Linden Lab is building a NEW virtual world

[Freya Mokusei]

Well firstly, you're very mistaken if you think that Adult content decreases interest.  This hasn't ever been true for any online service ever. Second Life has a small marketshare for many reasons, but adult content deeeeeeefinitely isn't one of them. Any claims that growth in SL has been slowed by current adult content policies are entirely false - see the hordes of grown-up users who leave the sex-negative IMVU and join up here.

Personal and cultural feelings of shame and prudery aren't problems for plenty of us. Second Life has always been adult content positive and as you quoted, there's no plan to change this. Sex negative laws exist in the world - LL has no cause to cater to them if they're beyond California, USA.

Freedom is good. You don't get to push your old-fashioned standards onto anyone except yourself.

[Gavin Hird]

The question to what extent adult content will exist in the next version of SecondLife is what the target group for the product is. If you are going to cater to tens or millions of users, chances are it will be family oriented, and family oriented and adult content does not mix well.

So my prognosis is you will see little of it. Kindoff like what content can be traded on the App store – which happens to originate in California and cater to a 7+ audience. 

...I think most western Europeans find the current "adult" content policy hopelessy dated and prudish; full of double standards I don't even think we have had here – ever. 

[Monalisa Robbiani]

The most obvious solution would be the creation of two separate products, marketed separately, for two target groups which obviously would also overlap.

 

Any mass appeal virtual world has to have the option to be experienced totally SFW. Otherwise it will never reach beyond a small niche of users.

[Freya Mokusei]

Noted. I've spoken previously (maybe not in this thread, maybe not in this forum) about the importance of VWs appealling to <20 year-olds. This is by far the largest growth market for MMOs and VWs.

Second Life was at a disadvantage mostly because the maturity settings were an after-thought. Being shoe-horned in halfway through the product meant that their application was inconsistant and crazy - I'd hazard a guess that it annoyed more people than it could've ever protected. Hands were tied by the Tao, which has since been shelved. Any new venture by Linden Lab wouldn't have this problem, as this would have to be considered very early during development. It was an obvious failing of the original product.

I've worked closely with a variety of services (including IMVU during development, though this is a bad example) experimenting with maturity-based concepts - it's possible to do it well. LL now have this opportunity, and they're not shy to defend their adult content market. I don't know how visible adult content would be in Third Life/SL2.0 but I am certain it's not on its way out.

[Gavin Hird]

The biggest challenge for a new product that will be available on new platforms, which in reality are mobile platforms, is how do you keep the adult content off the devices of those who are underage. You'd have to have some very strong controls in place to implement this in a (unified) experience. I am sure it is technically possible, but you only need one media breaking story and it could all fall. 

I have given many reasons in the beginning of this thread why SL (current and new) needs to be broken up in parts to accomodate different legal, cultural and, of course also, the adult content aspects. It is in my view exceedingly difficult to combine these in one experience unless you are to offer a watered down "California dreaming" product that really don't appeal to anyone. 

The gaming debackle now unfolding is one example of the utter mess different legal realities alone can create.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

Do you know what the most popular current game series is? GTA... yep, no sex or violence in those games, right? Huge deterrent. None of the most popular selling games and or movies have adult themes, right?

If I were to go by your profile, I would guess you are a either a bot or an alt. 2010 birthdate and a blank profile... What DO you do in SL? No one could even take a remote guess.

You have to search for the adult content on the MP... I have yet to see anything about enslaving or abusing women on the front page.. I wonder if the MP is like google, and it shows you things that are relevant based on previous searches...

and the adult section of the forums is at the bottom.. Here's an idea.. never, ever use the Internet. you wont see any adult content. I have never understood why an adult would hide from adult content. Do you not date in RL? never watch a movie over PG rating? Must not watch any TV shows other than Disney and Nickelodeon.

[Innula Zenovka]

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Monalisa Robbiani wrote:

The most obvious solution would be the creation of two separate products, marketed separately, for two target groups which obviously would also overlap.

 

Any mass appeal virtual world has to have the option to be experienced totally SFW. Otherwise it will never reach beyond a small niche of users.

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That's what we've got at the moment.   One big virtual world that can be marketed separately to different groups of users.   If people want a totally SFW SL, then it's already very easy to have that.

 

[Gavin Hird]

There is also another aspect of selling the SecondLife v2 in the Apple App store (to use that as an example). If Apple - for any reason - think that you can access adult content via the SLv2 App, they are going to slap on it a 17+ rating and you have effectively killed any family target group. I assume the rules are pretty much the same for Google Play also. 

