Mesh your SL Avatar - A Solution to Clothing just fitting

[Medhue Simoni]

I'm sure that some people have noticed, that a fitted mesh body works much better with clothing rigged for them, than the SL default avatar. That said, there are many issues with fitted mesh bodies. The reason clothing fits better on a fitted mesh body, is because both the bodies and the clothing are using the fitted mesh system, hence they are morphing the same way.

What I am proposing, is taking your custom SL default avatar, that you adjusted the sliders for the head to look the way you want, and turning that SL avatar into a fitted mesh avatar. So, it is still the SL avatar, but mesh. You can still use all the same textures and skins for them. The downside is that you won't have SL facial expressions anymore, but you will have working eyes, with eyelids and blinking, and a working jaw. Oh, and of course, you won't be able to use most of the default clothing, or masks.

The body would be the default size initially tho, and you would need to customize that when you get the mesh avatar. Doing the avatar this way tho, will make it so clothing will fit about as perfect for almost any size, as possible. Again, this works because both the mesh body and the mesh clothing are using the exact same morphing system, so they can match exactly, unlike the SL default and fitted mesh.

The real issue is cost. The time to create all these mesh avatars would be significant, but I really do think it is possible to get that cost down to a range that most could easily swallow. Let's imagine the cost to MESH YOUR AVATAR was only 2k lindens. How many do you think would MESH THEIR AVATAR?

For clothing creators, it would be many times simpler to rig their clothing, and they'd only be rigging for 1 size, but it would fit every size. I already sell weights for mesh clothing, and I could do the same for these avatars.

So, I'm just kind of wondering. How many think this is a good idea? Is it worth it?

[Ren Toxx]

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Medhue Simoni wrote: [...] So, I'm just kind of wondering. How many think this is a good idea? Is it worth it?

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Maybe you should ask the creators of the EBody. While perhaps not exactly the same idea, it sounds close enough.

[Medhue Simoni]

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Ren Toxx wrote:

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Medhue Simoni wrote: [...] So, I'm just kind of wondering. How many think this is a good idea? Is it worth it?

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Maybe you should ask the creators of the

EBody

. While perhaps not exactly the same idea, it sounds close enough.

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Well, that's kind of the opposite of what I'm talking about, as far as mesh avatars. My thought is to simplify things. Have efficient avatars, that you just wear and go. Avatars that are easy to find clothing that fits. Something that works seemlessly with existing skin textures, and no need to match anything.

Heck, maybe I'm wrong tho. Maybe women enjoy all those options and playing around with their avatar. I'm a guy, so I could very well be thinking about this all wrong. If hands and feet are the problem, I could easily create new hands and feet, and match them to fit the skin textures.

Oh, and technically, with the testing I've done, I don't see any need to alpha out parts of the mesh body, because the weights can be so precise, that there is no need to hide any skin. I really don't understand why those mesh bodies have all those alpha options, as they should work exactly the same as what I tested. Bad weights are the only reason to have those alphas. That wouldn't be a problem with clothing made for these avatars I'm talking about, cause the clothing creators would be getting those weights directly from me, or whomever else might make these avatars.

Plus, with these mesh bodies, they don't take advantage of the extra materials that meshes have, and this is because the SL heads don't have theses features. So, with a full mesh avatar, your skin can look many times better, and eyes.

[Nova Convair]

That could make me wear a mesh body. 

The mesh that is available at the moment I'm not interested in for the reasons you posted.

I have seen quite some avatars lately that are obviously overburdened and wear non matching mesh bodies and clothes. So there is probably some demand. On the other hand: they don't care or don't see it

[Medhue Simoni]

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Nova Convair wrote:

That could make me wear a mesh body. 

The mesh that is available at the moment I'm not interested in for the reasons you posted.

I have seen quite some avatars lately that are obviously overburdened and wear non matching mesh bodies and clothes. So there is probably some demand. On the other hand: they don't care or don't see it

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That's encouraging.

Now, because I do quite a bit of rigging for clothing designers, and I have some connnection with big designers, I kind of hear the issues that they talk about. Although those mesh bodies do look very good, they add more and more work to the clothing designer's list. The first thing said to me, when I proposed this to 1 of the larger designers was, "you mean I have to rig for another body?". This is my point too, that on top of having all these systems, like Standard Sizes, and Fitted mesh, now they have all these bodies to create for. These mesh bodies can be vastly different from the default too. I understand that people want to be creative, but there is a limit to how much they are stressing the clothing designers. It's nearly impossible to be profitable if you are spending days rigging just 1 clothing items for 8 different avatars. It reaches the realm of ridiculousness.

That said, I really think the problem with this idea, is getting people to mesh their avatars. I'm sure I could get the designers on board, but they need an audience to sell to, and prove the need for it.

