled.

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2 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said:

why ?...

why again a discussion about landholdings? there are so many been , the subject is more often chewed than grass after passing the stomachs of a cow.

 

because they don't own the land like mainland. The estate owner has that function.

 

most estate covenants give u the right to subdivide and sell a parcel.

you own an estate parcel in the same way you own a mainland parcel, its just that on one you pay the estate owner on the other you pay LL

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Alyona Su said:

@OP: LL always sells land for L$1/M. It doesn't matter who owns the land and whether they are selling it or not because LL is still getting the land-use fees for it. The same with private regions: even of the region owner gives away the lands, LL is still collecting the fees from the owner.

@Phil Deakins - Though the cost of buying mainland may be a factor as you describe, what I have discovered regarding mainland land ownership more often than not is that they (potential landowners) don't realize that they would *own* the land versus just renting it and most have never compared the actual costs of owning land directly from LL versus renting it from another resident.

The on;ly real benefit of renting on an estate is the ability to move around willy-nilly from one to another easily, albeit there are the risks involved (when the sim closes down, or for whatever reason you are kicked from your rental without refund or recourse, etc., which is fortunately rare.

yes its of no concern to LL who owns the land nor should it.

owning an estate parcel is exactly the same as owning a mainland parcel there is no difference in your powers as landowner.

if mainland parcels sold for $1 per parcel, people could move around as easily as they do on estates and that would negate one perceived drawback to owning mainland which is getting stuck beside a new  neighbor blighting the sim.

if LL makes it as easy to buy a mainland parcel as it is to buy an estate parcel i believe you'll see a renewed interest in buying mainland to live on.

I also believe if it was as easy, a lot more people would be tempted to give premium membership a try

 

Edited by Phorumities
added stuff

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1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said:

This reminds me that something big is changing Real Soon Now: private landowners will be able to put their Mainland parcels to auction. This means the land market will be vastly more liquid than before -- no longer a need to abandon a parcel to get it off tier at a date certain. So Mainland buyers won't need to make such a big deal commitment anymore.

 

im pretty sure that untill the auction closed, the seller will still own the land and be responsible for tier.

and still people will have to outbid each other

if all empty parcels are priced at 1 L per parcel you wont worry about trying to get your money back before moving, you'll just abandon it and pick up a different parcel for 1L

1L parcels will mean the rejuvination of mainland

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Phorumities said:

owning an estate parcel is exactly the same as owning a mainland parcel there is no difference in your powers as landowner.

if mainland parcels sold for $1 per parcel, people could move around as easily as they do on estates and that would negate one perceived drawback to owning mainland which is getting stuck beside a new  neighbor blighting the sim

 

UNTRUE.

When you own "LL" land (a.k.a. "Mainland" you *OWN* it (the definition of "own" being in SL terms) - you pay land use fees directly to LL. There is no covenant, there are zero restrictions (because even in G-rated land you can still have adult stuff as long as it is hidden away and you make a good-faith effort to restrict access, TOS notwithstanding), etc.

LL will *never* evict you unless you fail to pay the land-use fees.

When you "rent" from another resident, even if they set that parcel to have the full "ownership permissions" it is still owned by that other resident because they have the same God Mode tools that Lindens have: They can reclaim the land with the click of a button, whereas they, the other resident, can and will evict you and ban you from the sim for any or no reason whatsoever. The money spent on this rent is equivalent or higher to the same land-use tier paid directly to LL.

Therefore, it is a trade-off of priorities: A higher weekly price and Covenant rules for a prettier (and sometimes laggier, as in "town community") location with the ability to rent for a week then easily move-on with no losses at the risk of some drama involving a neighbor or the estate (sim) owner which gets you kicked out and sometimes banned with no refunds whatsoever. Fortunately, that is bad business, so it is rare, but it does happen often and is the risk of renting from another person - you are at the mercy of another SL user, plain and simple.

Or...

Pay a similar or lower price with the risk of having some eventual neighbor building ghastly creations next door, but also knowing you are secure and forever the actual "owner" of that virtual property as long as you pay the land-use fees.

It is not the same because LL will never evict you for any reason other than not paying your required tier of land-use fees and you will never lose money (and even abandoning land is technically not losing money, but rather actually saving it), where renting from another resident is all you're doing: Paying another SL user for the "privilege" of using up some of their prim and nothing more, where they can kick you out on a whim.