[Monalisa Robbiani]

There need to be two products, two brands, two marketing strategies etc. to make this work.

 

Right now, if you mention SL in a work or business related situation, people either have never heard about it or, if they have, it's like you suggested youporn as a tool or field to look into. It's best not to mention it at all.

[Gavin Hird]

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Monalisa Robbiani wrote:

 

Right now, if you mention SL in a work or business related situation, people either have never heard about it or, if they have, it's like you suggested youporn as a tool or field to look into. It's best not to mention it at all.

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^ THIS ^

[Monalisa Robbiani]

A virtual world is not a game. It's a platform that can host a variety of content. Like a city. You have a park, a school, businesses and you have adult entertainment which even in the most liberal countries has their own, safe place. This is not just about children and families. No one wants to deal with pornographic material against their will. It's harassment.

[Innula Zenovka]

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Monalisa Robbiani wrote:

There need to be two products, two brands, two marketing strategies etc. to make this work.

 

Right now, if you mention SL in a work or business related situation, people either have never heard about it or, if they have, it's like you suggested youporn as a tool or field to look into. It's best not to mention it at all.

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That rather presupposes that there's much of a market for SL in a work or business related situation, though.   Back in 2006 -2007, lots of businesses tried it, but it never really amounted to anything for most of them, and then LL wasted an awful lot of time and money on the ill-fated Nebraska project, aimed at businesses.   The invention of Adult Content as a category, and the whole forced migration to Zindra, was part of that, and all it achieved was upsetting a lot of actually existing customers in the hope of making SL more attractive to possible business and educational customers who never showed up.

Soon after I started with SL in 2007, I was tasked with doing an assessment of SL for business purposes by my then employers.   I rapidly concluded that, while it's great for social, recreational and creative purposes,  there's nothing we couldn't do less expensively and more effectively by getting hold of a copy of Open Sim and sticking that on our own servers, thus removing most of the worries about keeping our data confidential and maintaining control of the virtual environment.  

I've seen nothing over the last few years to change that, particularly now that video meetings and conferencing are so much more widespread than were they six or seven years ago.

[Gavin Hird]

It is interesting you came to that conclution in 2007, because Opensim has it's 7th birthday the weekend at the end of July, and how you possibly could assess the platform for any practical purpose at that time is beyound me. It barely ran at all! ;-))

The main inhibitor to any proliferation in the professional market is severe lack of content. Any business that wants to use it for anything practical have to contract someone for a sizeable period to get content into (purchase and rework) or produce own content. This makes the barrier to entry very high. There are a bunch of other factors, but lack of content is the primary. 

There is also a general reputation problem where virtual world more often than not is equated with virtual sex. 

 

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Monalisa Robbiani wrote:

A virtual world is not a game. It's a platform that can host a variety of content. Like a city. You have a park, a school, businesses and you have adult entertainment which even in the most liberal countries has their own, safe place. This is not just about children and families. No one wants to deal with pornographic material against their will. It's harassment.

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I didnt say it was a game.. They said adult content is a huge deterrant to people signing up.. I merely pointed out theat the best selling things in the US and probably the world are violent adult themed products.

That being said, there is no reason to prohibit adult content in the new platform. Nor do you have to deal with anything in SL against your will. You choose what you content you can see. No one is shoving anything in your face and saying "LOOK AT THIS PORN!!!"

[Gavin Hird]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

That being said, there is no reason to prohibit adult content in the new platform. Nor do you have to deal with anything in SL against your will. You choose what you content you can see. No one is shoving anything in your face and saying "LOOK AT THIS PORN!!!"

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Actually I disagree with that – you too often still see "masters" dragging round their "slaves" in all kinds of wierd configurations where they never should be shoving their lifestyle in your face.

The same - and maybe not directly porn - are snotty child avatars who get agressive when you don't want to accept participation in their role play.

There are many and a wide range of examples where people inadvertently and early in their introduction to SecondLife are being pushed on "lifestyles" they don't want to deal with, many of which are borderline pornographic or pornographic. 

[Monalisa Robbiani]

*I* know and personally I have no problems with adult content or lifestyles. It's about public perception of the product that limits its usage and user base. That's why I would love to see two versions of it in the future.

