Coming Out as a New Woman

[Janet Voxel]

I don't think Kristen was trying to come off judgmental or confrontational at all. She gave a really good explanation of why she was asking right below the question. It's difficult to get that feeling across especially when you're dealing with people from all around the world who just don't know what that experience is. Its a feeling that comes from a long history of things that I don't need to get into here particularly towards black women. It's still very important to try to understand that though. 

So Love, you got the skin you wanted and all that good stuff.  You got a whole bunch of people behind you to help you out and support you. I'm sure you're not done tweaking and by the time you're finished your alt will be fabulous and it will be just how you want it!

[Love Zhaoying]

44 minutes ago, janetosilio said:

She gave a really good explanation of why she was asking right below the question.

..AFTER I answered, she gave a better explanation.

Edited March 27, 2018 by Love Zhaoying

[Love Zhaoying]

46 minutes ago, janetosilio said:

So Love, you got the skin you wanted and all that good stuff.  You got a whole bunch of people behind you to help you out and support you. I'm sure you're not done tweaking and by the time you're finished your alt will be fabulous and it will be just how you want it!

 

Thanks for your support!

[Love Zhaoying]

2 hours ago, LexxiXhan said:

- any regular forum users know you're a sweetie and that you not only experience and understand marginalisation but also support those of us who experience it in different forms.

You too, hon!

[Destiny Marques]

@janetosilio

Thanks for explaining that. 

Considering that he and I both come from marginalized groups that have experienced our share of bigotry, hatred, and discrimination.. I was trying to find out why Love specifically chose the look that he did, esp being that I am someone who comes from the demographic that he has chosen to represent with his avatar.

It would be no different than if I decided to make a gay male or femboy avatar and he asked me why did I choose that. I'd try to explain it to the best of my abilities, by opening up a dialogue about it and if offered some useful pointers, I'd be more than open to it. Because after all, I'm not a gay man and have never lived that experience or taken a walk in his shoes. So I don't profess to know all there is to know about that life. I can only present my interpretation of what I perceive a gay man to be . 

It's just that simple.

Edited March 27, 2018 by Kristen Beornssen

[Janet Voxel]

6 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

..AFTER I answered, she gave a better explanation.

No, I get that. That's why I said it's a thing that's very difficult to get across. I was asking you in the other thread what kind of inspiration were you getting from real life, it seemed like you got defensive about that too, so I left it alone. It seems like there's a lot of miscommunication with all of this because its a very sensitive thing. But in reality it's SL you can do what you want and look how you want. Its just very easy to fall into a certain stereotype and it's a stereotype that is very common in SL, no matter what the original intention is. At the end of the day though, we all just want you to have the best black avi possible!

[Destiny Marques]

16 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

..AFTER I answered, she gave a better explanation.

Right, AFTER you answered, because I didn't want to make any assumptions or jump to any conclusions. I always try to ask to get clarity first before offering an explanation.

[Love Zhaoying]

4 minutes ago, janetosilio said:

I was asking you in the other thread what kind of inspiration were you getting from real life, it seemed like you got defensive about that too, so I left it alone.

I was defensive because the only pics I had were from Second Life Marketplace ads. I was not going to search RL for any inspiration, but I knew what I liked. I eventually replied and posted the marketplace ad for the skin I liked, hoping you would not be critical. Put differently, I don’t use RL for inspiration, I use memories of people I know (or public figures I am familiar with). 

All of the fabulous suggestions I got from Pussycat and others led me to Tuty’s, Angel Rock, a specific  Catwa Head for a specific Belleza body, and so on. I took each piece of advice and saved it in notes, then searched until I found something that matched what I was looking for.

I hope this explains my process..I have many notes from people’s advice for things to go check out still.

Obviously, there is much more controversy in this process than I had anticipated. First, there was a discussion over “African” noses, with various disagreements and arguments. Then, there was questioning of my choice for skin tone. Do you see where I’m going with this? 

