Linden Lab is building a NEW virtual world

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:

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 Seems you need to get out more, and perhaps not restrict yourself to the SM scene.

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Here is a bit of free education for you.. The SM in BD/SM refers to Sadist and Masochist. When referring to a Master/Mistress slave relation ship it is always M/s. the Master/ Mistress always is referenced first. And it is ALWAYS consentual.

And now you know..

[kiramanell]

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:

How often do I have to repeat that I dismiss slavery no matter if the slave agrees?

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You know, there's a solid expression that goes 'If you only have a hammer, everything looks like a nail.' You have already decided that any submissiveness is slavery, therefore your mind stays closed. If you knew even the basics about human sexuality, you'd know, like it or not, that power is simply an integral part of how humans experience sexual (fantasy). It's why men fantasize about having sex with the chamber-maid, for instance: it's not that exercising power or violence even need an actual place in the fantasy: it's just the idea alone of having absolute control that some ppl find enticing. And, conversely, others simply like to be on the other end of that equation, and be submissive party.

This is all Psychology 101, btw. Nothing earth-shatteringly new. We live in a free world. You don't wanna be part of the whole bondage scene? Fine, don't. Nor do I, for that matter. But at least I can accept the sexuality of others, even when it differs from mine, without immediately resorting to calling it 'an affront to human dignity.'

[Thomas Galbreus]

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kiramanell wrote:

In other words, you *do* have a problem with pornographic content.

No. Only with porn that's outright misogynic. Which sadly applies to most porn.

 

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kiramanell wrote:

Yet a choice is precisely what you want to see taken away from others.

Of course. Not every choice is of the same value. I think it is of more value if people can choose a virtual world without misogynic porn. Right now that choice is taken away.

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kiramanell wrote:

sex simply sells, big time.

If something has the potential to appeal to the majority of people, no sex sells more. I gave YouTube as an example. No way it would be so widely used if they allowed porn.

 

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kiramanell wrote:

So, ultimately, it would appear it's actually the real world you're having have issues with

I usually don't see offline and online as "real" and "not real". I am against assaults on human dignity no matter if offline or online.

[Gavin Hird]

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:

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I usually don't see offline and online as "real" and "not real". I am against assaults on human dignity no matter if offline or online.

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Not to put words in your mouth, but I think the assault on human dignity he is talking about (int he context of SL), is the often right-in-your-face display of M/s relationships or slave behavior roaming around in all kinds ot outfit in non adult areas. 

Despite how open minded one think one is, most people will cringe at such display because they have RL associations of slavery that upsets them for reasons that has nothing to do with sex or porn. 

[Thomas Galbreus]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

So, discussing porn in SL doesn't have to get pornographic...

 

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You don't get it. I pointed out this meta discussion about whether SL2 should have porn content does not need to get pornographic, so it should of course take palce here and not in the "Adult" forum. Propagating slavery out of sexual or whatever reasons on the other hand should of course be restricted to  the "Adult" forum.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

So, discussing porn in SL doesn't have to get pornographic...

 

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You don't get it. I pointed out this meta discussion about whether SL2 should have porn content does not need to get pornographic, so it should of course take palce here and not in the "Adult" forum. Propagating slavery out of sexual or whatever reasons on the other hand should of course be restricted to  the "Adult" forum.

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The question was: Will there be Adult content in the new platform?

Not will there be porn.. That is your take on it. You are the one equating all adult activities as porn. Grow up.

[Thomas Galbreus]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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 When referring to a Master/Mistress slave relation ship it is always M/s. the Master/ Mistress always is referenced first.

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My goodness, your ego is so fragile that you must not only seek a submissive woman, but you have a crisis if her letter is not smaller than and after yours. LOL.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

I'm typing in blue...

Thomas Galbreus wrote:

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kiramanell wrote:

In other words, you *do* have a problem with pornographic content.

No. Only with porn that's outright misogynic. Which sadly applies to most porn.

 

So, are you ok with porn that is misandristic?

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kiramanell wrote:

Yet a choice is precisely what you want to see taken away from others.

Of course. Not every choice is of the same value. I think it is of more value if people can choose a virtual world

without

misogynic porn. Right now that choice is taken away.

No it isn't, just set your search parameters for General only and you won't see a thing.

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kiramanell wrote:

sex simply sells, big time.