[MariMoons]

 

 I'll pay you 2k to mesh my body & skin

[Medhue Simoni]

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MariMoons wrote:

 

 I'll pay you 2k to mesh my body & skin

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Good to know! If we can get enough people to start it. I'm sure it will catch on.

I already sell a set of weights for classically weighted clothing, and for fitted mesh clothing. What somewhat surprised me, is all the designers buying it. I knew rigging avatars and clothing isn't easy, but I never expected so many people buying my weighted bodysuits. I'll likely just update that pack with my avatar weights, and a rigged avatar for them to test on.

[Amethyst Jetaime]

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MariMoons wrote:

 

 I'll pay you 2k to mesh my body & skin

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Unless you created your own skin or got appliers for it from the creator, you coudn't use it on your mesh body.

[Medhue Simoni]

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

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MariMoons wrote:

 

 I'll pay you 2k to mesh my body & skin

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Unless you created your own skin or got appliers for it from the creator, you coudn't use it on your mesh body.

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Well, she could use the texture tho. Yeah, people might have to contact the creators of some skins, and ask for the actual texture, but I don't see why that is a problem.

[Sassy Romano]

Log on with an anonymous alt and ask 10 creators for the skin texture, report back on your success rate.

 

I get your overall idea but it's just yet another variant in the already huge Frankemesh nightmare. You'll not solve the problem for the mass of existing template derived content being sold, the problem has diversified too much already.

 

All you're really doing is creating yet another fork variant of "best mesh body in SL"

[Theresa Tennyson]

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Medhue Simoni wrote:

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

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MariMoons wrote:

 

 I'll pay you 2k to mesh my body & skin

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Unless you created your own skin or got appliers for it from the creator, you coudn't use it on your mesh body.

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Well, she could use the texture tho. Yeah, people might have to contact the creators of some skins, and ask for the actual texture, but

I don't see why that is a problem.

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Unlike "skins" and "clothing", "textures" can be put on any SL object. This means that if a skin maker gave out the actual texture someone could put it on a square prim attached as a HUD and take a screenshot, giving them a perfect copy of that texture. This is why mesh body parts use appliers instead of texture files.

The only unique thing about your proposal is the mesh head matched to the owner's slider values. Everything else either has been done (all major mesh bodies use basically the same texture mapping as the SL avatar; Slink and Belleza already distribute their weights to clothing makers) or has been tried and doesn't work (due to the limitations of rigging to bones, a single mesh body can't run the gamut of shapes from a small child to an extremely large adult like the default body can.)

The custom head idea might get some traction if you made it as a separate entity compatible with the major mesh bodies already on the market. The people you're trying to sell to are comfortable with multiple attachments and probably already have investments in systems that a new body will be incompatible with.

ETA - those observations are mostly for female bodies. There may be a market for a simple male body that will work with current clothing and will allow looks other than "varnished mutant bodybuilder."

[Sassy Romano]

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Theresa Tennyson wrote:

Unlike "skins" and "clothing", "textures" can be put on any SL object. This means that if a skin maker gave out the actual texture someone could put it on a square prim attached as a HUD and take a screenshot, giving them a perfect copy of that texture. This is why mesh body parts use appliers instead of texture files.

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Lets not introduce the fact that the moment it's rendered by the viewer, it's already in the local cache ready for use anyway which reminds me as I haven't checked recently, is the Linden Lab official viewer still showing the full UUID of the texture in the texture viewer debuggy thing window when inspecting faces like it was not too long ago?

[Medhue Simoni]

Well, you are probably right. I probably should have started this a long time ago. Lately, I've just had a few different people having me rig custom avatars for them, which led me to messing with mesh bodies and clothing. With Sansara starting soon, I probably should just concentrate on my Unity projects and characters. They should all be compatible with Sansara, if LL does it right, lol.

[Medhue Simoni]

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Theresa Tennyson wrote:

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Unlike "skins" and "clothing", "textures" can be put on any SL object. This means that if a skin maker gave out the actual texture someone could put it on a square prim attached as a HUD and take a screenshot, giving them a perfect copy of that texture. This is why mesh body parts use appliers instead of texture files.

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Well, it's not a perfect copy, as the resolution would be lower, cause you are taking a snapshot.

[Sassy Romano]

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Medhue Simoni wrote:

 

Well, it's not a perfect copy, as the resolution would be lower, cause you are taking a snapshot.

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It would be close enough for most but like I said, just snag the original from cache anyway *shrugs*.  I'd be more interested though in the response from creators, should you wish to try the experiment and see how many would send you the texture in the first place.  My guess is about 0

[Medhue Simoni]

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Sassy Romano wrote:

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Medhue Simoni wrote:

 

Well, it's not a perfect copy, as the resolution would be lower, cause you are taking a snapshot.

