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With all the problems that mesh bodies cause cause, I'm curious to know what's so special about mesh bodies that would cause people to jump through hoops in an effort to get things looking right with clothes on.

Mesh clothes can be excellent. There is no doubt about that, but why mesh bodies? Why buy a head from here, feet from there, torso from somewhere else, boobs from goodness knows where, etc.? Or why buy all-in-one mesh bodies, knowing that clothes are going to be a problem? After all, mesh doesn't produce better looking faces.

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the bodies look quite good on beaches.. but that;s about it..

Clothed everybody looks the same, you can't see if one wears a 5k horrible beta body or  0 L$ own system creation.

The heads... well.. i hate the most male ones, when you have seen one you seen nearly all, every guy looks like the other, except the tags above their head.

I don't mean identical, but can see the same lines :same chin, mouth, eyes, noses.. like one big family that had incestuous relations for 5 generations. And why all mouthcorners have to be down i never understand.. ..

don't get me wrong... i have 4 or 5 bodies i use, it's not all negative, but using it as standard all day and in all situations asks inventivity and work..

If/when i am sure not to go for a beach visit. i mostly wear my system body, less work and lot faster rezzing without missing hands feet or worse..

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I love my Maitreya body. It looks great on a (nude)beach and with swimwear. Clothes have never been a problem. I have about 60 Maitreya outfits and I can change outfits with just one mouseclick.

For system layers, prim skirts and other mesh clothes I wear the system body and then again I change outfits with one mouseclick.
And I never jump through hoops....:womanlol:

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Mesh bodies have much more complex geometries than the standard body (which is also a mesh -- but a much simpler one, with the huge advantage of being widely standardized in SL).

With that additional geometry, the mesh bodies can be much smoother, and have room for many times the texture density. This is one reason that crowded scenes rez-in much slower than they used to: there's easily ten times as much data to transfer. Ultimately this is also why the Lab had to switch to the faster but more costly CDN approach to streaming scene assets.

Not all mesh bodies are the same, by a long shot. Some are just stupidly complex compared to others, and yet don't look as good. And it's not only the static surface but the quality of rigging: the single most expensive mesh body (you know who) is very bad -- much worse than cheaper competitors -- at deforming hideously with normal animations. It's really garbage, but it looks good stretched out on a beach.

Anyway, it's completely crazy to buy a mesh body right now, pre-Bento. It's guaranteed to be totally obsolete in, what? a couple months at most? That's especially true of mesh hands, feet, and heads (but mesh heads really squick me out anyway).

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Ina Fairport wrote:

I love my Maitreya body. It looks great on a (nude)beach and with swimwear. Clothes have never been a problem. I have about 60 Maitreya outfits and I can change outfits with just one mouseclick.

 

For system layers, prim skirts and other mesh clothes I wear the system body and then again I change outfits with one mouseclick.

And I never jump through hoops....:womanlol:

Maybe you don't have to jump through hoops because you're buying all the clothes for it from the same vendor that made the body. If that's so, you're extremely limited - stuck with one manufacturer. And, of course, it's a perfect reason to ask, why? Especially since the body doesn't look any better.

Alright, I did wander through some beaches and tried to spot the difference. Clearly there are some. I saw grotesquely muscled guys that couldn't have looked like that with the system body. And I can understand things like protruding nipples being part of the body instead of stick-ons lol. But it seems such a lot problems for so little benefit. Certainly there are no facial benefits in terms of 'good looking'.

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Maybe it's time for a retro craze :) My store has certainly become retro and people still buy :) It amazes me that certain things still sell. It's almost embarrassing that some of the stuff is still on sale. So perhaps we could do with retro bodies too, and escape all the problems that advancements brought.

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It's topics like these that remind me that some people will live in the past until they're forced into the present. As long as possible.It's always a frustrated, defensive argumentative, discussion trying to belittle mesh. The truth is, if you're capable of adapting and learning new things, mesh is far more advanced and overall better than default monstrosities from 2002-2003.

