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Firestorm v5.0.11

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5 hours ago, Aquila Kytori said:

For windows have you tried using imposter/billboards for the lower Lods ?

In the example below the high LoD mesh has a similar tri count (2000+) and Object radius (5.4m) as the window in Callums example above.

Instead of zeroing out the 3 lower Lods to give 3 tris in each of the 3 lower Lods slots I used 2 tris for the billboard and another 2 hidden tris to hold the 2 materials used in the high LoD mesh.

My Lod settings is set at 1.125. :

OK. Not pasting in your pretty pictures but on rereading I didn't do exactly this -- in my previous comment.

 

How do you designate a different texture for the lower LODs?  I remember LOTS of chatter on this when mesh was new and having a different texture for each LOD setting which at the time seemed to not be a good idea but they were talking about simpler objects on the whole.

 

So "I" at least would like some more details LOL  :SwingingFriends:

Sometimes you think we knowa more than we knowa :D.  

 

 

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2 hours ago, Pamela Galli said:

I would just point out that in my experience, for many windows not inset into a wall, LODs (excepting lowest), need top and sides because you can see the empty space there otherwise, even at a distance. I had to redo some windows like that.

Also, this is a huge window, and will not switch until it is at a great distance. Most windows are going to switch much closer, that’s why they can be tricky to get right.

I actually think that the 'enlarging the bounding box with a single vertices' method will work best for my somewhat problematic window.  I have noted that some big name designers simply use oversized (out of scale) windows to solve this issue but that just doesn't work for me. 

 

 

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20 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

OK. Not pasting in your pretty pictures but on rereading I didn't do exactly this -- in my previous comment.

 

How do you designate a different texture for the lower LODs?  I remember LOTS of chatter on this when mesh was new and having a different texture for each LOD setting which at the time seemed to not be a good idea but they were talking about simpler objects on the whole.

 

So "I" at least would like some more details LOL  :SwingingFriends:

Sometimes you think we knowa more than we knowa :D.  

 

 

You assign a material to a face that will be hidden on the high LOD but  expand into the billboard.

Edited by Pamela Galli
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38 minutes ago, Pamela Galli said:

You assign a material to a face that will be hidden on the high LOD but  expand into the billboard.

So you make a tiny triangle say  that would be inside the wall or on top of the window pane  on the high LOD and then in the lower LODs you make that face into a "pane" that shows and the other faces that you don't want any longer disappear via deleting loop cuts or merging vertices?   Is that the idea ?   LOL.   

OH YOU ARE SO SMART *wink*. TY.

 

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19 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

So you make a tiny triangle say  that would be inside the wall or on top of the window pane  on the high LOD and then in the lower LODs you make that face into a "pane" that shows and the other faces that you don't want any longer disappear via deleting loop cuts or merging vertices?   Is that the idea ?   LOL.   

OH YOU ARE SO SMART *wink*. TY.

 

Exactly, except every LOD level has to have the same number of materials, so you have to preserve  one face for each material ( usually 2 for a window). You can just select and delete unused faces.

 Every now and then some information does soak in to my brain. 

Edited by Pamela Galli
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One  way, once  you have UVed the lowest LOD and positioned the texture, is after upload, to drag the texture to the correct faces.

I don’t know what you mean about being baked on etc.

Edited by Pamela Galli

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52 minutes ago, Pamela Galli said:

Exactly, except every LOD level has to have the same number of materials, so you have to preserve  one face for each material ( usually 2 for a window). You can just select and delete unused faces.

 Every now and then some information does soak in to my brain. 

Well my problematic windows only have one material. I think I have the idea. When I get down with the infamous TV studio camera from hell (actually it has gone just fine, however NOT something I was enthused about making) I will test that out on the windows. Would be good to get things working better.  The rest is fine; just the impressive many paned and many of them windows that are an issue.

 

Thanks.

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10 hours ago, anna2358 said:

I'm feeling very chastened about my Octagon Dome now.  It does just the same as Callum's house.  But we WILL improve it.  Just glad it was never offered for sale.

One of the hardest things to deal with is the LOW and LOWEST LOD models. The current accounting puts a comparatively high cost per triangle on those. Inside the code, the LOWEST LOD is often referred to as the IMPOSTER so the original intent was clear. The problem with imposters in Mesh (as opposed to the avatar ones) is that they fail the "volume test.". They are by definition two dimensional and only work well for objects that are typically only seen from one direction. Ideal for walls and windows and roofs especially when combined with normal maps. Sometimes the "cross" imposter, constructed of two imposters at 90 degrees like a child's cardboard cutout figure can work. I tried that originally for my lamp but it looked awful so I slipped back to a slightly higher triangle model.