[Innula Zenovka]

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Gavin Hird wrote:

It is interesting you came to that conclution in 2007, because Opensim has it's 7th birthday the weekend at the end of July, and how you possibly could assess the platform for any practical purpose at that time is beyound me. It barely ran at all! ;-))

The main inhibitor to any proliferation in the professional market is severe lack of content. Any business that wants to use it for anything practical have to contract someone for a sizeable period to get content into (purchase and rework) or produce own content. This makes the barrier to entry very high. There are a bunch of other factors, but lack of content is the primary. 

There is also a general reputation problem where virtual world more often than not is equated with virtual sex. 

 

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I said "soon after," by which I meant a few months.    I started in SL a few weeks before OpenSim started up.   I did the assessment either later that year or early 2008.

In my line of work, the only possible use we could have for virtual worlds would be a form of teleconferencing, and the problems of guaranteeing confidentially on LL's servers was, and is, a huge issue (particularly since those servers are outside the EU).    Face-to-face meetings, phone calls and teleconferencing make far more sense if your business is anything to do with professional advice and services, at least to my mind.

I don't know about other businesses in detail, obviously, but I can think of few areas offhand, other than maybe architecture, where it wouldn't be better to look at photos, video and live cam of products rather than virtual versions of them.   I can see the point of viewing virtual buildings with the architect, but even then I think there are clearly less expensive and more secure options than SL.

 

 

 

[Gaia Clary]

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Gavin Hird wrote:

 

The main inhibitor to any proliferation in the professional market is severe lack of content. Any business that wants to use it for anything practical have to contract someone for a sizeable period to get content into (purchase and rework) or produce own content. This makes the barrier to entry very high. There are a bunch of other factors, but lack of content is the primary. 

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Ok... this is of course just some random thoughts and i might be completely wrong. however here are my 2 cents:

What about company starter pack ?

So if the main problem for business activities was the lack of pre existing content, then i believe this could be fixed easy. Some creative content makers could actually start thinking about "pre fabricated business units" wich could contain all the basics, like ready made scripts for intercomunicating between SL and company servers, basic environments (helpdesk, office infrastructure, whatever..., up to high quality "business characters" etc, etc... i believe the possiblilities are endless... well part of it is probably covered by land lords already. However...

Making the SL Marketplace ready for business ?

Actually i am not sure if such efforts have happened as i simply do not know where i should search, i see no "demos" for how companies could possibly use SL as a platorm. the market place has no category for "business applications", it is very time consuming to find anything of "high quality" whatever that means (honestly, its not so easy to find the realy cool content on the market place... try to find our addon there... its hard to spot :matte-motes-impatient:).

Find examples for working business

And also today's businesses might just not know how they possibly could use SL as a platform... However customer care comes to mind instantly... For example we are using SL for an admittedly very tiny small business, but it works great for us. We have a shop, we sell things there, we use the chat groups (well, ok, lets ignore lag...)  we get into contact with our customers much much more personally on any place on earth than we ever could do with email and website only. From a customer care point of view, you couldn't get better than that (in this regard at least) 

However ....

The true problems...

is imho the lack of customers. For us it works great because we have targetet our customer group pretty well (SL content creators). But for other businesses it is much much more complicated: They first of all need to get customers into SL (or better said the customers must already be here before the business chimes in).

And over the years it never has become easy to pull people in, because the barriers are just sooo high. It never was possible to add a simple link on a company website, and when user click he/she is beamed right into SL without need to first...

instsall the SL viewer, setup a character, read the TOS, ... and finally standing somewhere in a bulk of other disoriented characters... you know what i mean

So imho the solution is not to first make SL attractive for business. Imho the solution can only be: make SL attractive for users. If the comunity grows then business will come... I believe this is just the main point and i believe that is the reason why SL2 is in preparation.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Gavin Hird wrote:

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

That being said, there is no reason to prohibit adult content in the new platform. Nor do you have to deal with anything in SL against your will. You choose what you content you can see. No one is shoving anything in your face and saying "LOOK AT THIS PORN!!!"

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Actually I disagree with that – you too often still see "masters" dragging round their "slaves" in all kinds of wierd configurations where they never should be shoving their lifestyle in your face.

If what they are doing is aginst the SIM rating policy, AR them. If not, put on your big boy panties and deal.

ETA... are they trying to collar you or sell their slave to you? or are they just minding their own business?

The same - and maybe not directly porn - are snotty child avatars who get agressive when you don't want to accept participation in their role play.

Maybe not porn?!?!? child avs and porn should not be used in the same sentence. I agree that RP should be in RP SIMs, however, a child av is a child, a Master and slave are that, perhaps even in RL as well. Would you tell my wife to remove her silver collar in RL? Good luck with that.