Also, you must have been joking when you said mesh doesn't produce better faces. I'm so glad to have found a beautiful mesh head with NO wrinkles, no deformities, many skins, makeup , accessories, expressions, etc. The one thing I will never miss, is being unable to edit wrinkles out of the default system avatar's face. It was impossible. 

 Mesh bodies and mesh heads become a lot less stressful when you choose one that has a high level of support from creators. Then it's almost the same as buying clothes for the default avatars. Some of the mesh bodies and heads out there right now have thousands of clothing items available to choose from. Only difference is that mesh is far more beautiful. v:

The benefit of mesh, in my opinion, is not looking like crap. Finally people from other programs won't avoid SL, using the excuse " The avatars were so ugly there."

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I'm not trying to belittle mesh. Mesh is terrific for objects and clothes. And I'm not trying to belittle it for bodies. I'm simply asking why people accept jumping through hoops to clothe their mesh bodies when I see no obvious benefit to them. If there are real benefits for mesh bodies, please tell me what they are. That's the reason I asked the question. I'm curious because I see posts and chats about the problems people find to make them look right in clothes, that's all.

There is no need to be so defensive about it. If you know of compelling reasons for mesh bodies, please tell me what they are, instead of posting what you did, which was merely an objection to being asked. My post asks why mesh bodies, that's all. It doesn't make any judgements about them. I'm not being argumentative, as you suggested. You're the only one who has been argumentative in this thread - so far ;)

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AnimalChi wrote:

Also, you must have been joking when you said mesh doesn't produce better faces. I'm so glad to have found a beautiful mesh head with NO wrinkles, no deformities, many skins, makeup , accessories, expressions, etc. The one thing I will never miss, is being unable to edit wrinkles out of the default system avatar's face. It was impossible. 

 Mesh bodies and mesh heads become a lot less stressful when you choose one that has a high level of support from creators. Then it's almost the same as buying clothes for the default avatars. Some of the mesh bodies and heads out there right now have thousands of clothing items available to choose from.

You added those paragraphs while I was replying to your original post.

 

First paragraph:

I wasn't joking about mesh being unable to produce better faces - I meant prettier for girls, and more handsome for men. I do see lots of faces, and I can guarantee that I've never ever seen more gorgeous faces than were, and are, achieved with the system body and user-created skins. More gorgeous ones just don't exist. I'm speaking about female faces, because I'm a man. I'm not saying that mesh bodies can't have equally gorgeous faces, but I am saying that they can't make faces that are even more gorgeous. Of course, both body types have mostly not so gorgeous faces :)

 

Second paragraph:

You said something pretty much the same as was said earlier in another post. That, as long as you buy clothes from same business that created the mesh body, it's ok. My response to that was, and still is, that you are stuck with one creator's clothes, and that doesn't sound very good to me. In the past, a girl would see a dress that someone else was wearing, ask where she got it from, and go and buy one like it. From your reply, and the similar one earlier, it doesn't seem that that is possible with mesh bodies. That would be ok if you, or someone else, would tell me what benefits mesh bodies have. I am genuinely curious.

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Having a small selection for the specific mesh bodies and mesh heads is only a problem for now. The selection is growing, and very talented scripters and developers have added applier huds that make applying clothes extremely simple. I've already got far more options than I could ever use with the current selection of mesh clothes for the main mesh bodies like Maitreya, Slink, etc. Maybe people won't understand this until they begin their own search.

I've watched many popular mesh avatars explode, creating a market full of products for them, by multiple creators. Search the Kemono avatar, Snaggletooth Kobold avatar, Maitreya lara body, Slink/physique bodies, Hour glass body, Avatar 2.0, and so on, and you'll see that creators have made so many items for all of them. In fact, some of the "big time" creators actually include clothes that come rigged for multiple popular mesh bodies, all in one pack. Example, a shirt that has 5 sizes xxs,xs,s,m,l and then rigged sizes for mesh body1, meshbody2, meshbody3. I honestly don't know how people are struggling to make mesh work when there are currently so many options.

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Ok, but what benefits are there to mesh bodies? You mentioned being able to not have facial wrinkles, but there are no facial wrinkles with the system body.