I am reassured from the information that we have had from the Lab so far that any changes that they make will definitely make this tricky aspect more accommodating. We're never going to get big budgets for the LOWEST LOD that would be self defeating, but having a pre-defined number of triangles that we get for free or built into the cost would be a massive boon for us.

 

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7 hours ago, Chic Aeon said:

A builder friend of mine was chatting with me the other day about who's sim to pick for Fantasy Faire. Personally, I don't think the style I am making is going to work for him, but he did say something like,  'well, at least I know it will be low lag with good LODs and plenty of room" and he is right on that.  My first building can been seen ALL the way across the sim and is 57 I think so I am very happy with that

You are far more organised than I am. I barely know what my buildings are going to look like yet.

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7 hours ago, Callum Meriman said:

Just to be clear I wasn't picking on that home creator, he does beautiful homes, This tool has just been a huge eye opener to me, along the same lines as complexity was to my outfit. I could have also used this other item that has used LOD abuse, a Chestnut from the number one garden shop in SL (unnamed). More than 12 metres and the trunk disappears. (I coloured the link purple, but the rest of the trunk is the same, zeroed out LODS)

And I think that is the point. This was never meant to be a witch hunt. There are good reasons for zapping LODs, there are also bad reasons. As a designer, we have to consider where our items will be seen from typically and what the expectation will be. then we can choose whether to invest time and LI in the LOD models. These new tools were all about giving back some of the inworld building experience that, as builders, in particular, we lost with Mesh, letting us see our creations without fiddling around, and to find out how they will look to others as well.

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4 hours ago, Chic Aeon said:

How do you designate a different texture for the lower LODs?  I remember LOTS of chatter on this when mesh was new and having a different texture for each LOD setting which at the time seemed to not be a good idea but they were talking about simpler objects on the whole.

While Aquila makes her pretty illustrated explanation which I am 99% certain she is doing ;-) the answer is quite simple. have a single hidden triangle in each of the non-imposter LOD models that holds the imposter texture.

Thus the window might have 2 materials as a model, add a 3rd material and assign one triangle only, keep the triangle hidden (scale does not matter). When you create the imposter LOD models, you have the opposite task. You will need to retain 2 tiny hidden triangles for the original modelling materials and then the 2 large triangles for the imposter rectangle.

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4 hours ago, Beq Janus said:

Thus the window might have 2 materials as a model, add a 3rd material and assign one triangle only, keep the triangle hidden (scale does not matter). When you create the imposter LOD models, you have the opposite task. You will need to retain 2 tiny hidden triangles for the original modelling materials and then the 2 large triangles for the imposter rectangle.

I have just realized, as a relative newcomer to this LOD business, that my hidden quad is wasting a triangle!  Doh!  Blender thinking, not LOD thinking - every triangle counts.

In Blender we try always to work in quads, triangles are bad - if nothing else they break the edge-loops, but this is the exception because it is a data item, not a visual item.

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The bottom line, as always: buyers are responsible for checking out demos. No demo, no purchase should be everyone’s rule. Otherwise you are just gambling you will like what you buy off MP. 

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15 minutes ago, Pamela Galli said:

The bottom line, as always: buyers are responsible for checking out demos. No demo, no purchase should be everyone’s rule. Otherwise you are just gambling you will like what you buy off MP. 

If only we could get jewelry makers to get on board with this demo thing.  Jewelry is about the only item that I can never get demos of and it is also the one item that is likely to have LOD issues and/or high CI values.  Maybe that's exactly why they don't provide demos.

*sigh*

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 Jewelry buyers might start messaging creators and asking for demos, letting them know why they are not buying their no demo products. 

Edited by Pamela Galli
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11 hours ago, Chic Aeon said:

So you make a tiny triangle say  that would be inside the wall or on top of the window pane  on the high LOD and then in the lower LODs you make that face into a "pane" that shows and the other faces that you don't want any longer disappear via deleting loop cuts or merging vertices?   Is that the idea ? 

Each of LoD models has to contain the same list of materials as all the others.

If you are adding an extra hidden triangle in the High LoD model to contain the mateiral that will be used for the billboard/imposter model, then likewise  the billboard model has to have hidden tris to contain the material/s used in the High LOD mesh.

When creating the Billboard model there is no need for  "deleting loop cuts or merging vertices", simply delete them all and replace with the required number of  extra hidden tris. 1 for each material that is use in the other LoDs.

In the example above the window mesh used 2 materials. A third was added to hold the material that is used for the billboard texture.