There are many and a wide range of examples where people inadvertently and early in their introduction to SecondLife are being pushed on "lifestyles" they don't want to deal with, many of which are borderline pornographic or pornographic. 

Have you watched any television lately? I don't drink alcohol but there are plenty of commercials that "push" the awesomeness of drinking on me. How many vampire shows are there? Crappy sitcoms? Just ignore them or report them if they break the rules. SL isn't all about you. You can't cater to everyone.

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[Gavin Hird]

For video conferencing it becomes more of an annoyance than any help unless you are very firmly established inside the platform. The reason being all your tools are outside the platform and people nowadays do this routinely from their mobile devices. 

Outside of virtual sex (which in itself is a sizeable business case) the business use case are somewhat limited as we speak.

I believe there is a market for virtual tourism (both present and historical) and also as a 3D wikipedia type that could let people explore beyond what is possible in a 2D or even traditional multimedia narrative. 

[WADE1 Jya]

:catvery-happy: i'm a cat!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Gavin Hird]

Right!  As if AR-ing would make any difference! – You must be new here ;-)

A child AV is a grown up person trying to shove its roleplay in the face of people who mostly feel uncomfortable about it.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Gavin Hird wrote:

Right!  As if AR-ing would make any difference! – You must be new here ;-)

A child AV is a grown up person trying to shove its roleplay in the face of people who mostly feel uncomfortable about it.

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Wow, so, do you get this bent over any non adult human you come across? I have come across my share of child avs over the years, most don't push anything on you. They are acting like children. Would you expect a furry to act like a human or should they have animalistic tendencies? Most of the child avs i have come across don't even bother me, they just do their own thing. If you are in a store and they bother you, tell the owner. Man up. Grow a set. Or, just ignore them.

ARing does work if someone is seriously breaking LL rules. such as nudity or adult content in G sims.. ARing someone for being in a BD/sm role stupid.. as is getting bent over someones life style choice in SL.

[Gavin Hird]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

 ...getting bent over someones life style choice in SL.

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The problem with this thinking is that a significant number of signups go WTF on the first encounter with these lifestyles and turn in the door never to return. And they never, ever tell their friends about the experience unless to ridicule or degrade the experience. 

You also have to factor in that a number of what you call lifestyles in large parts of the world are called something completely different, may be illegal or be subject to prosecution, or even the harsh reality they or someone they know have suffered under. 

For something like virtual worlds "normality" must prevail in the first encounter and even all the time, but with the oportunity to travel to seek what you call lifestyles. 

Even though I live in a country where same sex marriages have been legal for close to 20 years, it is still seen as abnormal and even provocative by a large section of the population. Marrying same sex is most definately not a carreer move in 99% of the cases. 

Therefore, when you want to mass market a product or environment, you have to make it appealing to exactly what is the "normality" in the market you want to enter.  From that perspective the marketplace is for most a scary mirror of SecondLife even if you don't get to see the designated adult categories. 

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Gavin Hird wrote:

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

 ...getting bent over someones life style choice in SL.

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The problem with this thinking is that a significant number of signups go WTF on the first encounter with these lifestyles and turn in the door never to return. And they never, ever tell their friends about the experience unless to ridicule or degrade the experience. 

The problem with that thinking is its closed minded, childish and completely the opposite of what LS was intended for.

You also have to factor in that a number of what you call lifestyles in large parts of the world are called something completely different, may be illegal or be subject to prosecution, or even the harsh reality they or someone they know have suffered under. 

Where is it illegal to pretend to be a master and have a slave?

For something like virtual worlds "normality" must prevail in the first encounter and even all the time, but with the oportunity to travel to seek what you call lifestyles. 

Define normal.

Even though I live in a country where same sex marriages have been legal for close to 20 years, it is still seen as abnormal and even provocative by a large section of the population. Marrying same sex is most definately not a carreer move in 99% of the cases. 

That's sad for your country.. I happen to live in the very first state to legalise same sex mariage in the US and my youngest daughter was born the day it was signed into law.. Something she and one of my cousins is very proud of.

Therefore, when you want to mass market a product or environment, you have to make it appealing to exactly what is the "normality" in the market you want to enter.  From that perspective the marketplace is for most a scary mirror of SecondLife even if you don't get to see the designated adult categories. 

Nope.. They haven't said who they intend to market this to. They don't even know what it will be yet. They do know that adult hings will be allowed though, so your argument is moot.

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