I'm genuinely curious as to why people buy mesh bodies, when they are unable to simply go round the clothes shops and buy clothes that they fancy.

 

ETA:

I did see one thing on the beaches. I mentioned it already - hugely muscular male bodies. In fact, I can accept that normally muscular male bodies would also be better in mesh. I can also accept that women prefer nipples that are part of the body, and not just painted areas or stick-ons. But after that, I'm at a loss.

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Phil Deakins wrote:


Ina Fairport wrote:

I love my Maitreya body. It looks great on a (nude)beach and with swimwear. Clothes have never been a problem. I have about 60 Maitreya outfits and I can change outfits with just one mouseclick.

 

For system layers, prim skirts and other mesh clothes I wear the system body and then again I change outfits with one mouseclick.

And I never jump through hoops....:womanlol:

Maybe you don't have to jump through hoops because you're buying all the clothes for it from the same vendor that made the body. If that's so, you're extremely limited - stuck with one manufacturer. And, of course, it's a perfect reason to ask, why? Especially since the body doesn't look any better.

Alright, I did wander through some beaches and tried to spot the difference. Clearly there are some. I saw grotesquely muscled guys that couldn't have looked like that with the system body. And I can understand things like protruding nipples being part of the body instead of stick-ons lol. But it seems such a lot problems for so little benefit. Certainly there are no facial benefits in terms of 'good looking'.

No, I am not extremely limited in choosing my clothes and no I dont buy my clothes from the same vendor that made the body...I dont even like them. There are many creators who make perfect clothes for mesh bodies.

 

I love my mesh body and you dont...np   :)

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Ina Fairport wrote:

I love my mesh body and you dont...np  
:)

Hey! How can I not love your mesh body? I haven't seen it.

I'm not against mesh bodies. I am only curious why some people prefer them when, from what I've read in posts and heard in chats, clothes can be problematic.

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for males the choice is very limited.. for both clothes and bodies .... And worst part is ... two of the most used mesh bodies don't follow the curves from SL avatars. So all previous mesh clothes, or the so called "standard" looks awful, gaps at the front and  buttsand sides sticking out several inches.

I won't even start about the huge muscled guys from the brand that started it...omg... so ugly you would get nightmares... like lumps of clay hanging on your body.

And no.. don't come with adjusting the shape because that's not the problem, the body is.

alpha's can partly help it, but it's of course just stupid to hide 80 % of your body to prevent it poking out everywhere..

The two newer bodies are a lot better. Nearly all standard sized stuff will fit, and one of them has also a own line of clothes.

The part i read at one that there are good heads for male is in my opinion living in a dream world. It's just BAD in capitals. Clones and "plastic phantastic" barbie/ken looks. If there is a good mesh head around?...i did NOT see it yet.

 

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No wrinkles you say? Welp, Here's my last crack at attempting to explain why mesh is considered "smoother/ less wrinkley/ more beautiful/ etc. The benefits, as I said, are being less ugly. But this may be a case of " beauty in the eye of the beholder."

p><p><img src=

 

 And by the way, people  will be able to "simply go around to clothes shops" for mesh clothes too. They can do it now, but it's not as dominant as the default system clothes is yet. Remember that mesh is newer and hasn't established the same foundation that the default system clothes (Which has been here since the beginning of time) has yet. As a specific mesh body becomes more popular, the clothes selection for that avatar grows.

 

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Why?  You ask why?  As if vanity alone is not enough reason.

> but why mesh bodies? 
Oh, several reasons.  When I sit down in pants,  I have a butt shaped like a butt and not a brick.

> Why buy a head from here, feet from there, torso from somewhere else, boobs from goodness knows where, etc.?
I have a head as a recent addition but other than that everything else came from one place.

> Or why buy all-in-one mesh bodies, knowing that clothes are going to be a problem?
Clothes are not a problem any more.

> After all, mesh doesn't produce better looking faces.
I disagree but I understand your point.  I will never have to try to hide the corners and edges that deform my nose.  Still, I have to give up a lot to get that one advantage.