I've owned many sims before, I know very well how it works: One click and you're out - I reclaim the land and return everything you own into your Lost-and-Found folder. One more click and you're banned. LL will never do that. Sim owners do it all the time. That is the difference.

EDIT TO ADD:

When renting from another SL user: you pay everything up-front. So if you're kicked out or banned, any and all money you've already paid into that rental is forfeit and lost, unless the landlord is adult enough to refund it to you, though if you're kicked out, I wouldn't presume they are in that kind of mood. (And why I very strongly recommend to private-sim renters to never, ever pay more than a week in advance, ever. It's just smart business that way.)

Linden Lab takes your land-use payment at the *end* of the period, not the beginning. That is another huge, and I mean *massive* advantage. So, "no difference" between renting on a private estate and mainland? I beg to differ.

If your wallet runs dry after shopping or whatever and you don't have this week's private sim parcel rent then what happens? Two guesses and the first doesn't count. On the mainland, you have a full month to earn, buy, or otherwise scrape up the L$ and convert to $ to pay your tier. And even with the conversion fees, it often still costs less than renting on a private estate and at-best: same rate.

Edited by Alyona Su
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31 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

most estate covenants give u the right to subdivide and sell a parcel.

only when you inform clearly the rent has to be paid to the landlord, also when you give/sell your prepaid rent to them. If not the landlord will kick them out faster than they bought the land from you.
Quite a difference than owning mainland with tierpayment.

33 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

you own an estate parcel in the same way you own a mainland parcel, its just that on one you pay the estate owner on the other you pay LL

no it's a huge difference in owning with tier or owning with rent. If you don't see that you'll have to start reading some threads that were here about these subjects before.

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26 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

if all empty parcels are priced at 1 L per parcel you wont worry about trying to get your money back before moving, you'll just abandon it and pick up a different parcel for 1L

1L parcels will mean the rejuvination of mainland

If the land is worthless, and there's no compelling reason to sell it rather than to abandon it, I can see how this could lead to an increase in abandoned land in the long run. This would also basically make everyone's current holdings basically worthless.

The initial purchase cost of mainland was never the issue for me - that was a one-time expenditure.  I've always been able to eventually find land in an OK location and for what I considered to be an acceptable price, after spending some time looking around.  What led me to sale my mainland holdings last summer wasn't the initial cost of purchase, but needing to downsize monthly tier.

I think the ability for residents to be able to auction their land will be beneficial.  

I agree with Alyona and Alwin that there is a big difference between owning mainland and leasing from a private estate, particularly in terms of what you can do on/with the land.  You aren't really buying estate land in the same sense as buying mainland, so it doesn't really make sense that estates would charge a large sale price in addition to the weekly rental/lease fee.  Just because estates don't have a compelling reason to 'sell' a parcel for more than 1L  (though there are some I've seen that charge 40 or 50 lindens, and others that charge 0 lindens), it doesn't necessarily follow that mainland parcels should also be sold for 1L per parcel.

 

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47 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

UNTRUE.

When you own "LL" land (a.k.a. "Mainland" you *OWN* it (the definition of "own" being in SL terms) - you pay land use fees directly to LL. There is no covenant, there are zero restrictions (because even in G-rated land you can still have adult stuff as long as it is hidden away and you make a good-faith effort to restrict access, TOS notwithstanding), etc.

LL will *never* evict you unless you fail to pay the land-use fees.

When you "rent" from another resident, even if they set that parcel to have the full "ownership permissions" it is still owned by that other resident because they have the same God Mode tools that Lindens have: They can reclaim the land with the click of a button, whereas they, the other resident, can and will evict you and ban you from the sim for any or no reason whatsoever. The money spent on this rent is equivalent or higher to the same land-use tier paid directly to LL.

Therefore, it is a trade-off of priorities: A higher weekly price and Covenant rules for a prettier (and sometimes laggier, as in "town community") location with the ability to rent for a week then easily move-on with no losses at the risk of some drama involving a neighbor or the estate (sim) owner which gets you kicked out and sometimes banned with no refunds whatsoever. Fortunately, that is bad business, so it is rare, but it does happen often and is the risk of renting from another person - you are at the mercy of another SL user, plain and simple.

Or...

Pay a similar or lower price with the risk of having some eventual neighbor building ghastly creations next door, but also knowing you are secure and forever the actual "owner" of that virtual property as long as you pay the land-use fees.