[Love Zhaoying]

15 minutes ago, Kristen Beornssen said:

why Love specifically chose the look that he did

If I was not clear, I find that look most attractive, personally. I’m sure we all have differences in what we are attracted to. Your picture asking, “Who wouldn’t find this beautiful” scared me, what if someone (not me of course) disagreed with you? We all have our own ideas of what is “more” beautiful, as individuals based on our tastes, our preferences, and our gut.

[LittleMe Jewell]

12 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Obviously, there is much more controversy in this process than I had anticipated. First, there was a discussion over “African” noses, with various disagreements and arguments. Then, there was questioning of my choice for skin tone. Do you see where I’m going with this? 

I don't see all of the discussions as controversy, adversarial, judgmental, or anything like that.  I see them as simply discussions.

I am also not intending to sound harsh when I suggest that there might be something within you that is causing you to immediately see these discussions as some sort of personal attack.  Sometimes our own issues cause us to see things a certain way and we have to very actively choose to read things with a more open mind.   Maybe just  try to read things from the point of view that they are really just discussions to either help you or give the other person insight into things.

Edited March 27, 2018 by LittleMe Jewell

[Destiny Marques]

21 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

If I was not clear, I find that look most attractive, personally. I’m sure we all have differences in what we are attracted to. Your picture asking, “Who wouldn’t find this beautiful” scared me, what if someone (not me of course) disagreed with you? We all have our own ideas of what is “more” beautiful, as individuals based on our tastes, our preferences, and our gut.

I wasn't asking for more clarity, I got what you meant after your first explanation. And if they disagreed with me, that is their prerogative, to each their own. I don't go around trying to force people into liking what I like.

As black women we've heard it all - We're unattractive, we're loud, we're obnoxious, no one wants us, we're angry, we're too black, we aren't black enough, our body types aren't desirable, other races of men would never look twice at us (my husband is white so I know that isn't true), we're welfare queens, we're supposedly sexually promiscuous; our natural hair styles are not welcome at work, at school, in public etc etc etc ... And the list goes on and on and on.and on.

 

Edited March 27, 2018 by Kristen Beornssen

[Love Zhaoying]

5 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

I don't see all of the discussions as controversy, adversarial, judgmental, or anything like that.  I see them as simply discussions.

I am also not intending to sound harsh when I suggest that there might be something within you that is causing you to immediately see these discussions as some sort of personal attack.  Sometimes our own issues cause us to see things a certain way and we have to very actively choose to read things with a more open mind.   Maybe just  try to read things from the point of view that they are really just discussions to either help you or give the other person insight into things.

I’m trying hard, that’s why I’m explaining so carefully. I tried to stay out of the “African noses” discussion, but when asked directly why I chose a “stereotypical African skin”, I felt the need to respond.  Words matter sometimes. Maybe I can start replying first with questions such as, “may I ask why you phrased the question as you did, because many people may be offended by the use of ‘stereotypical’ skin”.

Edited March 27, 2018 by Love Zhaoying

[Janet Voxel]

29 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I was defensive because the only pics I had were from Second Life Marketplace ads. I was not going to search RL for any inspiration, but I knew what I liked. I eventually replied and posted the marketplace ad for the skin I liked, hoping you would not be critical. Put differently, I don’t use RL for inspiration, I use memories of people I know (or public figures I am familiar with). 

Well really, that's all you had to say because all I was trying to tell you was you have a lot of choices. But you made your choice and you're happy with it, so there isn't much else to discuss on that matter.

29 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Obviously, there is much more controversy in this process than I had anticipated. First, there was a discussion over “African” noses, with various disagreements and arguments. Then, there was questioning of my choice for skin tone. Do you see where I’m going with this? 

That's also what Kristen was trying to get across to you, it's something that just can easily get out of control and there's a history there. There are people that put on a black skin, the darkest one they can find and just do ridiculous things, not that that's what you're trying to do. It's just all in how you do it. That's why I'm not going to engage in a dialectic about African phenotypes or which head has the blackest features (because they're bento and you can make any head look black) blah, blah, blah...its ridiculous and unnecessary and really who really has that kind of discussion? At the end of the day, if you're happy with how you look that's all that matters. It needs work, but you'll figure all that out.