 

In the end, the money and effort are worth it to me. 

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AnimalChi wrote:

 And by the way, people  will be able to "simply go around to clothes shops" for mesh clothes too. They can do it now, but it's not as dominant as the default system clothes is yet. Remember that mesh is newer and hasn't established the same foundation that the default system clothes (Which has been here since the beginning of time) has yet. As a specific mesh body becomes more popular, the clothes selection for that avatar grows. 

You're being way too generous with the mesh avatar creators. If they could only bring themselves to crank back the greed just a notch and open up their products to mod perm, there'd be much better and (especially) more interoperable (scripted) mesh content for their bodies. But no, god forbid they might lose a t-shirt sale.

I'll grant that, with all those extra polygons, it's much easier to make attractive skins compared to the crazy tricks the good creators had to play on the system avatar. Hence mesh heads have a huge advantage in looking good in still photos, and I agree they do. For anything more than a snapshot, though, they're freaky as hell without Bento. It's Uncanny Valley in spades.

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AnimalChi wrote:

Also, you must have been joking when you said mesh doesn't produce better faces. I'm so glad to have found a beautiful mesh head with NO wrinkles, no deformities, many skins, makeup , accessories, expressions, etc. The one thing I will never miss, is being unable to edit wrinkles out of the default system avatar's face. It was impossible. 

 Mesh bodies and mesh heads become a lot less stressful when you choose one that has a high level of support from creators. Then it's almost the same as buying clothes for the default avatars. Some of the mesh bodies and heads out there right now have thousands of clothing items available to choose from. Only difference is that mesh is far more beautiful. v:

Mesh doesn't allow you to have individual faces.

Technology wise there is no reason for this.

1. The "standard" SL body is also mesh. Every last thing you see in SL is a mesh. Mesh is nothing special. It is just LL allowing us to upload more 3D-models than they originally included in 2003. Sculpty is just another way to load a mesh into the scene - that has a preset number of polygons regardless and loads via the texture-loading-system.

2. The ONLY reason the mesh heads don't respond to shape dials is that somebody at LL did not imagine we would use fitmesh for... fashion... because... I have no idea...

But that said... the choice was made, and the sliders for the face don't work on mesh heads...

Which gives them a MAJOR flaw in terms of customizability, leaving their users looking like a multi-shaded clone army.

Basically take all the storm-troopers in Star Wars (a look a like clone reference most people should get) and spray paint them in varyins shades where 99% of those shades fall within a narrow range of peach... Now tell them apart. With only looking at the helmets.

- The human brain, and the wasp brain, are both hardwired to recognize individuality by the face. So both species have evolved to have amazing variety in faces. Even some other animals, like crows, have evolved to be able to see and distinguish our faces as a key survival trait for living alongside us. And Mesh heads remove that - remove the key thing we have evolved to determine if you are an individual or a carrot juicer...

 

I'm with you all the way on mesh bodies... but not on the faces. I wish I could be, but LLs set the wrong toggle on those, and removed what for me is the entire point of evenhacing a face. I see no more reason to wear a mesh head than to just rez a sphere-sprim over my head. Actually since the spehere prim is kind of not a thing to do - it would make me more of an individual than a mesh head would... :)

I'll take my lowr poly wrinkles on the head, but ability to be unique, over the lack of any individuality that a mesh head imposes. But I will shake my claws at LLs for failing us on fitmesh and faces while I do it...

 

 

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Phil Deakins wrote:

I'm
not
against mesh bodies. I am only curious why some people prefer them when, from what I've read in posts and heard in chats, clothes can be problematic.

Clothes used to be a problem. But these days if you're using one of the top 4 brands (Solarian, Maitreya, Belleza, Slink) fitmesh clothing is pretty easy to come by. And if you're on an offbrand, applier clothing is usually also easy to come by unless you're on one of the very rare brands that excludes Omega.

I've actually started getting notecards from shops saying they are dropping support for standard sizes. Just a few at present, but its beginning to go that way.

