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Firestorm v5.0.11

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4 minutes ago, Pamela Galli said:

 Well, you left all that part out didn’t you? 

Nope. 

Quote

 

Worst case, you can see some nasturtiums from a very respected creator in Fameshed for example, and they look perfect in the small display area. get them home into your region, and you end up with this https://gyazo.com/73f80cc08a4c4aab39fa9859d23066ed

 

Edit: Maybe my words were not clear, but I am quite disillusioned right now at just how bad this well respected creators plants are. And the demo was - especially in the case of these Fameshed displayed Chestnuts, invalid, fake and misleading. They were faulty from day 1 when you got them into your own sim. No Trunks. That is now intolerable with the FS changes.

4e1a307eb323c5f6fcb63d172ba32d96.thumb.jpg.4e9beb854ddf3e813f5e616ae7547d4b.jpg

Edited by Callum Meriman
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10 minutes ago, Callum Meriman said:

That is now intolerable with the FS changes

What changes would make LOD look worse?

Edited by Pamela Galli

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1 minute ago, Pamela Galli said:

What changes would make it would be worse?

The change that has made these demoed plants, this demoed house (you can see it in the background with the missing window) worse is cutting the default LOD from 4 to 2 to bring it closer to what the LL viewer does. 

Yes, we can all crank it up, but then nothing improves, we keep getting notecards with every object teaching us how to alter our LOD to make up for the creator not bothering to make low-LOD versions.

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Ah, do you had your LOD set on 4 when you saw the demo, but changed to 2 at home? Or the creator went to the trouble to remodel the LOD’s to improve them, uploaded, textured and set out the good model at Fameshed but did not replace the old one you later bought .

Edited by Pamela Galli

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4 minutes ago, Pamela Galli said:

Ah, do you had your LOD set on 4 when you saw the demo, but changed to 2 at home? Or the creator went to the trouble to remodel the LOD’s to improve them, uploaded, textured and set out the good model at Fameshed but did not replace the old one you later bought .

My LOD was on 4 when I demoed, but the chestnuts were faulty at 4. Now my LOD is at 2, and I will suffer the pain... it's worse. What you don't see in that picture is I have used the same creator's Alder around the chestnut to hide the missing trunk. Those alder are now completely gone. If I dial up to 4, the alder come back and the scene doesn't look so bad.

The demo on the Chestnut was always fake and misleading, even at 4 it broke up, but I worked around the faulty product to hide the broken mesh, now the workaround is broken.

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 I have found in addition to windows, trees and plants are incredibly difficult to make with good LOD. So I am not going to criticize anybody’s plants or trees.  Some people want to trade land impact for LoD, that’s their target market..  It is up to you to demo products at LOD factor two not four.   And be prepared for things to look different.

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1 minute ago, Pamela Galli said:

 I have found in addition to windows, trees and plants are incredibly difficult to make with good LOD. So I am not going to criticize anybody’s plants or trees.  Some people want to trade land impact for LoD, that’s their target market..  It is up to you to demo products at LOD factor two not four.   And be prepared for things to look different.

Now I will be, as Beq and the Firestorm team have made it known that 2 is the preferred number for them. Before then 4 was thought to be ok by pretty much everyone I would guess. The rules have changed, and I - as a creator of mesh - will force myself into the new rules so my own houses and furniture don't do this

Importantly Beq's great new additions allow us to look at the 4 LODS trivially, So now at Fameshed, with a Heart plant in a very restricted space, you can set the LOD to medium and see if it holds up as it would in your region. That tool wasn't there before. With this wonderful new tool, we still get the pain of dropping from 4 to 2, but this is for the greater long term good.

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On 1/30/2018 at 12:58 AM, Beq Janus said:

You are far more organised than I am. I barely know what my buildings are going to look like yet.

I saw you on the builder list but with so many names on there it wasn't easy to tell who was building THIS year LOL.   I am very happy with my first building but waiting for the upcoming definitive info before I get too far along. Supposedly that is coming VERY soon. 