It is not the same because LL will never evict you for any reason other than not paying your required tier of land-use fees and you will never lose money (and even abandoning land is technically not losing money, but rather actually saving it), where renting from another resident is all you're doing: Paying another SL user for the "privilege" of using up some of their prim and nothing more, where they can kick you out on a whim.

I've owned many sims before, I know very well how it works: One click and you're out - I reclaim the land and return everything you own into your Lost-and-Found folder. One more click and you're banned. LL will never do that. Sim owners do it all the time. That is the difference.

EDIT TO ADD:

When renting from another SL user: you pay everything up-front. So if you're kicked out or banned, any and all money you've already paid into that rental is forfeit and lost, unless the landlord is adult enough to refund it to you, though if you're kicked out, I wouldn't presume they are in that kind of mood. (And why I very strongly recommend to private-sim renters to never, ever pay more than a week in advance, ever. It's just smart business that way.)

Linden Lab takes your land-use payment at the *end* of the period, not the beginning. That is another huge, and I mean *massive* advantage. So, "no difference" between renting on a private estate and mainland? I beg to differ.

If your wallet runs dry after shopping or whatever and you don't have this week's private sim parcel rent then what happens? Two guesses and the first doesn't count. On the mainland, you have a full month to earn, buy, or otherwise scrape up the L$ and convert to $ to pay your tier. And even with the conversion fees, it often still costs less than renting on a private estate and at-best: same rate.

all you have done is prove there is no difference between owning mainland and owning on an estate.

thank you

 

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

all you have done is prove there is no difference between owning mainland and owning on an estate.

thank you

 

BAHAHAHA!

Denial is not just a river. Which has me remembering an old National Geographic article that said cognizance among chimpanzees is a lot closer to humans than one might presume.

Edited by Alyona Su

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10 minutes ago, moirakathleen said:

If the land is worthless, and there's no compelling reason to sell it rather than to abandon it, I can see how this could lead to an increase in abandoned land in the long run. This would also basically make everyone's current holdings basically worthless.

The initial purchase cost of mainland was never the issue for me - that was a one-time expenditure.  I've always been able to eventually find land in an OK location and for what I considered to be an acceptable price, after spending some time looking around.  What led me to sale my mainland holdings last summer wasn't the initial cost of purchase, but needing to downsize monthly tier.

I think the ability for residents to be able to auction their land will be beneficial.  

I agree with Alyona and Alwin that there is a big difference between owning mainland and leasing from a private estate, particularly in terms of what you can do on/with the land.  You aren't really buying estate land in the same sense as buying mainland, so it doesn't really make sense that estates would charge a large sale price in addition to the weekly rental/lease fee.  Just because estates don't have a compelling reason to 'sell' a parcel for more than 1L  (though there are some I've seen that charge 40 or 50 lindens, and others that charge 0 lindens), it doesn't necessarily follow that mainland parcels should also be sold for 1L per parcel.

 

exactly u dont sell it you abandon it and it immediately goes back on sale for 1L the land has no value to LL only the tier has value

if u abandon mainland u still owe the tier for the rest of the month. this way you can immediately go grab another 1L parcel.

 

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1 minute ago, Alyona Su said:

BAHAHAHA!

Denial is not just a river. Which has me remembering an old National Geographic article that said cognizance among chimpanzees is a lot closer to humans than one might presume.

regardless, owning land on mainland or an estate is no different. pay the money or get evicted

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58 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

only when you inform clearly the rent has to be paid to the landlord, also when you give/sell your prepaid rent to them. If not the landlord will kick them out faster than they bought the land from you.
Quite a difference than owning mainland with tierpayment.

no it's a huge difference in owning with tier or owning with rent. If you don't see that you'll have to start reading some threads that were here about these subjects before.

owning is owning, the about land is identical on mainland or on an estate

either you are listed as owner of the parcel or you aren't.

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so what would you all do if someone at LL saw my idea and said "interesting, lets do it" and tomorrow you woke up and that was the new policy

what would you all do?

 

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

owning is owning, the about land is identical on mainland or on an estate

either you are listed as owner of the parcel or you aren't.

The difference is who is listed in the Estate Owner tab has a direct correlation to the risk of arbitrarily losing ownership of the said parcel. But I digress, I've made my point. If you want to call the sky yellow, then so be it. You'll see yellow and I'll see blue. We shall just agree to disagree.