Edited March 27, 2018 by janetosilio

[Love Zhaoying]

I’m color-blind sometimes to skin shade. One of my closest friends showed me a picture of himself with his father. He pointed and showed me that he was far, far darker. I just couldn’t get my eyes to see it - from my point of view, he must be standing in a different light than his father, standing in the shade, etc. It opened my mind to how blind I am to such things. 

[Love Zhaoying]

Being my first female avatar and only second Mesh Avatar, I’ll derail my own thread again to ask about neck seams. The Belleza Jake / Catwa Daniel combo came with a “fix” for blending the neck join. (I forgot if it’s the body or head that has it.) It doesn’t blend the texture (skin/color) as much as the “join”.

Neither the Belleza Freya or Catwa Lona came with this “neck fix”. Luckily, it’s not so apparent with the dark skin I happened to choose. Even with same skin tone, there’s a visible line that is not nearly as apparent on my Jake/Daniel with the “neck fix”. (Yes, I’ve read other posts about that, covering it, etc.)

Is the “neck join fix” only supplied for some bodies/heads?

[LittleMe Jewell]

13 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

 Is the “neck join fix” only supplied for some bodies/heads?

I was under the impression that the Neck Fix was only for the join of a system head to a mesh body.  I think I remember reading here in the forums that folks were told to turn that off for mesh body to mesh head.

[Pussycat Catnap]

.

Edited March 27, 2018 by Pussycat Catnap

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

I was under the impression that the Neck Fix was only for the join of a system head to a mesh body.  I think I remember reading here in the forums that folks were told to turn that off for mesh body to mesh head.

You have a point. I may have turned it back off! So, why would the join line be more apparent with Freya/Lona than with Jake/Daniel?

[Pussycat Catnap]

On 3/25/2018 at 4:30 AM, Love Zhaoying said:

In case you missed it..my first picture!

*Edit* Think I’ll transition to only posting LoveX’s pictures under Love’s account so that I’m not posting under two accounts. Plus, I want her “likes”!

What hair is that? I think I need to go shopping. I've been looking for something like that.

[Love Zhaoying]

6 minutes ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

What hair is that? I think I need to go shopping. I've been looking for something like that.

Tuty’s, I think. I put the details in the Vanity thread post, same date. Someone commented above that I should have a hair base - it didn’t occur to me that the “tuft” I hid by adjusting the hair was supposed to be there, as it didn’t show in the MP ad. Here it is:

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/TuTys-VOGUE-afro-hairstyle-Black/2704320

p.s. My search was for “short” Afro hair. This is the one I liked the best from first (long) searching.

Edited March 27, 2018 by Love Zhaoying

[LittleMe Jewell]

5 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

  So, why would the join line be more apparent with Freya/Lona than with Jake/Daniel?

I know not enough about mesh heads to answer that.  You'll have to wait on someone more knowledgeable

[Pussycat Catnap]

On 3/25/2018 at 6:10 AM, Alyona Su said:

Yes, yes, I know exactly what you mean.

I want to add: that is a REALLY nice skin. I see a lot of "extra-dark" skins (my own description) and they are simply not done right.

A lot of skin makers take a caucasian skin into photoshop and just use the hue tool...

You can find this by noting certain things like some odd greys on color transitions, or the palms and soles of feet also being dark.

- The general result though, tends to not look so good.

That skin is from Angel Rock, and she makes her skins specific for African tones. She's done some good Asian skins as well in the past. I do not know the quality of her lighter tones. They might suffer the same issue as many designers have, only in reverse... and end up looking like "Albino Africans":

But I can't say.

I think Angel Rock is so particular that she'd manage to avoid this... but it could happen.

In years past... Angel Rock skns DID suffer in some windlight settings from a 'sandy look'... but she's resolved that in the current generation. It was a problem in her 'second generation' skins.