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9 minutes ago, Callum Meriman said:

efore then 4 was thought to be ok by pretty much everyone I would guess

Not at all, this discussion has been going on since Mesh, right here in the forum at least.

 I’m not sure exactly with the default Firestorm LOD factor is/was but I am pretty sure it was not 4.

Also although the tool was not there before, the ability to cam out has been.

Edited by Pamela Galli
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Just now, Pamela Galli said:

Not at all, this discussion has been going on since Mesh, right here in the forum at least.

 I’m not sure exactly with the default Firestorm LOD factor is/was but I am pretty sure it was not 4.

I'm pretty heavy on the forums :P but I never noticed this discussion before.

But yes, the default was always 2. Most, (many?) people wound that up to 4 thanks to a large number of creator notecards that said "If you want to see my products at the best possible quality go into the debug menu and set the SuchAndSuchLod setting to 9001" (yes, a little exaggerated, but I am sure you have seen those notecards)

4 made the world look better, and we didn't know the cost. Beq's blog entry made it clear there is a real cost in this.

The recent FS change now warns you on first login that your LOD is too high if it's 4 and suggests you drop to 2. But if you are over 4 then it forces your settings back each time.

On the firestorm blog a number of furries are up in arms giving the poor FS team a lot of hate for this, these furries have ultimate gaming rigs and want the right to run 9001 LOD, and be damned to the nanny state.

I'm willing to live with the FS recommendation, I understand it's for the best for everyone, just as the complexity changes were.

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All well documented, Callum.

My point is that a demo was in fact supplied but you had somehow missed the information that LOD four is too high so that’s how you were viewing things.  Some creators create for people with their LOD‘s set to four, they’re not trying to be duplicitous.  So my advice stands: if there’s no demo don’t buy it  

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6 minutes ago, Pamela Galli said:

Not at all, this discussion has been going on since Mesh, right here in the forum at least.

 I’m not sure exactly with the default Firestorm LOD factor is/was but I am pretty sure it was not 4.

Also although the tool was not there before, the ability to cam out has been.

Pam is correct. The discussion about LOD setting levels has been talked about for a LONG while here on the forums. YOU are here on the forums all the time so if you were not paying attention it is not the Firestorm folk's problem. You can still set your LOD to four and it will stick (I did that yesterday by accident and made sure that it would stick at 2 as I wanted it to this morning).  

So yes, it is a BIG difference switching from LOD 4 to 2 and yes as I said  MANY times  a lot of things need to be tossed or "put away for close up shots" for us film and photo folks.  AT THE SAME TIME -- also being said on these forums often -- MY COMPUTER IS MUCH HAPPIER and running better and "I" am much happier with the change. 

I know the creator of your trees and while that creator has a well-known name you should not equate that with "well-respected" -- as creators that make mesh chatter a lot among themselves about "cr***y* LODs.   The folks that go to all the trouble TO make better mesh are the worst when it come to complaining about folks that don't. We just do it mostly in private LOL.    

One thing you MAY be able to do with both your flowers and plants is to make them LARGER. This will increase the land impact of course but it will also help withe the LOD viewing issues.  

Very few trees will hold up across a sim.  I have some old ones from LAQ that do; still look pretty good. They are the red dot in the screenshot and while very tiny in the distance they are still there.  That is about two-thirds of the way across the sim. They might be fine long but really, who needs them THAT long. 

image.png.7e7117385ba4e8409d1df66fee386063.png

 

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Just now, Pamela Galli said:

My point is that a demo was in fact supplied but you had somehow missed the information that LOD four is too high so that’s how you were viewing things.  Some creators create for people with their LOD‘s set to four, they’re not trying to be duplicitous.  So my advice stands: if there’s no demo don’t buy it  

I think you miss the point Pamela. Please read this next section carefully.

The demo of the Chestnut, from this respected unnamed garden centre, was at Fameshed. At Fameshed the area the demo was rezzed in had 4 metres of camera space. There was a wooden wall behind the rezzed tree that stopped viewing from a distance. At LOD 2 the tree's trunk decomposes at 5 metres.