5a70a53e80397_HighLoD.png.23a8080f1879313ed0cdf55a6b8c55cb.png

 

The imposter, a simple quad, has 2 extra tris added to hold the materials used in the High LoD model.

5a70a57810347_BillboardLoD.png.beedccc51d404defd544caafbf1e15b7.png

I'm sure you understand all this by now but anyways it may be usefull for someone else. :)

 

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2 hours ago, Aquila Kytori said:

Each of LoD models has to contain the same list of materials as all the others.

If you are adding an extra hidden triangle in the High LoD model to contain the mateiral that will be used for the billboard/imposter model, then likewise  the billboard model has to have hidden tris to contain the material/s used in the High LOD mesh.

When creating the Billboard model there is no need for  "deleting loop cuts or merging vertices", simply delete them all and replace with the required number of  extra hidden tris. 1 for each material that is use in the other LoDs.

In the example above the window mesh used 2 materials. A third was added to hold the material that is used for the billboard texture.

5a70a53e80397_HighLoD.png.23a8080f1879313ed0cdf55a6b8c55cb.png

 

The imposter, a simple quad, has 2 extra tris added to hold the materials used in the High LoD model.

5a70a57810347_BillboardLoD.png.beedccc51d404defd544caafbf1e15b7.png

I'm sure you understand all this by now but anyways it may be usefull for someone else. :)

 

Thanks. Lovely photos.

I did actually get it from Pam's answer  -- at least I think I did and I was going to do just what you pictured. But still deep in TV Cameraland (base all done, textured and uploaded. Now to get the camera part baked and uploaded too.  

Thanks to you both. Sure this will help lots of folks. Unfortunately it is kind of buried in the FS post :D.  A good reason why folks should read EVERYTHING or at least cycle through the screenshots. :D.

 

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3 minutes ago, Pamela Galli said:

Well Chic, do you get it now? xD

I actually understood it from what you said :D . 

But Aquila always has the prettiest pictures. Mine were all in my head.    I will likely report when I get my problem window tested, maybe on a NEW thread with a better title and link back to this one :D.

Meanwhile back to the camera ^^.  

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4 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

But Aquila always has the prettiest pictures

Yes, we should put them all in a book!

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22 hours ago, Pamela Galli said:

The bottom line, as always: buyers are responsible for checking out demos. No demo, no purchase should be everyone’s rule. Otherwise you are just gambling you will like what you buy off MP. 

Sadly, this demo rule doesn't hold up for plants, demos are *never* available for plants, best you can hope for is a rez in world. Worst case, you can see some nasturtiums from a very respected creator in Fameshed for example, and they look perfect in the small display area. get them home into your region, and you end up with this:

https://gyazo.com/73f80cc08a4c4aab39fa9859d23066ed

Until we had these new firestorm tools we didn't know just how bad a plant was until it was in the sim and being used. This change has destroyed the landscaping of 1 full sim, and 2 homesteads as this creators plants are now all deforming to 2 triangles at 10 meters. Pretty much 100% of this creators items are broken, some worse than others. But I am hopeful the creator will learn and do the right thing and fix her LODs properly in future plants.

Tens of Thousands of lindens wasted with this one creator. Not to mention the many hours of work landscaping that will need replacing all the broken plants. Assuming I can even find replacements.

 

Edit: Yeah, this is depressing, to see whole sims broken. :( Has to be done, but Ugh, the pain.

Edited by Callum Meriman
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1 hour ago, Callum Meriman said:

Sadly, this demo rule doesn't hold up for plants, demos are *never* available for plants, best you can hope for is a rez in world. 

That IS the demo. The rule holds for anything — no demo, no buy.

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Just now, Pamela Galli said:

That IS the demo. The rule holds for anything — no demo, no buy.

Yes, and it's a fake, incorrect, misleading demo.

The LOD won't break up in Fameshed as you need to be 5 meters from it due to the layout of the event. The LOD holds up then.

Put it in your garden and you'll find it's no good at 10 meters.

You think this is acceptable? I don't. The demo didn't show it as a normal person would reasonably expect to use it.

And that's gotten worse now LOD is halved.

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1 minute ago, Callum Meriman said:

Yes, and it's a fake, incorrect, misleading demo.

The LOD won't break up in Fameshed as you need to be 5 meters from it due to the layout of the event. The LOD holds up then.

Put it in your garden and you'll find it's no good at 10 meters.

You think this is acceptable? I don't. The demo didn't show it as a normal person would reasonably expect to use it.

And that's gotten worse now LOD is halved.

 Well, you left all that part out didn’t you? 

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