[Love Zhaoying]

11 minutes ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

That skin is from Angel Rock, and she makes her skins specific for African tones.

I’m just lucky and grateful that I found you guys to make such awesome recommendations and give advice. Thank you!

[Pussycat Catnap]

7 hours ago, Kristen Beornssen said:

"@Pussycat Catnap This is weird, everyone was so nice until now."

I haven't been mean to you. Blunt and direct with my questioning sure, but I've never been one to beat around the bush. Come on Love, are you honestly going to sit here and get offended over a black woman asking you about your avatar that's meant to represent a black female?! Um...  When pussycat said that she didn't like Jane's look in your thread, did you see her get all bent out of shape? No, she didn't.

Just so it's out there. I am actually a 'Casta / Tusán' (google is your friend) using a black AV in SL. If you met my RL self... you would probably think you were meeting a Mexican with an unusual nose and 'kinky' hair. My nose 'gives away' a quattro-racial heritage.

I use a very dark skin tone on my avatar because that is what I see as beautiful. But she originally started getting darker and darker shades in 'reaction' to people complaining that my skin was 'too dark' when I was newer in SL and finally found my first 'non-pale' skin tone. I've always been that way... if somebody says "that's wrong" and I feel they're reasons are unjust or badly motivated, I do it twice as much. In the end I simply ran out of 'darker choices'...

My AV choice also highly reflects on my RL community and faith. But that's a topic people have told me I've covered too many times here already...

 

The 'nose' sidetrack in that other thread was kind of an accident... I was just looking for 'the thing about that avatar that seemed off' and went with something... and then a post or two later showed how my own gut instinct was wrong...  My own RL nose gets it's own bit of attention. Anytime people try to 'peg me' to some group... they get hung up on the nose and I see that look in their eyes that is wrestling with the words 'WTF'...

 

[Love Zhaoying]

8 hours ago, Kristen Beornssen said:

Of course, I'm totally aware of the biases against darker skin. I mean who wouldn't find this beautiful?

 

Also, there is no need to be offended by my questions.  As a woman of color, I was curious about your choices and I'll explain why:

When black people make our avies, we just tend to try and reflect what we see in the mirror and what we see around us daily. However, I have noticed that when non-black people portray "us" in SL, it's usually in the most stereotypical sense. Like that whole discussion about nose sizes, and what is typically "black".

I'm sure you probably meant no offense by that, but some black SLers might read that thread and give it the side-eye. That's why I explained that there is no cookie-cutter "look" for us, because our genetic make up is so diverse and varied, that trying to put us in a "one size fits all" box, wouldn't make much sense, if you get what I'm trying to say.

As for black men - they are an entirely different topic when compared to how black women have been historically portrayed and perceived in our society. I can only speak personally when I say, when I see an avie such as yours, I can generally tell that it's not a black woman behind it. With that said - I have a friend who plays a black girl in SL, who is a white male who enjoys expressing his "feminine side". As not to offend (and I wasn't), he would often ask my opinion about what looks right and what doesn't; is this or that pushing the boundaries and so on. I appreciated his openness and willingness to listen to constructive advice.

So when I saw your thread I thought, he's making a black female avie, perhaps I can offer a tip or two. Who better to ask than a black woman right? I mean, Hello?! LOL

Anyway, that's it in a nutshell. Now if you are still offended, there is nothing I can do about that, but now you know the reason why I asked you those questions.

I wish there was an easy way to explain. But, we’ve chatted enough back and forth that you know how I feel. I’m just very confused by your repeated use of “stereotypical”. In my lifetime of experience, the more you talk about stereotypes (whether it’s “yours” or “other people’s”), the more you create division.

I personally would “never think about black stereotypes” when judging others. I’ve had too many friends of “every type”. 

I didn’t read your entire message until someone quoted it, thus the late response. 

Sorry I came off as so defensive, theoretically I’ve learned from this exchange. 

Edited March 27, 2018 by Love Zhaoying