4 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

so what would you all do if someone at LL saw my idea and said "interesting, lets do it" and tomorrow you woke up and that was the new policy

what would you all do?

 

 

Unlikely they will do it because they are making their RL $ the way it is right now and changing to anything like your idea doesn't change anything in that respect. If there is no positive return on investment (making more money to offset the cost of doing something, such as employee/engineer time required to make that change) it won't make sense to them.

So it is, as I see it, a pipe-dream.

Edited by Alyona Su

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

The difference is who is listed in the Estate Owner tab has a direct correlation to the risk of arbitrarily losing ownership of the said parcel. But I digress, I've made my point. If you want to call the sky yellow, then so be it. You'll see yellow and I'll see blue. We shall just agree to disagree.

actually there is one difference if you are late on your rent to a landlord you get evicted. if you are late on your tier your account is locked but thats not a difference in owning the land itself thats just what happens if you dont pay your bill on time

Edited by Phorumities
added a line

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1 minute ago, Phorumities said:

actually there is one difference if you are late on your rent to a landlord you get evicted. if you are late on your tier your account is locked

You have to be in arrears for 60 days before your account is locked. You only need to be late for a week or less on most estates before you're evicted. Seriously, you've made your case and I've made mine. And I do thank you for being civil about it, it's a good debate. :)

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1 minute ago, Alyona Su said:

You have to be in arrears for 60 days before your account is locked. You only need to be late for a week or less on most estates before you're evicted. Seriously, you've made your case and I've made mine. And I do thank you for being civil about it, it's a good debate. :)

oic, thankyou, I was under the impression that a day late on tier or premium renewal and you were blocked from logging inworld untill updated payment info was added.

I rarely take the first shot when it comes to insults or namecalling.

I find it much more satisfying to just report the person attacking me.

Heavy moderation with the risk of ingame suspension keeps me on my best behavour.

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3 hours ago, Phorumities said:

yes its of no concern to LL who owns the land nor should it.

owning an estate parcel is exactly the same as owning a mainland parcel there is no difference in your powers as landowner.

if mainland parcels sold for $1 per parcel, people could move around as easily as they do on estates and that would negate one perceived drawback to owning mainland which is getting stuck beside a new  neighbor blighting the sim.

if LL makes it as easy to buy a mainland parcel as it is to buy an estate parcel i believe you'll see a renewed interest in buying mainland to live on.

I also believe if it was as easy, a lot more people would be tempted to give premium membership a try

 

I once heard it said that the advantage to owning a mobile home is that if you don't like your neighbors you can move your house. The problem is, given the average trailer park, your new neighbors are probably going to be very similar to your old ones.

Private estates tend to be very uniform so one lot is very like another, but on mainland you have water/road/etc. regions and then you have the big empty regions that were originally meant for things like shopping malls and stores which the Marketplace reduced demand for and which are just as desirable as all the dying real-world second tier shopping malls - i.e. not at all. With your system, all the really nice lots will quickly be bought up and if you're not willing to pay a premium the only L$1 lots will be the ones nobody wanted, making them hardly worth paying tier on.

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3 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

I once heard it said that the advantage to owning a mobile home is that if you don't like your neighbors you can move your house. The problem is, given the average trailer park, your new neighbors are probably going to be very similar to your old ones.

Private estates tend to be very uniform so one lot is very like another, but on mainland you have water/road/etc. regions and then you have the big empty regions that were originally meant for things like shopping malls and stores which the Marketplace reduced demand for and which are just as desirable as all the dying real-world second tier shopping malls - i.e. not at all. With your system, all the really nice lots will quickly be bought up and if you're not willing to pay a premium the only L$1 lots will be the ones nobody wanted, making them hardly worth paying tier on.

Then maybe LL should put in more roads. If every sim had a road thru the middle they could parcel out 8 4096's (4 on each side of the road) and the tier from those 8 4096's would be 176 dollars a month. The land behind those 4096 could be claimed by citizens wishing to up their tier.

A lot of private estates I've seen are so incredibly ugly, an interior parcel on mainland would be vastly superior.

It's really all about LL getting more tier from mainland, and my plan would make that happen.

I might even be tempted to move, and then those land flipper holding land beside me might actually be able to sell their plots

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