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It would be close enough for most but like I said, just snag the original from cache anyway *shrugs*.  I'd be more interested though in the response from creators, should you wish to try the experiment and see how many would send you the texture in the first place.  My guess is about 0

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You know what is funny? I criticised High Fidelity for just grabbing models from open webpages, but I somehow expected skin texture makers to hand out textures. Of course, there are other options, like those appliers or other ways, but it's still a decent point. Maybe, if all the models were the same, like the bodies, and free, then skin creators could just release their skins already on these models.

Really tho, rigging is a ton of work. I do a crapload of rigging now, and I really don't think I have the time for all this, especially with some of my other projects, and clients. I think I'm just getting too antsy about these new worlds coming. These custom avatar jobs have pulled me back into SL tho, and I am going to release a few new products soon.

[Conifer Dada]

The best thing would be if  LL could update the system avatar mesh by increasing the number of polygons while keeping all the current reference points, so that textures still fit.  Also they could add some new slider adjustments, like "knee position", so you can alter the thigh / calf lengths relative to each other, and split 'belly size" into two - "upper belly" and "lower belly" 

[Aethelwine]

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Medhue Simoni wrote:

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Ren Toxx wrote:

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Medhue Simoni wrote: [...] So, I'm just kind of wondering. How many think this is a good idea? Is it worth it?

---

Maybe you should ask the creators of the

EBody

. While perhaps not exactly the same idea, it sounds close enough.

---

Well, that's kind of the opposite of what I'm talking about, as far as mesh avatars. My thought is to simplify things. Have efficient avatars, that you just wear and go. Avatars that are easy to find clothing that fits. Something that works seemlessly with existing skin textures, and no need to match anything.

Heck, maybe I'm wrong tho. Maybe women enjoy all those options and playing around with their avatar. I'm a guy, so I could very well be thinking about this all wrong. If hands and feet are the problem, I could easily create new hands and feet, and match them to fit the skin textures.

Oh, and technically, with the testing I've done, I don't see any need to alpha out parts of the mesh body, because the weights can be so precise, that there is no need to hide any skin. I really don't understand why those mesh bodies have all those alpha options, as they should work exactly the same as what I tested. Bad weights are the only reason to have those alphas. That wouldn't be a problem with clothing made for these avatars I'm talking about, cause the clothing creators would be getting those weights directly from me, or whomever else might make these avatars.

Plus, with these mesh bodies, they don't take advantage of the extra materials that meshes have, and this is because the SL heads don't have theses features. So, with a full mesh avatar, your skin can look many times better, and eyes.

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Unless I am missing something the e-body is almost exactly what you are describing, except that it doesn't have a head and instead of dropping textures directly on to it, incorportates the omega applier system (which would seem more useful and allow greater compatibility).

No one can make clothes to fit the standard avatar that don't require alphas unless all your shape sliders are precisely the same. With standard sizing alphas are needed and with fitmesh the same because not all the shape sliders are "bones" (is that the right word) that the mesh clothes can be rigged to. I have never had a pair of trouser I could fit in to without an alpha layer, without making my legs so scrawny and chicken legged the alpha is the only option.

So far as I am aware most of the mesh bodies use materials or can use materials. I don't notice skin makers advertising their skins using materials... but then that would probably more likely put me off the skin than attract me. I rarely turn advanced lighting on because of lag... Having even more layers of high rezz textures on my and other avatars that I can't even see would impact performance far more than any gains for me and many others.

[Aethelwine]

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Conifer Dada wrote:

The best thing would be if  LL could update the system avatar mesh by increasing the number of polygons while keeping all the current reference points, so that textures still fit.  Also they could add some new slider adjustments, like "knee position", so you can alter the thigh / calf lengths relative to each other, and split 'belly size" into two - "upper belly" and "lower belly" 

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Yes to that, especially the knee position.

But it isn't going to happen. The best we can hope for is that they get it right in the new platform they are making.

[Medhue Simoni]

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Aethelwine wrote:

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No one can make clothes to fit the standard avatar that don't require alphas unless all your shape sliders are precisely the same. With standard sizing alphas are needed and with fitmesh the same because not all the shape sliders are "bones" (is that the right word) that the mesh clothes can be rigged to. I have never had a pair of trouser I could fit in to without an alpha layer, without making my legs so scrawny and chicken legged the alpha is the only option.

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This is exactly my point. It's not possible, because oddly enough, it wasn't made to be possible. Yeah, I know, doesn't make much sense, does it.? That said, it is possible, if both the body and clothing are mesh, cause they will morphs the exact same way.

As much as I would love it if everyone could work together and develop something that is easy and works for everyone, I just can't see spending so much time on it, only to get a small following. I have so many things going on as it is. Messing around with it all and making some clothes for these avatars was just so dang easy, and straight forward for a creator, that I just got a bit excited about it, and wanted to see if people really want it. Yeah, hopefully Sansara does it better, but I don't even think they've talked about it much internally yet. This is why I'm so insistant that LL let us Blender users in with the Maya users, so we can all bang out the avatar in a way that is sensible.