If something has the potential to appeal to the majority of people, no sex sells more. I gave YouTube as an example. No way it would be so widely used if they allowed porn.

 

Saying sex sells doesn't mean just porn.. Sexual topics are allowed on YouTube as are sexy images and videos.

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kiramanell wrote:

So, ultimately, it would appear it's actually the real world you're having have issues with

I usually don't see offline and online as "real" and "not real". I am against assaults on human dignity no matter if offline or online.

Only as you define them. If a person doesn't feel assaulted who are you to say they are?

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[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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 When referring to a Master/Mistress slave relation ship it is always M/s. the Master/ Mistress always is referenced first.

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My goodness, your ego is so fragile that you must not only seek a submissive woman, but you have a crisis if her letter is not smaller than and after yours. LOL.

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Interesting, personal taste and sexual preference is now an example of a fragile ego..

[Thomas Galbreus]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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You are the one equating all adult activities as porn.

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I actually said "adult" (as used in this context, which I critizised) stands for "violence, porn, humiliation and slavery". Did I miss something?

[Thomas Galbreus]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

 So, are you ok with porn that is misandristic?

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No. But most porn is misogynic. I hope you can imagine there is porn that is neither this nor that.

As a man who loves women I admit, as I did before, that misogynic porn is especially disturbing to me.

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

 set your search parameters

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Stop being obtuse, the discussion went for pages about the negative effect of the bad reputation of SL because it contains porn, no matter if individual users can set search filters. There is no choice to have a virtual world without porn content and the resulting reputation right now, which is limiting growth.

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

 Sexual topics are allowed on YouTube as are sexy images and videos.

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I guess no one is deeply offended if avatars dress sexy, that's not what we are talking about.

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

 If a person doesn't feel assaulted who are you to say they are?

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There are also people who consent to cannibals eating them. No problem then?

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

 So, are you ok with porn that is misandristic?

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No. But most porn is misogynic. I hope you can imagine there is porn that is neither this nor that.

As a man who loves women I admit, as I did before, that misogynic porn is especially disturbing to me.

Most porn in the US is neither misogynistic nor mistanristic. It is two or more people having wild sex. I don't know what porn you are watching but I haven't really seen any that is misogynistic. You do know what that word means, right? It means hatred for women. HATRED. Yeah, lots of hatred in porn.

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

 set your search parameters

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Stop being obtuse, the discussion went for pages about the negative effect of the bad reputation of SL because it contains porn, no matter if individual users can set search filters. There is no choice to have a virtual world without porn content and the resulting reputation right now, which is limiting growth.

What bad reputation? What are you on about? There hasn't been bad news about SL in years. And we are talking about Adult activities, not just sex. Sex does not equal Porn by the way. You seem to be confused as to what is allowed in SL and what isn't. You can't walk around screwing whoever you want in public. except perhaps in an adult sim. even then, the sim rules must be followed. Unless  you are going to a free sex sim, you shouldn't see people having sex.

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

 Sexual topics are allowed on YouTube as are sexy images and videos.

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I guess no one is deeply offended if avatars dress sexy, that's not what we are talking about.

Really? I guess it would depend on the apparent age of the avatar, wouldn't it? You said sex stuff isnt on Youtube, yes it is.

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

 If a person doesn't feel assaulted who are you to say they are?

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There are also people who consent to cannibals eating them. No problem then?

Show one news report of this please? just one.

DO you mean the

guy in 2003

that was suffering from a severe psychiatric disorder and "a strong desire for self-destruction". Yeah, that was consensual.. not.

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[kiramanell]

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:

There are also people who consent to cannibals eating them. No problem then?

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Going off the deep end much?

Seriously, I had a teleporter once, that required me to activate my viewer's RVL plugin (so i wouldn't have to sit on the thang first). So I did some checking; and, sure enough, nobody can make you do anything, unless you actually specifically allow another to animate/control your avi. Hence, all master/slave situations you have ever faced (except for installing hard disks, lol) were, per definition, consensual.

[Thomas Galbreus]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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I haven't really seen any that is misogynistic. You do know what that word means, right? It means hatred for women.

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Yes, hatred, contempt, perhaps thirst for vengeance because of experienced rejections, and obviously a need to suppress and humiliate to patch a fragile ego, if not blatant sadism and cruelty. I insist the vast majority of porn is like that, but you won't see me going into the disgusting details.