I noticed the decomposition when I got it home and rezzed it, at LOD 4. But the demo was faulty, this Chestnut tree fails at 5 metres, the display was 4 metres.

Understand?

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1 minute ago, Callum Meriman said:

I think you miss the point Pamela. Please read this next section carefully.

The demo of the Chestnut, from this respected unnamed garden centre, was at Fameshed. At Fameshed the area the demo was rezzed in had 4 metres of camera space. There was a wooden wall behind the rezzed tree that stopped viewing from a distance. At LOD 2 the tree's trunk decomposes at 5 metres.

I noticed the decomposition when I got it home and rezzed it, at LOD 4. But the demo was faulty, this Chestnut tree fails at 5 metres, the display was 4 metres.

Understand?

Hint for the future in this case (I am assuming that there wasn't a model up on the H and G demo area) is that you can derender the wall behind (I have even derendered whole buildings and anything else needed so you can 'test'). But now you know anyway which plants to avoid. 

Another thought LOL as I type. 

Those of us that have been at LOD 2 for awhile need to remember that there are still plenty of folks viewing at 1.25 or 1.  :D.   Honestly, I sometimes turn my viewer down that low and it is still fine since I am in over-distance mode at LOD2, but we have to draw a line somewhere and for ME it is long distances at LOD 2. ( I may be a very VERY good girl and test at 1.25 for Fantasy Faire. That would be a "good" thing and certainly doable.) 

 

I think there has been some very good info come up for builders BECAUSE of the new Firestorm building tools and that is a GREAT THING. I hope that the Linden viewer incorporates those tools into their viewer. I doubt that they will ever set the default at 2 because that would cut out more folks that wouldn't be able to use SL because of their computer capabilities.

Choice is good and the folks that absolutely have to have their viewers at 8 or 16 CAN still set it that way every time.  A pain but possible. 

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3 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

I know the creator of your trees and while that creator has a well-known name you should not equate that with "well-respected" -- as creators that make mesh chatter a lot among themselves about "cr***y* LODs.   The folks that go to all the trouble TO make better mesh are the worst when it come to complaining about folks that don't. We just do it mostly in private LOL.  

I was trying to be gracious with the nomenclature "respected". In reality, her items have upset me quite a bit today, especially when I look at my other common use plants from GOD and Fanatik which hold up very well at a distance.

This change has opened my eyes wide, seriously wide. I am working on improving my mesh as a result (yes the simplified LODs /are/ hard), and I am redoing 4 sims of landscaping to remove or work around all this creator's plants. And using the new distance numbers exposed in the object tab of edit, this task is quite a bit easier.

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So I just did a test and I am patting myself on the back and ChinRey will be glad. This is me at 40 meters away or more from my finished work  on my building pad at 

 

LOD1  :D

And with that I am going to start my day with a gold starred crown on my head LOL.  

image.thumb.png.dfe9fb73dddede0ff783c5c1ed909ffe.png

Edited by Chic Aeon
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39 minutes ago, Callum Meriman said:

I think you miss the point Pamela. Please read this next section carefully.

The demo of the Chestnut, from this respected unnamed garden centre, was at Fameshed. At Fameshed the area the demo was rezzed in had 4 metres of camera space. There was a wooden wall behind the rezzed tree that stopped viewing from a distance. At LOD 2 the tree's trunk decomposes at 5 metres.

I noticed the decomposition when I got it home and rezzed it, at LOD 4. But the demo was faulty, this Chestnut tree fails at 5 metres, the display was 4 metres.

Understand?

So your point is what? Don’t bother with demos?

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2 hours ago, Pamela Galli said:

So your point is what? Don’t bother with demos?

I read his point as:  the seller can fix the demos.  So they can lie.  We have no way to know if the demo is the same as the product.

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But the Firestorm LoD data in the Build Tool works even when the "cam back till it collapses" approach was impractical, right? So everybody's happy now, right?