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Phil Deakins wrote:

 

I did see one thing on the beaches. I mentioned it already - hugely muscular male bodies. In fact, I can accept that normally muscular male bodies would also be better in mesh. I can also accept that women prefer nipples that are part of the body, and not just painted areas or stick-ons. But after that, I'm at a loss.

I just did 80 screenshotf of bosoms of various mesh bodies at different sizes. This reminds me to add in screenshots of the same angles / sizes for Linden Lab's mesh body...

- Clothes or unclothed, the difference is striking and motivating towards getting one of these things.

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:


Phil Deakins wrote:

I'm
not
against mesh bodies. I am only curious why some people prefer them when, from what I've read in posts and heard in chats, clothes can be problematic.

Clothes used to be a problem. But these days if you're using one of the top 4 brands (Solarian, Maitreya, Belleza, Slink) fitmesh clothing is pretty easy to come by. And if you're on an offbrand, applier clothing is usually also easy to come by unless you're on one of the very rare brands that excludes Omega.

I've actually started getting notecards from shops saying they are dropping support for standard sizes. Just a few at present, but its beginning to go that way.

Applier, omega, Bento? Just a few foreign words. I don't believe I'm alone here (or perhaps I am) but it does seem like loads of research and learning and money. It's like you need to be either very vain, or geeky and enjoy the challenge. And then maybe it will all be better in a year.. and maybe it's best to wait....for Bento. 

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AnimalChi wrote:

No wrinkles you say? Welp, Here's my last crack at attempting to explain why mesh is considered "smoother/ less wrinkley/ more beautiful/ etc. The benefits, as I said, are being less ugly. But this may be a case of " beauty in the eye of the beholder."

p><p><img src=

.

I see what you mean about the wrinkles. But they're not wrinkles. They are corners/smooth edges. And I don't believe they have to be like that. I've never had such corners, and there are many very beautiful faces without them, that are not mesh.

In the first picture pair, it's the skin that shows them. If all system bodied avatars looked like that, there wouldn't be any beautiful faces.

In the second picture pair, they don't exist. AND, although not exactly beautiful, the system face is much better looking than the mesh face :) But, as you said, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Right now, I'm looking at a system body with a library skin and, whilst not absolutely perfect, it's much better looking than any of the the pictures you showed. You may not be able to get rid of those corners with system sliders, but they can be overcome by skin design.

I'm still waiting to hear some actual benefits of mesh bodies. I accept that what you've said is good for you, and probably many others, but it's not an actual benefit. It's just saying that clothes aren't as big a problem as I've understood them to be. What are the positive benefits of mesh bodies?

 

ETA:

On reflection, I think I've read some benefits in this thread. I actually wrote 2 of them - muscle-shaped muscles on men, and nipples on women. I think it was Pussycat who also pointed out bums that actually look like bums when sitting. So, all in all, I accept that mesh bodies are actually beneficial. Thank you all for your inputs. I might even do some expertimenting for myself.

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Christina Ponnier wrote:

Applier, omega, Bento? Just a few foreign words. I don't believe I'm alone here (or perhaps I am) but it does seem like loads of research and learning and money. It's like you need to be either very vain, or geeky and enjoy the challenge. And then maybe it will all be better in a year.. and maybe it's best to wait....for Bento. 

For your sake I hope you are kidding...

Omega: a common brand of applier - this lets clothing makers just make an Omega applier and be sure almost any mesh body can use the product.

Applier: an item that applies a texture to something.

Bento: you revealed you already know this one.

 

Anyone can learn everything anyone needs to know about mesh bodies in a matter of minutes. It is a trivial and simple amount of information. Life is learning. That is true about everything, not just SL.

 

I don't buy this common excuse I keep hearing about how hard it would be to learn this or that thing, because I cannot see that learning things should ever be a reason to hold back on any choice in life. Not just mesh, not just SL, but anything in life.

The only legitimate response when faced with something you don't know is to ask where and how to learn it, and then proceed.

For mesh bodies, the answer to that is often here:

http://meshbodyaddicts.com/mesh-body-tutorials/

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