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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DO you mean the guy in 2003

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There were more cases like that. Another one is covered here. The media coverage about these cases included reports about entire internet forums for cannibalism enthusiasts.

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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was suffering from a severe psychiatric disorder and "a strong desire for self-destruction". Yeah, that was consensual.. not.

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Being voluntarily submissive can also be seen as a form of self destruction. If someone leads a whole life like that, I can't consider it sane. So in your logic these cases also lack consent.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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I haven't really seen any that is misogynistic. You do know what that word means, right? It means hatred for women.

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Yes, hatred, contempt, perhaps thirst for vengeance because of experienced rejections, and obviously a need to suppress and humiliate to patch a fragile ego, if not blatant sadism and cruelty. I insist the vast majority of porn is like that, but you won't see me going into the disgusting details.

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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DO you mean the guy in 2003

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There were more cases like that. Another one is covered

here

. The media coverage about these cases included reports about entire internet forums for cannibalism enthusiasts.

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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was suffering from a severe psychiatric disorder and "a strong desire for self-destruction". Yeah, that was consensual.. not.

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Being voluntarily submissive can also be seen as a form of self destruction. If someone leads a whole life like that, I can't consider it sane. So in your logic these cases also lack consent.

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Now you are just being silly. Show one reliable source that shows submission is self destructive.. What you consider sane is something I don't want to be. You want to enforce your own blinders on, tunnel vision, moral code on the whole world. Thank the gods that we live in a world where personal choice and freedom to live your life how you want is the majority.

[Thomas Galbreus]

I said in your logic it lacks consent. Truth is of course all participants in even the most tedious porn consent to it, the motive of the women usually being money.

I think porn and related lifestyles have been discussed enough. We must agree to disagree over the sanity and wisdom of that.

To get back on topic: If you like the "adult" content or not, point was the effect of that content on the reception of SL in the public eye over the years. That is a big deterrent for many, either to use SL or to be open about it. Both is an obvious obstacle to achieve the potential maximum of users of a virtual world if it is true that this potential might be the majority of internet users.

Perhaps Philip Rosedale is reading this thread and thinks "Yeah, pixel porn was quick money, but to earn billions instead of millions we must go the Facebook / YouTube route and avoid this deterrent from mainstream usage this time with HF." SL might then stay the niche it is now.

[Dresden Ceriano]

How sad for you that you seemingly can't separate human, interpersonal, sexual relations with the fantasy scenarios set forth by the porn industry.  I would feel sorry for anyone who can't differentiate between reality and make-believe.

Every human relationship involves control dynamics in one form or the other.  BDSM relationships are only different because those who choose to become involved in one choose to set up those dynamics beforehand, then rely on trust and communication to redefine those dynamics as needed.  There's just as much give and take between the participants of a BDSM relationship as there are between those in more conventional arrangements... it just takes place on a different level.

The only criteria with which you've used to vilify Drake and his relationship with his wife are your own ignorance and preconceived, entirely misplaced bias.  This is not wholly unexpected from someone who clearly lives their life wearing blinders.  Disney does not encompass the whole of human existence, no matter how much you wish it would.

...Dres

P.S.  You keep insinuating that you've no choice but to continue interacting in an adult-content enabled, virtual world, when that is far from the reality of your situation.  I suggest you either seek out those virtual worlds, presently in existence, which are limited to G-rated content; create your own virtual world to your exact specifications or STFU about it.

ETA:  Wearing a collar is no different than wearing a wedding ring... simply put, they are both representations of a commitment which has been made.

[Thomas Galbreus]

I wonder if you folks get paid by Disney.

Sure some Open Sim grid that is tiny even compared to the niche that is SL is a wonderful alternative.

Shut the **bleep** up yourself.

He clearly brought up the collar as a sign of him being the "Master".

[Innula Zenovka]

Adult sims represent about 18% of the whole grid and about 23% of all private sims.   To be fair, we don't know how many of the private sims are full sims and how many are homesteads, but, equally, we know that Zindra is about the one bit of mainland where the land market is quite buoyant while the mainland as a whole tracts of abandoned land -- historically, about 13% or 14% , and very little (if any) of that on Zindra.