I don't know if it's coincidence or if the creator got the LoD religion from the Firestorm feature, but I received a nice update of some ivy groundcover overnight, which is supposed to degrade more gracefully with distance. It took me quite a few attempts to find where I'd rezzed that particular ivy, among all the other ivy groundcovers I have rezzed, so I haven't checked the details yet, but I've decided to be happy about this new "evidence" of how creators are responding to this new feature.

(Hey, at least I didn't deliver a speech to a joint session of Congress based on this. :P)

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39 minutes ago, anna2358 said:

I read his point as:  the seller can fix the demos.  So they can lie.  We have no way to know if the demo is the same as the product.

Well that’s possible, but in his case, the demo was not switched out, Callum just changed his LOD setting.

 However, why would a creator make a good quality demo, and not set it for sale, but instead sell a lower quality demo? Doesn’t make sense. 

 If buyers refused to buy without investigating a demo, it would solve most product problems and eliminate most surprises 

Edited by Pamela Galli

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20 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

But the Firestorm LoD data in the Build Tool works even when the "cam back till it collapses" approach was impractical, right? So everybody's happy now, right?

I don't know if it's coincidence or if the creator got the LoD religion from the Firestorm feature, but I received a nice update of some ivy groundcover overnight, which is supposed to degrade more gracefully with distance. It took me quite a few attempts to find where I'd rezzed that particular ivy, among all the other ivy groundcovers I have rezzed, so I haven't checked the details yet, but I've decided to be happy about this new "evidence" of how creators are responding to this new feature.

(Hey, at least I didn't deliver a speech to a joint session of Congress based on this. :P)

Fake news! :ph34r:

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Re imposters: I just realized what had been going wrong with a certain high LI, render-intensive Four Season Oak Tree when viewed from a distance: It looked perfectly dreadful, but it turns out the creator hadn't done anything wrong at all.

In an attempt to rein-in the rendering a bit, I'd set all those branch meshes to alpha-masking with a 128 threshold. Note that I set it for the branch meshes, aware that each branch had multiple faces. What I didn't realize was that one of those faces was used as an imposter, and as luck would have it, the texture on that face looked horrid at a 128 masking threshold.

With a little more experimentation (and a script to manipulate the PRIM_ALPHA_MODE_MASK on each face including the imposter) I settled on a threshold of 188 for the imposter and 88 for the others.

(I realize this has nothing to do with the thread topic. So spank me. You know you want to. :$)

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1 hour ago, Pamela Galli said:

Well that’s possible, but in his case, the demo was not switched out, Callum just changed his LOD setting.

 However, why would a creator make a good quality demo, and not set it for sale, but instead sell a lower quality demo? Doesn’t make sense. 

 If buyers refused to buy without investigating a demo, it would solve most product problems and eliminate most surprises 

And "I" thought the point was that the VENUE had changed things  -- for whatever reason as it didn't used to be this way at FaMESHed.  It could be in part that they have a "cam sim" and who know what things looked like depending on camming abilities. 

So YES, these new tools will help and I am certainly using them as a builder. I seldom actually BUY things (although I REALLY would have bought a TV camera instead of spending four days (not whole ones) on building it)  but I AM picky about the demo thing.  

So hopefully the folks that haven't been paying attention to LODs and PHYSICS (another thread) will decide they need too. 

THIS WOULD BE GOOD. 

 

PS. I am going to go back when FaMESHed opens and see what the lay of the land is. I remember at Christmas time there was a big demo area above. Of course creators aren't required to use it -- at least not in any event I have been a part of. 

 

 

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21 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

And "I" thought the point was that the VENUE had changed things  -- for whatever reason as it didn't used to be this way at FaMESHed

It’s not entirely clear, but what I got: He bought the rezzed tree at Fameshed, but says he could not cam out more than 4m to check. There was no separate demo. 

In any case, checking a demo may not eliminate all surprises but it will most.

 

Edited by Pamela Galli

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