My point is that Adult Content represents a lot of SL, both in terms of the grid itself and LL's income stream.    Furthermore, a great deal of Adult Content is sold to be used privately on Mature land -- sex beds and the like.  I've no way of knowing how large a section of the overall SL economy it comprises, but it has to be a considerable amount.   

To my mind, trying to get rid of a large number of actual paying customers and actual content creators, in the hope that they'll be replaced by people who would be flocking to SL if it wasn't for the customers and content creators SL already has, would be a very risky strategy.  

M tried it back in 2009, when they set up Zindra and moved all Adult stuff off the Mainland proper.   You weren't around then, I think, but LL were saying, in terms, that this was why they were inconveniencing us Adult Content creators so much, to attract new customers who had told LL that they'd be flocking to SL if Adult Content were less visible, and in the event it was a complete fiasco.    The brutes had lied!  They didn't turn up, after all, and M and that crop of marketing people didn't last much longer. 

Ebbe Linden has already said, shortly after he was appointed, that he doesn't want to emphasise Adult Content too much in SL's marketing but he accepts that we're here and an important part of SL, and he's also said that SL2 will be very much like SL in this respect.   To my mind, he's got it right (and he's certainly got access to market research and so on that neither you nor I have seen).    SL is lots of different things to different people.  

To my mind, and particularly for SL2, LL should be stressing all the different stuff that's available to do.   People who've been put off by the sleazy reputation SL picked up in 2007-08 aren't going to have their minds changed by what's actually here or isn't here.   Showing people who aren't particularly interested in Adult Content (or who don't think they are) that there's plenty else to do here is the way to go.   

In my country, the UK, the Government last year told ISPs that all new customers had to be offered "child friendly" content filters, turned on by default.   Last week there was an official report, greeted with general amusement, that showed the vast majority of new subscribers -- between 80% and 90%, depending on the ISP -- were turning the filters off.  

One of our leading IT industry magazines, The Register, commented of this, "It's almost as though prOn were actually rather popular." 

 

[Dresden Ceriano]

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

"It's almost as though prOn were actually rather popular." 

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Your kidding me!

...Dres

[Thomas Galbreus]

Thank you for your thought-out and well-informed post.

Yes, it will be a risky step for any of the new worlds to drop the porn market. It could indeed happen that porn enthusiasts stay away and not enough new poeple get interested. But (only?) in big risk lies big profit. And unless anybody tries, we won't ever know if a virtual world can have mass appeal.

I think porn filters by ISPs are a different thing. Of course there is porn that is not problematic amongst aduldts, and it would be quite cruel to cut people off of it who are in a lonly phase of their life without a relationship. But all these porn sites are specialized in porn, often in a specific form of porn, and these services can be used in secret - people usually see sexuality as a very private part of their life. (The equivalent would be virtual environments specialized soley in pixel porn.)

A virtual world, on the other hand, can only prosper beyond just a niche if it offers a rich variety of content and people can be open about using it. If a virtual world gets identified with porn content, people won't be a lot more eager to tell their friends, parents, colleagues or neighbours about using it than they are eager to tell them about the site they found that deals with the fetish they are craving - even if they are more into real porn (or into real erotic activity) than into pixel porn so wouldn't use that part of the virtual world anyway.

[Dresden Ceriano]

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:

real porn (or into real erotic activity)

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It truly saddens me that you are unable to differentiate between the two and, therefore, feel you must conflate them with each other.  They are not the same.

...Dres

[Drake1 Nightfire]

You keep saying that SL has been painted as a porn market.. I don't see any recent news about SL, at all. Good, bad or indifferent. You want to live in the far past and refuse to move forward, fine with me.

Ebbe has already said that adult content will be allowed in the new platform. I suppose we won't be seeing you there.

:matte-motes-big-grin-squint:

[Dresden Ceriano]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

I suppose we won't be seeing you there.

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We should all be so lucky.

...Dres

[Thomas Galbreus]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

I don't see any recent news about SL, at all. Good, bad or indifferent.

But that would be typical of an enterprise that is seen as a mediocrely successful porn service.

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

Ebbe has already said that adult content will be allowed in the new platform. I suppose we won't be seeing you there.

I've been in SL longer than some CEOs though. (No offense EA.)

ETA: And in EA's defense I'd like to point out that he said it before he had the chance to read my arguments. ;-)